Roland c-190 or Viscount Cantorum VI

[ChrisB]

I have been using a Roland C190 for two years now and over all I am fairly satisfied with it. It is used mainly as a home practice instrument for my role as organist to two churches with pipe organs. I also take the instrument around with me to the care homes where I play for the old folks. On occasion it has provided the accompaniment for services in small churches/chapels where there has been no other instrumental provision. I would say that it is in use for approximately twenty-five hours a week in all of its roles.
So, how has it performed?
The organ sounds are excellent, and making full use of the alternative voices available, allows for a wide range of classical music styles. (Though in the early days, I had to keep resetting the instrument to its factory settings after getting carried away with the possibilities !). I fairly quickly abandoned the 'two-manual' function as more nuisance than it was worth, with hands having to be often at the extreme ends of the keyboard to cope with the octave shift.
A volume (swell) pedal is absolutely essential for this instrument, and I obtained the Roland EV-5 for about twenty pounds and it works fine. Setting the volume pedal (which only affects the Man 11 sounds) to zero in the closed position, allows for interesting swell effects as you open the pedal while playing Man 1 sounds. Experimentation is everything !
I said above that the organ sounds are excellent. I would modify that verdict in respect of the Trumpet voice which is pitiful. The alternative sounds available to the Trompete settings are interesting but not much to my liking - you may feel differently. The instrument redeems itself however with the orchestral brass sound. This can be used as one of the best digital trumpet sounds I have heard - and its position in the Man 11 group means it can be brought in on the swell pedal to superb effect.
The orchestral sounds are generally of a better quality than the organ sounds, but the design team at Roland must have had a collective brain fart when deciding what to layer with what. It is impossible to layer strings with piano, or voice with piano or strings. These are unquestionably the most popular layers in other digital keyboards, and the configuration of the Roland in this regard is baffling.
The instrumental solo function (only available on Man 11) is effective, but takes some getting used to. Any degree of detache in the right hand will immediately shift the solo sound to the left hand which can be annoying, but practice makes perfect - as they say.
The Roland C190 is a complex instrument and any new user will be spending a lot of time with the handbook open. Time spent this way though will pay dividends.
Amplification. 'Out of the box', the Roland is a perfectly good home-use instrument, with more than enough volume and bass-to-treble quality to cope with whatever your home-use requirements might be. My own use of the instrument away from home, has involved using a stand-alone keyboard amplifier (15inch bass and a one and seven eighths treble thingy, 200 watts, and with a seven channel EQ) I had to pay attention to the bass effect with this kit and make sure the output sound didn't turn to mush. In fact the appearance of the EQ ended up as a 'down-turned mouth' picture, which is opposite to that normally found, but it works.
I also plug the Roland in to my p.a. kit, (a pair of passive twelve inchers plus 'tweeters' and fed from a 2 x 200 watt mixer amp). This particular setup has coped well accompanying over a hundred and fifty people in a church building which can seat three hundred. Levels were never more than two-thirds max. Thinking back, I recall that I also added in the keyboard amp to provide a bit of whoomph at the bottom end.
All in all, the C190 is a versatile and interesting piece of kit, a bit quirky in operation, and as I have found it, able to cope far beyond its designed use parameters.
Lastly, I also have a Viscount Vivace 40 organ which I keep in one of 'my' churches. The MIDI function allows me to play either instrument from the other with a whole range of interesting possibilities which I am still exploring. Needless to say, that Roland orchestral brass sound seems to figure quite a lot in my experiments !
I am sorry that I came late to this topic, but hope this has been useful for anyone interested in this instrument.
Best wishes
Chris Baker - Durham UK

[criptlyon]

Hello,

Thank you for your very precise post about orchestral sounds and amplification, ChrisB.

In my humble opinion, it seems however that the Roland C190 is attractive for its versatility, the possibilities to play orchestral sounds.
But when we compare the pipe organ sounds, which one is better? (when the goal is to play electronic pipe organ)

Well, as I said, I never heard the C190 in real, but today I found the mp3 on the Roland website (http://www.rolandce.com/classic/prod...Roland%20C-190), and my question is: are these real samples from C190?
When you compare these mp3 with samples from Cantorum VI, it looks like that Roland ones are midi files! Listen to Demo 17 (Passcaglia from J.S.Bach)...

Here you can find samples from the Cantorum VI (http://www.viscountorgans.net/download.htm). I must admit that I'm very surprised with the difference. (If Quiktime does not work, you can find mp3 versions here: http://www.viscount-organs.pl/utwory%20mp3.html)

What do you think when listening to samples?

Another example, with the same music score:
- Roland: Demo 10
- Viscount: Cantorum 6-8.mp3
Roland "human choir" sounds are far better, but for me pipe sounds are not as good as Viscount ones.

As the difference seems sometimes to be obvious with web samples, perhaps it would be a good thing that dmfuller (see above) who owns both Cantorum VI and Roland C190, could tell us if samples are OK for the Roland?

[ChrisB]

Hi criptlyon,
The demo set on the Roland site is simply the set included with the instrument itself. They are MP3s. Yes, all the sounds you hear are available on the instrument, though a fair amount of experimentation is required to obtain some of them. I agree that demo 17 is poorly registered, but it is nevertheless an MP3. I would say that it was over ambitious to expect this monumental piece to come across well on a small instrument like the C190.
The Viscount samples similarly, are those included with the instruments. I am slightly suspicious of the ambient effects, but not having heard a Cantorum 'live' so to speak, I am unable properly to judge. The set in your first link is exactly the set contained within the Vivace range, and I am able on my V 40 to reproduce all of the sounds. This suggests that Viscount are being honest with their Cantorum demos also.
Generally, I agree with you that the Cantorum sounds seem better that those of the C190 in the recordings offered. As you say, it needs someone with both instruments to give a definitive verdict, but this would neccesarily be subjective. For myself, I am happy with the Roland organ sounds, and am able to achieve just about all I require from the instrument.
Best wishes
Chris Baker - Durham UK

[criptlyon]

Hello,

Please excuse me if I was a bit too much "one sided minded" when I spoke about samples. It's true that I personnaly find Viscount samples better, but I also true that the C190 ones are real good, as well as the instrument is a more vesatile, more "open" instrument than the Cantorum...

