What happened to Discipline?

[Contratrombone64]

I just don't think that being hit as a child was a difficulty for me, it's you that think this AND then expect all here to agree (not the point of the thread surely). The fact that you only agree with YOUR side of the story and then go on and on about it to me, at least is tedious!

[JLS]

Strange, I don't recall going on and on about it and you are entirely free not to read my posts.

I just don't think that being hit as a child was a difficulty for me, it's you that think this AND then expect all here to agree

I also don't recall saying anything about you, or claiming that I expect anyone to agree with me. I simply came across a thread full of ignorance regarding an issue that I believe to be important so I made a couple of posts hoping to get some people thinking. You do realize that there are people in this thread claiming that it is a good thing to break children's noses and knock out their teeth and whip them and beat them with blunt objects? And mine are the posts you are complaining about...?

[Corno Dolce]

JLS,

Please do share who is thinking that it is good to break children's noses and knocking out their teeth. Maybe you misread or misinterpreted what someone said. Prove to us on VOL with facts, not ad hominem statements.

Cheers,

CD

[wljmrbill]

I never thought a pop- on the butt hurt anyone..sure the hell didn't us as we grew up. I think that is what is wrong with many kids these days.. they do not repsect authority, teachers or parents actually because they know they can get by with just about anything these days. A thought.

[JLS]

You actually want me to repost what people have already said? I assume you've read the thread. Several people have gladly recounted the tales of their beatings. Not one of them said that they thought such abuses were wrong or out of line. Instead, they tell us these things in support of it being done. People have very clearly stated that they believe the main reason there is so much juvenile delinquency and misbehavior is because children are no longer being beaten properly. On top of that, none of the others who have posted in this thread prior to myself said anything about such abuses being wrong, yourself included.

Here are a few examples, not that you haven't already read them and agreed with them:

I stole something one time and my dad got a tree limb and tore me up. That tought me a lessen. Now days it's called child abuse. I don't.

I can tell you I had my share of bloody noses from being on the receiving end of the back of my mother's hand...but I deserved it for mouthing off. I can't believe that people refuse to discipline their children nowadays.

If I did that to my parents I would be spitting out some teeth after I got back slapped. ... Then again I have seen the child welfare people stick their noses where it didn't belong because the parent did use discipline. The government needs to but out and take care of their own business.

I agree if you give someone a good caning, they will remember it well.

One day I accidently got a little too close to the road and mother really laid it on me with a switch leaving marks on my legs.

I was smacked with a belt, a shoe, a wooden spoon or I guess whatever was to hand when I was young (good thing there wasn't a meat-cleaver nearby?!

Cheers,

JLS

[JLS]

I just noticed this on a second read through:

Personally I am very much for discipline, however I think that violent parents are a terrible example for their children, and beating your child in the name of discipline is still violence. I am very much for not spoiling children and for giving them restrictions, but violence is wrong. It is just as wrong to beat your child as it is to beat your wife, because your child too is a human being.

At least there is a tiny bit of hope in this thread full of ignorance.

[Corno Dolce]

JLS,

Your implying that I accept gross physical abuse leaves me breathless. I cannot answer for your attestations, since we obviously don't know one another from every Tom, Dick, and Harry. Methinks that some of the statements by other VOL member's experiences in childhood can have been overly dramatised, however, since neither you nor I were there at that time and place we simply cannot know, n'est-ce pas? I can attest to my fanny having been fanned by my father when I did something really stupid. But such stupidity was seldom repeated.

Yes, it can be a traumatic experience for a child to get whacks on the fanny - when the child is caught in the act of real stupidity - Yes, there is a fine line between physical abuse and whacks on the fanny. Truly, physical abuse is inhumane and illegal. But there comes a time when a misbehaving child needs to know that their behaviour is unacceptable, either by their parents or by society.

Since this is an Open Debate Forum anyone can interject and give their $0.03 cents worth, either from a child psychologist, parent, social worker, law enforcement, judicial, or other point of view. My point is that each and every parent has to be aware of their Responsibilities. I have four infant children who are already exhibiting their very own individual characteristics. Each one is very diffferent - I have to be fair to all of them - I have to prepare them for life, that when they are grown up they will be able to make the right decisions and not become entangled with law enforcement - that they will make decisions with Love and Respect for others.

Herein endeth my homily...Thanx be to God!

