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Originally Posted by jhnbrbr
Is there a line between
a) sticking a carving knife in a child's arm and
b) sticking a hypodermic syringe in a child's arm?
Of course there is!
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No, there isn't. The first is an attack, the second is a medical procedure.
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Is there a line between
a) infecting a child with a virulent disease and
b) infecting it with a mild form of the disease as a vaccine?
Of course there is!
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No, there isn't. The first is attempted murder, the second is a medical procedure.
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Is there a line between
a) a punch to a child's head given in anger and entailing a risk of injury and
b) a slap to a child's buttocks given for the child's own good and entailing no risk of injury whatsoever?
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There may be a difference in
intent but that does not equate to a difference in the
consequences. Neither of (b) in your first two examples result in anyone being harmed. You are
assuming that no harm is done by spanking and then going on to argue that no harm is done. That is circular reasoning.
What you seem incapable of grasping is that this is not a matter of logic. We are speaking of the real world where
looking with your eyes and seeing is how we get our results. Whenever anyone really looks at spanking, they find harm being done. It is that simple. You can choose to deny this reality all you want, but until you actually
look with your own eyes, you are nothing but a willfully ignorant fool blindly supporting the harming of children. Why not be a decent person and simply look before believing instead of spending your life lying to yourself?
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I do not believe the relatively recent tendency to describe the second occurence as "violent" is either honest or helpful.
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Can you please tell me what your belief has to do with anything? What I am saying is either true or false, and I promise you it has nothing to do with what you believe. What
is hard to believe is that you are stupid enough to blindly convince yourself of things on a personal whim and then accuse the thousands of
truly honest people who have dedicated their entire lives to finding the truth to be dishonest. Amazing.
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If I was to tell you that two men were having a violent confrontation in the street, you would not expect to go out and find them slapping each other about the buttocks!
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I'm not sure if you're intentionally missing the point, or not, so I'll state it plainly:
The harm done by spanking children is not mainly physical. It is emotional and psychological. It is harm by virtue of the negative results on the child's behavior, their aggression, their impulsiveness, their ability to resolve issues without violence, to control their anger, to create stable and healthy relationships, and to engage with their own children in positive non-abusive ways.
All of these problems are very clear in every study done on this issue. If none of this were actually happening, there wouldn't be a problem. If you spank your kid once, but are the model parent otherwise, will these problems be an issue for your child? Of course not. One spanking has an almost negligible impact on a child. Almost. The more it is done, and the more aggressive the violence, the more these issues take hold.
I ask you...if this is true...
if, and there are more effective ways to modify your child's behavior that don't have these effects on them...
should spanking be done?
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Equally, I could never in a million years accept that my infant teacher of long ago, Mrs S, who was adored by every child who ever knew her, was a violent person.
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The fact that you refuse to accept anything that you don't like is nothing but willful ignorance. This is another example of
your dishonesty. No one said that the occasional act of mild violence makes someone a violent person.
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It could still be true that spanking is misguided, but I have yet to be fully convinced because the experts (and JLS) seem to me to be exaggerating the risks (but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken).
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You actually believe that every single one of the thousands of people that have been studying this for decades is exaggerating? Do you honestly think this is possible?
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This again is a completely invalid argument, because no sensible person would punish a child (by any means) unless the reason for the punishment was fully inderstood.
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By this last comment, I can see that you are utterly dishonest regarding this issue. You are fully aware (unless you are mentally disabled) that parents get angry at their child's behavior, grab them, spank them, and send them on their way. But even if the parent spanks their child and also teaches them why what they did was wrong, the lesson still isn't in the spanking.
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but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken
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If I ask you an honest question, will you give me an honest answer?
Why are you arguing with me about this?
You admit that you have no knowledge of this other than your own personal experience, yet you are convinced that you are right, despite the fact that all of the knowledge we have tells us that you are wrong. Why do you argue? Isn't the only reasonable thing for anyone to do is to suspend judgement until they know what the truth is?
You don't know. Being convinced that you do in the face of real knowledge is nothing short of
delusional.
" The essance of reproduction,to feel and re-create that which was felt and impared by the creater,does not exclude- within natural limitations-the assertion of creative power" - Dr. Hugo Goldschmidt.
~. 
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