Organ LIVE recording...

[contraophicleide32]

Hi to all organ lovers!!!
From indications given by some of you, it's some week I'm looking for the wright equipment to take live recording for organ. I'm waiting to buy a digital mixer recorder (with hard disk and CD burner incorporated) to take recording without a portable pc.. but.. the first factor that could make the difference to clarity, and power of sound is the.. MICROPHONE adopted to!!!
Looking on EBAY.. how many microphones.. I'm going crazy!??..
So.. a question for all who have tried to take some live recording: what aobut the kind .. or the model of microphoone I shold use?!?
I'm opened to every suggestion given aobut...

Best regards to all,
Manuel

[musicalis]

Hello

select a microphone with a "cardioide" diagram. The best type for organ recordind is a "dynamic" microphone (with neodyme magnet). This able to record very loud sounds.

To record the highest note of the organ, you can use an "electret".

[Krummhorn]

Hi manuel,

For my personal recordings, I use a Zoom H4 Digital Recorder.

It handles all the frequencies of the organ quite adequately with CD quality sound. One can record in either WAV or MP3 format. It has its own built in cardioid mics, but external mics can be used as well.

The attached file is partly the very traditional Jesu Joy of Mans' Desiring followed by the chorale, the way I play it as a prelude for church. The instrument is a 9 rk, M.P. Möller Pipe ... the acoustics are zip - none - the sound stops before one takes their hands off the keys, but it illustrates what this little digital recorder can do.

[Flute'n'Pedal]

Hi Manuel,

Krummhorn is right. The Zoom H4 is a great machine that doesn't need mikes, but can be hooked up to them later if you want. I strongly urge you to consider buying it, or the cheaper model, H2. I believe you can't get better quality for your money.

LlL

[AllanP]

The reed in the recording sounds somewhat unique. What is it supposed to be?

The organ sounds great.

[contraophicleide32]

Hi! I thank all of you for your kindness!!!
What fantastic recording did I hear!!?! Krummhorn, before listening to your recording I couldn't believe that a recorder so little was able to take an incredible recording (such as I listened to) both in clarity and in power of sound from a so variable source (in tone and dynamic) as the organ is!??!?!
Really..when you drop down rank after rank, you can listen that the two cardioids report without any distortion the real growing up in dynamic level!?! Think that... listening with a friend to a recording take by Telarc, at the First Congregationale Church in Los Angeles in which Michael Murray played some piece of Bach.. with a striking clarity we heard, when chords of 8,10-fingers hold down, the recording level going quiet down for the saturation of the signal taken by microphones!?! It's really boring..when you are sitting in your chair..with your eyes closed..imaginating to be in the church while hearing the organist playing... when you know exactly the sequence of notes arriving one by one.. it's very undesiderable when, as you're waiting a powerful full chord, you "feel" as a wall between you and the organ, a wall that come and go just when you would feel the power of the organ growing up!?!
But..Krummhorn, what about the position and distance from the organ you put the H4?!?
Ando also.. how're the divisions and pipes placed?!?
Then..another question to you, if I can...: what do you think about a stereo recording (for organs wide in the disposition of pipes) or better.. about a "5.1" recording?!?

I thank you for the recording you took and that I had the possibilty to heard!!!
Best Regards to you, and to all who will take live organ recording and will share their own experiences!!!
Manuel

[Krummhorn]

The reed in the recording sounds somewhat unique. What is it supposed to be? The organ sounds great.

Hi Allan,

Thanks for the compliment. The reed is an 8' Trompette - because its physical location is at the front of the Swell chest and directly behind the shades, the box was closed for the solo, which changes the overall sound characteristics of that rank compared to the box being open. For the latter part of the chorale, the box is wide open. The reeds have been voiced to speak out over the rest of the organ - I like chorus reeds that "bite", and these do. The entire organ runs on 3" wind.

Hi! I thank all of you for your kindness!!!
What fantastic recording did I hear!!?! Krummhorn, before listening to your recording I couldn't believe that a recorder so little was able to take an incredible recording (such as I listened to) both in clarity and in power of sound from a so variable source (in tone and dynamic) as the organ is!??!?!
Really..when you drop down rank after rank, you can listen that the two cardioids report without any distortion the real growing up in dynamic level!?!

But..Krummhorn, what about the position and distance from the organ you put the H4?!?

Hi Manuel,

In this image you can see the pipes and the console. (The pic is also in the forum gallery amongst others I've posted of this same organ). The H4 was placed on a hymnal on top of the organ console and the mics were aimed directly at the pipe work. The distance between the console and the pipes is about 15 feet at most. In later recordings I have mounted the H4 on a camera tripod (the mounting for such comes with this recorder) and stationed the recorder further back.

. . . Ando also.. how're the divisions and pipes placed?!?

The Great is exposed and the Swell is enclosed, directly behind the Great. The pipes to the left (in the pic above) is the working facade containing the last 12 notes of the 8' Principal and the 16' Gedeckt. Downstairs, in the sancuary - view of altar would be a better placement for recording, but the lack of a remote control for this recording device makes that impossible. I only record in the wee hours of the morning (2:30am to 4:00am) as the church is next to a major state highway and the road noise during the day would affect the recordings. I can't talk my wife into going to church at that hour and handle the button pushing on the recorder .

Then..another question to you, if I can...: what do you think about a stereo recording (for organs wide in the disposition of pipes) or better.. about a "5.1" recording?!?

I thank you for the recording you took and that I had the possibilty to heard!!! Best Regards to you, and to all who will take live organ recording and will share their own experiences!!! Manuel

For wide dispositions, it would be better to be further back, but not so far back that we lose the "feel" of the organ, where we are then recording the "building" rather than the "organ in the building".