Humbly,

CD

[JLS]

Your implying that I accept gross physical abuse leaves me breathless. I cannot answer for your attestations, since we obviously don't know one another from every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

I may not know you personally, CD, but I do know that you have actively participated in this thread, have seen these posts and said nothing. Your complacency is just as bad as actually supporting them. How will things change if good people don't speak up?

Methinks that some of the statements by other VOL member's experiences in childhood can have been overly dramatised, however, since neither you nor I were there at that time and place we simply cannot know, n'est-ce pas?

This is your excuse? You've decided not to believe them? Well, assuming they're not making things up, what do you think about their parents?

I can attest to my fanny having been fanned by my father when I did something really stupid. But such stupidity was seldom repeated.

Yes, it can be a traumatic experience for a child to get whacks on the fanny - when the child is caught in the act of real stupidity - Yes, there is a fine line between physical abuse and whacks on the fanny. Truly, physical abuse is inhumane and illegal.

I'm not seeing this line people keep asserting is there. I ask you politely what I asked in a previous post:

Why is one "inhumane and illegal" while the other utterly acceptable? Isn't the former merely a more aggressive form of the latter?

But there comes a time when a misbehaving child needs to know that their behaviour is unacceptable, either by their parents or by society.

Agreed. What I don't understand is how inflicting trauma on them teaches them this. How on earth is hitting someone a learning process? There are no words in a physical attack. There are no thoughts of any kind. How can there be a positive lesson? All that happens when you spank a child is the association of physical and emotional suffering with a specific act and that the people who the child is dependent on for safety and nurturing is violating that trust. The child learns absolutely nothing about why the act was wrong or unacceptable. Because they associate suffering with that act, they may avoid it for a short time or find better ways to not get caught, but they have certainly learned nothing constructive from you about it and with each attack you have lost a little something very dear between you and your child.

My point is that each and every parent has to be aware of their Responsibilities. I have four infant children who are already exhibiting their very own individual characteristics. Each one is very diffferent - I have to be fair to all of them - I have to prepare them for life, that when they are grown up they will be able to make the right decisions and not become entangled with law enforcement

I completely agree. But CD, if what I have said about spanking turns out to be true, wouldn't you, as a responsible new parent, want to know? If spanking your children is the worst way to teach them what it means to be good people, and is actually going to make it liklier that they will end up in trouble, isn't that something you want to know?

that they will make decisions with Love and Respect for others.

Exactly.

[jhnbrbr]

I'm not seeing this line people keep asserting is there.

Is there a line between
a) sticking a carving knife in a child's arm and
b) sticking a hypodermic syringe in a child's arm?
Of course there is!

Is there a line between
a) infecting a child with a virulent disease and
b) infecting it with a mild form of the disease as a vaccine?
Of course there is!

Is there a line between
a) a punch to a child's head given in anger and entailing a risk of injury and
b) a slap to a child's buttocks given for the child's own good and entailing no risk of injury whatsoever?

Of course there is! Just because two occurences have certain features in common does not make them one and the same. I do not believe the relatively recent tendency to describe the second occurence as "violent" is either honest or helpful. We use different words to distinguish between each end of the spectrum -we don't say blue is just another case of red. If I was to tell you that two men were having a violent confrontation in the street, you would not expect to go out and find them slapping each other about the buttocks! Equally, I could never in a million years accept that my infant teacher of long ago, Mrs S, who was adored by every child who ever knew her, was a violent person.

It could still be true that spanking is misguided, but I have yet to be fully convinced because the experts (and JLS) seem to me to be exaggerating the risks (but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken).

There are no words in a physical attack. There are no thoughts of any kind. How can there be a positive lesson?

This again is a completely invalid argument, because no sensible person would punish a child (by any means) unless the reason for the punishment was fully inderstood.

[JLS]

Is there a line between
a) sticking a carving knife in a child's arm and
b) sticking a hypodermic syringe in a child's arm?
Of course there is!

No, there isn't. The first is an attack, the second is a medical procedure.

Is there a line between
a) infecting a child with a virulent disease and
b) infecting it with a mild form of the disease as a vaccine?
Of course there is!

No, there isn't. The first is attempted murder, the second is a medical procedure.

Is there a line between
a) a punch to a child's head given in anger and entailing a risk of injury and
b) a slap to a child's buttocks given for the child's own good and entailing no risk of injury whatsoever?

There may be a difference in intent but that does not equate to a difference in the consequences. Neither of (b) in your first two examples result in anyone being harmed. You are assuming that no harm is done by spanking and then going on to argue that no harm is done. That is circular reasoning.

