What happened to Discipline?

[Corno Dolce]

JLS,

May I ask if you are in posession of the Philosopher's Stone? Apparently you are trying to monopolise a thread where you spout off about everyone else being wrong and only you are right. I loved my father dearly just because he took the time and interest in my upbringing and teaching me wrong from right and paddled my behind when it was necessary. Furthermore, I refused to put him into a senior citizens home when he became infirm. I fed, clothed, bathed, gave physical therapy, and much else when he couldn't care for himself anymore.

I see too many elderly people whose children don't give a damn about them spend days, weeks, months, and years without ever seeing their children. I later find out that the children are just waiting for their parents to pop off so that they can claim their inheritance. The kids are spoiled brats and have never been taught to love, honor, and respect their parents and others, and authority.

My wife and I see differently than you in re to child rearing. Again, you and I were not there when certain commenters were getting 'torn into', busted teeth, limbs, and the like. In no way do I wish to minimise what can actually have happened. I truly empathise with those who have suffered terrible physical abuse inflicted by their parents.

You say that I am complacent? How do you know? Do you know how I spend my days or who I am in contact with? No! you don't. Nor do I know who you are in contact with or how you spend your days and thats because its none of my business. I have no problem if you think that I am an ass**** or worse.

On this site I take as well as I give - Many on this august of forums have many specialties which they may choose or not choose to divulge. Many are smarter than I am and I know that there is much that I do not know.

CD

[Dorsetmike]

Very well put CD.

The posts you reply to put me in mind of someone I knew who frequently said "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"

[Corno Dolce]

Honorable Dorsetmike,

The privilege of being a commenter on this forum is often very humbling for me - especially since there are so many finely intellectual people who are members of MIMF. Our Ms. Judy who started this thread had good intentions and she need not feel bad for having begun it. We all have had different childhood experiences.

Hopefully JLS is not too steamed with my retort and will continue to contribute commentary. As I mentioned before, there is much that I do not know and will never know but I am happy for the little I do know and for the graciousness of the many who share so freely on this forum so that I may grow in my knowlege base.

Respectfully yours,

CD

[JLS]

Of course I'm not upset by your post. I am always willing to engage with people about issues that I believe are important. What I do take issue with, though, is dishonesty. I do not recall accusing you of being an ******* nor making any comment whatsoever about your relationship with your parents. Your last response to me was clearly a dodge. It has almost nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread. I asked you a very honest, very straightforward, and very pertinent question and you refused to acknowledge that it was even asked. I must assume from this that you are incapable of considering anything that puts your personal beliefs in question. This question goes right to the heart of this matter. It's answer is the very reason for this thread's existence. I'll ask again in the hopes that I am wrong about you, and everyone else in this thread:

If spanking your children harms them, do you want to know?

If you do not respond with a "yes", I wall take your answer to be "no" and we will both know what kind of a man you are.

I ask this question of everyone in this thread. Your answer will make it clear who you really are.

[JLS]

The posts you reply to put me in mind of someone I knew who frequently said "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"

More dishonesty. Please show me what facts have been put forth by anyone other than me? That quote is the perfect description of my opponents, and your answer to my question will tell us whether it applies to you as well.

[Dorsetmike]

As a child I was spanked, as a parent I spanked my kids, they in turn spanked theirs. Over recent years I have watched the behaviour and attitudes of youth deteriorate with each generation of do gooders, most of whom I suspect have no children of their own, wailing on about applying sanctions and similar useless deterrents.

In the days of school masters being able to administer a caning to the hands or bottom I never heard of pupils attacking staff. A detention is no deterrent, mostly it gives them a chance to do their homework.

In the animal world adults discipline their young by mild force, man has done the same for thousands of years, I have not heard any mention in history of youth behaving as they do now.

No spanking etc sounds very good on the surface but it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that it is not working as intended.

In my experience, a few light slaps or spanks administered in early years are usually sufficient to bring home the fact that doing what one is told is a good idea, as soon as the child is old enough to understand what parents mean when they say "no" or "do not" . At the same time the parent should explain why the behaviour is not acceptable.

First "offence" say "no" firmly and explain why you are saying "no"

Second offence within a short time, repeat the above a bit more firmly holding the child and making them meet your eye.

Third offence (again within a short time) repeat the "no" and give a sharp slap that will sting but not hard enough to mark. The quicker the slap or spank is given the better, so that the "offence" is associated with the "ouch".

Never raise your voice to a shout, never lose your temper. Always explain and ensure the child understands why the behaviour is not acceptable. Always discipline immediately, never come out with "wait till your daddy/mummy gets home"

[Dorsetmike]

JLS I take strong offence at being called dishonest.

The most obvious facts to me can be seen in the behaviour of a great number of the younger members of present day so called civilisation.

Example, a man remonstrates with youths damaging his car, they set on him and he ends up severeley beaten in hospital.

Example three youths kick and beat a week old faun to death.

Example a young man in a bar breaks a bottle and grinds the end into the face of another who accidently nudged his elbow, the victim lost an eye and needed over 100 stitches.

This sort of behaviour is becoming more prevalent, almost common. I am not saying it could never have happened in the past, just that it never approached the level that now exists.

[JLS]

JLS I take strong offence at being called dishonest.

The most obvious facts to me can be seen in the behaviour of a great number of the younger members of present day so called civilisation.

Example, a man remonstrates with youths damaging his car, they set on him and he ends up severeley beaten in hospital.

Example three youths kick and beat a week old faun to death.

Example a young man in a bar breaks a bottle and grinds the end into the face of another who accidently nudged his elbow, the victim lost an eye and needed over 100 stitches.