Finally, I think the "goals" of both instruments are not exactly the same, and in your case, it seems your choice was the good one, as you already have a V40
In my case, for now I don't have any organ, my Cantorum VI will be at home in two weeks... Nevertheless, I heard and tried it in the shop, and the samples are exactly the demo songs included in the instrument.

About the "hands at ends of the keyboards splitted" phenomenon, if I understand well and if I say something true, the Cantorum VI can shift splitted manuals in 4' and 16': this could be an advantage for this instrument.

Best regards

[criptlyon]

Hello to all! I now have my Cantorum VI for two days... and it sounds astonishing for a portable organ!

I can now really assure that the Viscount samples (see some posts above) are exactly what it sounds in real.

As a sound comparison is finally difficult without having both Cantorum VI and Roland C190 at home, I can nevertheless list down several cool features I tried last week end on my Cantorum:

- "tracker touch": I never played on a real mechanical transmission pipe organ, so I can't say if it is close to "reality". It is somewhat like a very hard synth touch. The white keys are in a simili ivory with two engraved horizontal lines near black keys, and with some chamfers on lateral sides, they look very nice.

- different temperaments and different sound styles (baroque 1 and 2, romantic, symphonic) are clearly different, and I am quite happy to have the possibility to choose which kind of sound I prefer for which score.

- manual 1 octave up and manual 2 octave down (chosen separately or both): very very useful when splitting the keyboard: the two voices can overlap each other without any problem!

- possibility to record what I have played to listen again and track down mistakes (many mistakes these days...)

- possibility to adjust individually the volume of each voice

I need to practice a lot to inspect and try the usefulness of some features, but all in all, I'm very happy with my new instrument.

The sound volume it plays is sufficient for my room in my small flat, without any external amplification. I don't push the volume further than half for the "plein jeu", I am too afraid of neighbors coming to the front door yelling "stop it! you pipe organ fanatic!"

[dmfuller]

I'm looking to sell my Cantorum VI........

It is for sale in the Antique Shop I run in Petersburg, VA.

The Oak Antique Mall
400 N. Sycamore Street
Petersburg, VA 23803

[Regulator Edit: Personal email address and store url removed]
[Please use the PM system for personal contact if interested in this item]

I've had it about 2 years....I'm asking $1,500.00 US for it and accessories.

The Oak accepts Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express.

I'd prefer pick-up by buyer, but will help if buyer arranges pick-up & delivery. Buyer responsible for all shipping and handling charges.

[criptlyon]

Hello dmfuller,

Even if I'm not going to buy your Cantorum VI as I already have mine, may I ask you if you have some "special" informations about this organ?
As for example: if you were satisfied with it, if some technical problems had appeared along its short life (2 years), if you ever contacted Viscount for whatever reason, what do you think about its stops, its features, etc..?

In fact, I would appreciate any feedback (bad or good) you have about the Cantorum VI

Thank you!

[criptlyon]

OOpps, sorry, I did not remember your old posts about the Roland and the Cantorum in this thread...

Please don't take into account my previous post.

[dmfuller]

Sorry for the delay! Samples are great on both--it all depends on the reverb settings--even a pipe organ in a dry room sounds terrible!!!

For the c190 I have it set to gothic church reverb to the max setting--it gives you that lingering of overtones so often left out of digital instruments. (This really makes the Trumpett sound great on here--in fact with the reverb it sounds like the Skinner trumpet I have at 'my' church!)

For the viscount--again--maximize the reverb--it makes all the difference in the world.

The roland is by far more american sounding, and the viscount more european sounding.

If you have to pick only one--

If you need a versitile PORTABLE insturment--pick the Roland--I use this for everything from weddings to christmas & birthday parties, at the old folks home and everything in between. This case is made of plastic--very sturdy and light weight.

If you want a soley classic digital organ--that is too heavy to be considered portable--most of the case is made of MDF--basically sawdust held together with glue--very very very heavy......

In fact sometimes I regret buying the viscount--as it is nearly $1,000.00 more here in the US than the roland, plus it is so heavy and cumbersome to move, i've had it stored in a cupboard for nearly a year. However it has awesome sound--I recorded some songs on it--a bunch of my "pipes only" buddies couldn't tell--and the few tracks I recorded on a pipe organ were deemed to be the digital ones!!! Ha!!!

[criptlyon]

Hello!

Well, when you say:

However it has awesome sound--I recorded some songs on it--a bunch of my "pipes only" buddies couldn't tell--and the few tracks I recorded on a pipe organ were deemed to be the digital ones!!! Ha!!!

it is exactly why I chose the Viscount!
Please note also its "tracker touch" and simili ivory keyboard which is very well done.

[John Sayer]

I evaluated both instruments. The Roland's 76 keys are a waste of time, neither piano nor organ. The plastic key touch is also rather unpleasant.

The Viscount has a much more satisfying key touch, though slightly fewer voices and no Man I - Man II coupler. The 4 Baroque/Romantic/ Symphonic sound libraries offer some very attractive, authentic sounding stops. The 'split' function takes a bit of setting up but can be useful for chorale plreludes etc. You need a few moments between pieces, however.

Overall, i'm very pleased.

JS