What you seem incapable of grasping is that this is not a matter of logic. We are speaking of the real world where looking with your eyes and seeing is how we get our results. Whenever anyone really looks at spanking, they find harm being done. It is that simple. You can choose to deny this reality all you want, but until you actually look with your own eyes, you are nothing but a willfully ignorant fool blindly supporting the harming of children. Why not be a decent person and simply look before believing instead of spending your life lying to yourself?

I do not believe the relatively recent tendency to describe the second occurence as "violent" is either honest or helpful.

Can you please tell me what your belief has to do with anything? What I am saying is either true or false, and I promise you it has nothing to do with what you believe. What is hard to believe is that you are stupid enough to blindly convince yourself of things on a personal whim and then accuse the thousands of truly honest people who have dedicated their entire lives to finding the truth to be dishonest. Amazing.

If I was to tell you that two men were having a violent confrontation in the street, you would not expect to go out and find them slapping each other about the buttocks!

I'm not sure if you're intentionally missing the point, or not, so I'll state it plainly:

The harm done by spanking children is not mainly physical. It is emotional and psychological. It is harm by virtue of the negative results on the child's behavior, their aggression, their impulsiveness, their ability to resolve issues without violence, to control their anger, to create stable and healthy relationships, and to engage with their own children in positive non-abusive ways.

All of these problems are very clear in every study done on this issue. If none of this were actually happening, there wouldn't be a problem. If you spank your kid once, but are the model parent otherwise, will these problems be an issue for your child? Of course not. One spanking has an almost negligible impact on a child. Almost. The more it is done, and the more aggressive the violence, the more these issues take hold.

I ask you...if this is true...if, and there are more effective ways to modify your child's behavior that don't have these effects on them...should spanking be done?

Equally, I could never in a million years accept that my infant teacher of long ago, Mrs S, who was adored by every child who ever knew her, was a violent person.

The fact that you refuse to accept anything that you don't like is nothing but willful ignorance. This is another example of your dishonesty. No one said that the occasional act of mild violence makes someone a violent person.

It could still be true that spanking is misguided, but I have yet to be fully convinced because the experts (and JLS) seem to me to be exaggerating the risks (but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken).

You actually believe that every single one of the thousands of people that have been studying this for decades is exaggerating? Do you honestly think this is possible?

This again is a completely invalid argument, because no sensible person would punish a child (by any means) unless the reason for the punishment was fully inderstood.

By this last comment, I can see that you are utterly dishonest regarding this issue. You are fully aware (unless you are mentally disabled) that parents get angry at their child's behavior, grab them, spank them, and send them on their way. But even if the parent spanks their child and also teaches them why what they did was wrong, the lesson still isn't in the spanking.

but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken

If I ask you an honest question, will you give me an honest answer?

Why are you arguing with me about this?

You admit that you have no knowledge of this other than your own personal experience, yet you are convinced that you are right, despite the fact that all of the knowledge we have tells us that you are wrong. Why do you argue? Isn't the only reasonable thing for anyone to do is to suspend judgement until they know what the truth is? You don't know. Being convinced that you do in the face of real knowledge is nothing short of delusional.

[Contratrombone64]

I think it's time this thread was closed as it has by FAR outrun its useful purpose. I has now turned into an "I'm right" and "you're wrong" match between one individual and the rest of us.

[rojo]

There's no such thing as a perfect parent. Parenting is a tough job, perhaps the toughest. That said, I thought it might be useful to some folks to post some links offering suggestions for disciplining children.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/positiv...iscipline.html

http://kidshealth.org/parent/questio...RelatedArticle

http://www.cps.ca/caringforkids/beha...Discipline.htm

http://www.toronto.ca/health/children/discipline.htm

[JLS]

Thank you for that addition, rojo. There are so many parents who really don't know what to do about discipline. They fall back on spanking because they have never been presented with appropriate alternatives. Good links!

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I'm not claiming I'm right, CT. I'm claiming that the entire world of psychology, human development and science is right. Are you so blinded by your own need to deny that you may be mistaken about this that you would ask the admins to censor any further discussion? You would deny others the opportunity to learn something? If you are so annoyed by my attempt to educate, simply leave the thread.

[Krummhorn]

In response to receiving several notices regarding this particular discussion thread, we wish to point out that topics with strong contention are allowed as they spark interest, and thus discussion activity.
When the discussion turns into personal attacks of other members (ad-homs) we will intervene.

A reminder of the forum rules might be in order, too:

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[methodistgirl]

I'm sorry I ever started this thread by now.
judy tooley