This sort of behaviour is becoming more prevalent, almost common. I am not saying it could never have happened in the past, just that it never approached the level that now exists.

That is your personal perception. Is it accurate? Do you have any rational reason to believe that crime is more rampant now than it was 100 years ago? If there has been a change, what is that change due to? Is it from a lack of discipline? Is it from an increase in population? Is it from the spread of urban development? Is it from continued industrialization? Is it from a rise in teenage pregnancy? Is it from a rise in child abuse? Is it from any number of countless other possibilities or a combination of some or all of these? Or perhaps it is only your personal perception and has no basis in reality. Perhaps crime hasn't risen in recent history and you simply believe it has. The simple fact that you hold a belief about this is dishonest, for you haven't looked to see the answer. You lie to yourself and in doing so lie to us when you speak of it.

Likewise, do you know that spanking children does no harm? Have you looked? If you haven't and hold any belief about it, then you are once again being dishonest in the very same way.

I ask you, then, to prove your honesty. Answer the question I posed in post#94...

[JLS]

In the animal world adults discipline their young by mild force, man has done the same for thousands of years, I have not heard any mention in history of youth behaving as they do now.

As an aside, I'd like to point out just how absurdly false your beliefs are. Man has, throughout our history, been the single most violent and warlike species in the history of the world. We're the only species to engage in mass organized acts of violence against each other. We are the only species to wage war on each other, commit acts of torture on each other, and many other atrocities. Only a century ago, here in the States, it was perfectly legal to carry a gun and shoot each other down in the streets. How on earth could anyone possibly look at history and claim that violence is a recent phenomenon? Either you have absolutely no education(which I don't think is true), or you deceive yourself(which I think is the case).

A perfect example:

Since the tragedy at Columbine, school shootings have been shown in the media more and more. This has led people to believe that acts of violence in schools had increased. That is absolutely false. In the decade prior to Columbine, violent crime amongst youths had decreased every single year(according to the U.S. Department of Justice's own findings). School shootings had actually become less common. What had changed was that the media discovered that showing school shootings on tv meant higher ratings. People were thus led to believe that violence amongst youths had increased when in fact the truth was the opposite.

[jhnbrbr]

The point is, JLS, that this is not a simple issue by any means, and there are powerful arguments on both sides, so that it is quite unacceptable to use words like "liar" and "dishonest" when people put forward a reasoned and balanced argument (as DorsetMike has just done) even if you disagree with it. If you were talking to your child, would you be as aggressive, disrespectful and judgemental as you are to your fellow forum members?

I do not have children and if I did I would aim not to spank them, but I'm not saying i never would. And to answer your question, of course I would want to know if it was harmful, and if I believed it was I would stop completely, but as things stand at present I do not consider the case proven either way.

[Dorsetmike]

I can't speak for 100 years ago, I'm only 75. I base what I have written on my experiences and observations during those 75 years.

I did not say that violence is a recent phenomenon, only the type of mindless violence perpetrated by undisciplined youth. Maybe if I had your rose tinted spectacles things might look better

How much experience of parenting do you have .............. if any.

Come to that, how much and what sort of experience of life have you had to be able to ignore the breakdown of common decency and behaviour in many places.

From your attitudes and stated beliefs here I would guess in your 20s or maybe 30s, and from a privileged background.

[methodistgirl]

I'm 49 years old and had to discipline my nieces and nephews which I
felt was their parent's job when their parents were sitting one their
kuesters playing Nintendo or on the computer playing bejeweled.
They had one little boy who wouldn't stay away from playing in the
kitchen sink. All they would would say was, "Aunt Judy, could you
get him from the sink? After the fifth time I had enough of it.
I had to be the one to discipline him. The dad was 20 something
and his mom was still in her teens which needed discipline for getting
into an early pregnancy herself. Believe me people like that don't
need kids.
judy tooley

[JLS]

The point is, JLS, that this is not a simple issue by any means, and there are powerful arguments on both sides, so that it is quite unacceptable to use words like "liar" and "dishonest" when people put forward a reasoned and balanced argument (as DorsetMike has just done) even if you disagree with it.

If I claim that the information we have today shows us very clearly that spanking is harmful and someone responds by denying this without looking at the information, are they being honest?

If you were talking to your child, would you be as aggressive, disrespectful and judgemental as you are to your fellow forum members?

Of course not. Are you my child? Since you are not, is this question honest?

I do not have children and if I did I would aim not to spank them, but I'm not saying i never would. And to answer your question, of course I would want to know if it was harmful, and if I believed it was I would stop completely, but as things stand at present I do not consider the case proven either way.

That is certainly your judgment call to make. If you are aware of the understanding that has been reached by professionals in the field and are well versed in the data, then my accusations of dishonesty are not directed at you. If you have concluded that the data is somehow misleading or false, I would like to know why. I am always open to new information, so long as it is relevant.

[JLS]

So far, the answers to my question are:

YES - 1

NO - 0

Would anyone else like to answer?

[JLS]

I'm 49 years old and had to discipline my nieces and nephews which I
felt was their parent's job when their parents were sitting one their
kuesters playing Nintendo or on the computer playing bejeweled.
They had one little boy who wouldn't stay away from playing in the
kitchen sink. All they would would say was, "Aunt Judy, could you
get him from the sink? After the fifth time I had enough of it.
I had to be the one to discipline him.

It is understandable that you would lose your temper in such situations. What I am trying to impress upon you, though, is that there are better options than violent discipline that you are not aware of. If that is true, don't you want to know about them?

The dad was 20 something
and his mom was still in her teens which needed discipline for getting
into an early pregnancy herself. Believe me people like that don't
need kids.
judy tooley

I completely agree.