I have no experience in a 5.1 recording ... I leave that answer to those more qualified than myself. I am a professional church organist (in my 48th year) but an amateur of sorts when it comes to the various methods for recording.

Indeed, I have heard recordings like you mention where the sound level appears to drop as more organ is added. This is called automatic leveling, which is an option on the H4.

When I set up my H4, I set the sound levels manually ... that is, I adjust for the max "gain" with full organ, then the dynamic levels of the organ change just like I play it ... I set the levels manually for the Bach piece, which is why you actually feel the organ building up when ranks are added.

I'll be posting additional clips of my recordings using this H4. As Flute n' Pedal stated, the H2 is cheaper - about a hundred dollars cheaper - and it will also do a great job of recording. I did almost a whole year in research on these devices before I finally chose the H4. I added the optional 2GB card to my unit (it came with a 512MB card) which allows me to record for 37 hours in MP3 format at 256 bit (CD quality).

[contraophicleide32]

Hi, I thank you for the details!!! I asked you for "5.1" recordings, only for an idea that my curious brain made: take for example a 3 manual organ.. with the great division at 6,7 foot from the ground (or 2,3 foot over organist's head) the swell division (enclosed)surronding the great, with the pedal pipework in two division placed laterally at the great and swell division and with the positive pipework (enclosed or unenclosed may be)rear the organist (such in a baroque organ..): placing a microphone capturing each of these division, I think that.. should be WONDERFUL listening to a recording in which you can hear each division in a single-different audio track!??!
And with a digital recorder that can take 4,5,6.. different "DIGITAL" tracks..that's OK TOO!!!! But, today.. technology is too expensive!?!
I'm interested about this things because.. I'm a 26 years-old italian organist and usually I play at Sunday in my church (in a littel town of Padova), on a 2 manual organ built in the first 1900, the inauguration concert for which was performed by Joseph Bonnet, a composer whose organ pieces I love!! This organ was born with 4 manuals.. but.. who that bring the name of "organbuilders" from themself without respect for this incredible instrument but only to.. make money.. divised this organ in two organs, each of them having two manuals. If you're interested, only for more knowledge, I could send you the specification and some photo!!!
My biggest dream is that to become an... organbuilder!! Here, in Italy.. is some difficult thing.. but.. everything I could learn or konw (also from precious experiences or knowledge of others who want to share their knowledges) is a true TREASURE without price for me!!! I studied organ, having my diploma in 2006.. and last december, I end the University as Industrial Engineer.. loving the acoustical-point of view of the organ.
I tried to make build some wooden pipe: hear "how" the sound comes out from "what you done" and solving the problems of pipe's speech.. is FANTASTIC!!!
But, trying to build something more or greater... mmm.. "Mum.. I thought to biuld an organ!" .. and she: "What???...sawdust everywhere!???"..
So..I love the organ..and I'm never tired to play!!!!

Have a nice day!!! And still thanks for your reply!!!
Manuel

[Soubasse]

I'll put in another vote of support for the Zoom H4 which I'm purchasing soon based soley on the specs and recommendations from several friends and colleagues in the audio business. It is by all accounts a marvellous little device.

Most of my own organ recordings to date have been handled with a Sony DAT machine and a pair of the old (and surprisingly cheap) Realistic PZM mics. Because they are Pressure Zone (rather than diaphragm based), they have an excellent frequency response. I also took the liberty of tinkering with mine and increased the power supply to 9 volts so that the lower and upper frequency response was greatly increased. All the organ recordings from thereon turned out superbly well (even if I do say so myself!)

However, I strongly suspect that once I have the H4, I shan't be able to go past it for ease and convenience (to say nothing of being able to use my faithful old PZMs with it as well).

Good luck Manuel.

[Aristide]

I see the last post in this thread dates from 7 months back.
How are the experiences with the Zoom H4 so far for all of you that have purchased one ? Is this tool suitable for recording in my usual 'workspace', i.e. a church building 80m deep with a symphonic organ of quite intense dynamics ? Or which other equipment should perhaps be considered ?

[Soubasse]

The H4 has not disappointed at all - it's a superb recorder and the only one I've ever used that records things exactly the way I hear them. It's also quite popular down here. I recently performed at a concert and when I went to setup up my H4 in an unobtrusive corner opposite the organ, there were two other folk there, one with an H4 and another with an H2. The guy with the H4 was also setting his up with the tripod attachment - on a tripod identical to mine. We had to write our names on a sticky label and put it on our respective machines

[Krummhorn]

. . . How are the experiences with the Zoom H4 so far for all of you that have purchased one ? Is this tool suitable for recording in my usual 'workspace', i.e. a church building 80m deep with a symphonic organ of quite intense dynamics ? Or which other equipment should perhaps be considered ?

I've had my H4 for a bit over a year and still amazed at its faithful reproduction on sound. I agree with Soubasse's comment about it reproducing what my ears are hearing.

For the price paid, this is one excellent recorder - I too mount mine on a tripod when recording at the church. I think it would do fine in any environment, including churches with long naves.

[Aristide]

Hi Soubasse and Krummhorn, thank you for your quick replies. It seems like the Zoom H4 is a good and affordable tool to go with. I have checked out some local forums on sound recording, and several people there had good comments on it. I repeatedly read that one should install the updates from their website, which makes the H4 accept SD cards larger than the standard 2GB. As the H4 is readily available in shops locally, I will buy one in the next couple of days or weeks.

[Krummhorn]

You're welcome, Aristide

Neat that those units are readily available in your region .. I had to order mine through the internet as no local shops here carry that kind of sophisticated gear.

Sage advice on the software updates, although I've not even come close to using 2GB for any recording projects, so far.