What happened to Discipline?

[JLS]

I can't speak for 100 years ago, I'm only 75. I base what I have written on my experiences and observations during those 75 years.

That's the point. Your personal experiences have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. What don't you get about that? Explain why your personal experiences are more valid than the work of thousands -- all of whom are far more informed on this subject than you? Explain why you're right and they're all wrong...

I did not say that violence is a recent phenomenon, only the type of mindless violence perpetrated by undisciplined youth.

You can say this all you want, it still won't be true. I already gave you the facts: violent crime amongst youths has declined steadily in recent decades. Do you honestly believe that your tiny little experience on this world gives you enough information to contradict established fact?

Maybe if I had your rose tinted spectacles things might look better

Look who's talking. I am dealing with real information and you are peddling your personal beliefs for the purposes of defending your own selfish feelings.

How much experience of parenting do you have .............. if any.

How many children I have is irrelevant. I have said nothing of my personal feelings or opinions of this issue.

Come to that, how much and what sort of experience of life have you had to be able to ignore the breakdown of common decency and behaviour in many places.

It is common for older people to perceive the world in such ways. Your grandparents I'm sure said the same thing about your generation. Just because the young do not value the things that you do, does not mean that they are worse people. It more likely means that they have evolved past your antiquated ideas of what "decency" means. If you are referring specifically to crime rates, then you should look at the information I'm talking about. It clearly shows that the more violence that is inflicted upon children, the more likely it is for them to become criminals. That is true despite what you believe.

From your attitudes and stated beliefs here I would guess in your 20s or maybe 30s, and from a privileged background.

My age and background are irrelevant. What is true, is true.

[JLS]

Dorsetmike,

Would you kindly answer the question I posed in post# 94?

[rojo]

I'll go ahead and say 'yes' to your question, JLS.

Children can try one's patience to the utmost, and demand so very much. I don't think anything can prepare one completely for the reality of what it's like to actually have a child/children; it can be extremely stressful, and any sane person can lose patience. I think it must be even more difficult for parents who are in less than ideal circumstances. Not every situation is described in a text book. That said, I'd be inclined to believe reputable experts who have researched this topic (or any topic for that matter.) I'm glad that there are so many resources for parents to turn to these days. I hope that today's parents (and children, of course,) will profit from all this information gleaned from the research that's been done, and will be able to implement alternative disciplining measures.

[Dorsetmike]

If you are referring specifically to crime rates, then you should look at the information I'm talking about. It clearly shows that the more violence that is inflicted upon children, the more likely it is for them to become criminals.

I have never condoned violence, a slap or spanking as I understand it is far from violence. My dictionary defines violent as "use of excessive force". In that respect one could almost define your posts as violent.

I still maintain that there is no substitute for experience and that on this issue that is extremely relevant which is probably why you try so hard to dismiss it, facts such as you mention are always open to suspicion.

Why so much emphasis on facts, in this day with the internet and google you can find facts to support any view. I recall it being said that the devil could quote the scriptures in his own support, so not much changes over the years!

Researchers can easily skew findings to suit their theory, just tailor the tests, groups or the questions you ask so that you avoid conflicting answers, publish it on the internet and whoopee, new facts. Political, religious and commercial groups are exceptionally good at this, which are you following?

The problem is that people like yourself with some sort of axe to grind jump on these facts and stuff them down other peoples throats regardless of their validity other than "I saw it on the net/TV/Newspaper so it must be true."

You could say, "guns kill people so ban all guns", it's not the guns that kill it's the person wielding it

OR

"Cars kill people so ban cars" again it's the person behind the wheel to blame in the majority of cases, a few may be attributable to mechanical failure, (that can be reduced by periodic safety tests)

Your question in post #94 is about on a par with "have you stopped beating your wife?" and does not need an answer; and your implication that no answer is proof of guilt is yet another example of your naivety. From your avoidance of my question re your age etc I would infer that you have something to hide.

By the way I still find your continued diatribe against all who disagree with you to be extremely obnoxious; you are behaving exactly like a spoilt child who is in dire need of some of the discipline we are discussing.

[JLS]

I have never condoned violence, a slap or spanking as I understand it is far from violence. My dictionary defines violent as "use of excessive force". In that respect one could almost define your posts as violent.

I see. You consider my argumentative style closer to violence than hitting children. If I came to your house in anger over your posts in this thread and hit you, you wouldn't consider that violence? What if I went to someone's house and hit their kids? Again, not violence?

Regardless of your attempt to define your way out of this, the use of the word "violence" is unnecessary. The work shows that spanking, not just more severe forms of abuse, results in higher likelihood of criminal behavior. But of course you will continue to ignore reality in favor of your selfish personal needs.

I still maintain that there is no substitute for experience and that on this issue that is extremely relevant which is probably why you try so hard to dismiss it, facts such as you mention are always open to suspicion.

Yes, I see you "maintaining" this, but you have yet to explain why your personal experience is more relevant than the work of thousands. I have asked this multiple times, now. No one has yet given an answer. It is obviously because you can't.

Why so much emphasis on facts,

Remember saying this?

The posts you reply to put me in mind of someone I knew who frequently said "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"

...in this day with the internet and google you can find facts to support any view. I recall it being said that the devil could quote the scriptures in his own support, so not much changes over the years!

Researchers can easily skew findings to suit their theory, just tailor the tests, groups or the questions you ask so that you avoid conflicting answers, publish it on the internet and whoopee, new facts. Political, religious and commercial groups are exceptionally good at this, which are you following?

I am well aware of what constitutes legitimate research. I have never and will never receive information from any source that has not followed rigorous research methods and submitted their work for peer review. That said, the knowledge we have about this issue is not from some dinky website I found one day. The work was started before even you were born and the results have been produced for literally decades. This is standard knowledge as far as the educated are concerned. It is not in question except by people like you. People who are unwilling to see reality because it conflicts with their petty feelings.

The problem is that people like yourself with some sort of axe to grind jump on these facts and stuff them down other peoples throats regardless of their validity other than "I saw it on the net/TV/Newspaper so it must be true."

This is nothing but an ad hominem. You have absolutely no idea what my knowledge base is, or where it comes from. I could be some teenage kid talking out his ass, or I could be a Ph.D. in Child Psychology or anywhere in between.

Your question in post #94 is about on a par with "have you stopped beating your wife?" and does not need an answer; and your implication that no answer is proof of guilt is yet another example of your naivety.

It does not need an answer? If spanking children harms them, do you want to know? Your answer is clearly, "no". You are thus guilty of willful ignorance. I hold up possible knowledge to you in an honest attempt to do my part in making this world a better place and you respond by covering your eyes with one hand and flipping me off with the other. You don't look to see whether it's true or not, you don't care whether it's true or not because you don't want it to be true. I find this to be cowardly. I don't see how it could be anything else.

From your avoidance of my question re your age etc I would infer that you have something to hide.

You are attempting to sway people by making it seem that our ages are more relevant than what's true. My lack of an answer is simply a dismissal of your desperate attempt at sophistry. This knowledge didn't come from me. This isn't my knowledge. It was reached by many people who have dedicated their lives to understanding it. Even if I had never existed, what I am saying would still be true, so clearly any personal facts about me are irrelevant. It has nothing to do with me. Nor does it have anything to do with you. It is sad that you are incapable of understanding that real knowledge does not reside in the beliefs of one ignorant man, or even one educated man, but in the combined understanding of those who have sought to find it.

By the way I still find your continued diatribe against all who disagree with you to be extremely obnoxious; you are behaving exactly like a spoilt child who is in dire need of some of the discipline we are discussing.

Diatribe? My opponents are free to post their(your) side, but if I do the same I have done something wrong? You are dishonest to the core.

[JLS]

I'll go ahead and say 'yes' to your question, JLS.

Thank you, rojo.

That's:

YES - 2

NO - 1

[Sylvie Pacey]

My, this argument is getting very heated. There are many different takes on this vexed question. Perhaps the poem I wrote about responsibility might add something to the debate and perhaps cool things down just a little.Sylvie

[marval]

Hi Sylvie

I agree with you this is getting heated, I like your poem, so very true. Maybe it is time to close this thread and move on.


Margaret

[JLS]

I like your poem, Sylvie. I agree with it. I have little doubt that the people disagreeing with me here have the same goal that I do -- to raise our children as best we can. To give them the best chance at a good, happy life and to do our part to make the next generation of the world a better one. That is why I post in this thread. But I see my opponents forgetting that, here. I see them choosing to ignore truths that could help us all achieve those goals. I offer them a new idea, one that many, many people know to be a better one and they reject it without the slightest consideration. They do not consider it and then reject it having come to understand it first, they deny it without looking.

[Contratrombone64]

JLS - do NOT assume that you how I'm thinking because you are VERY wrong.

[Dorsetmike]

They do not consider it and then reject it having come to understand it first, they deny it without looking.

Sounds like Pot and Kettle time

[Contratrombone64]

Dorsetmike - a little unkind really but spot on.

[JLS]

How is it spot on? Show me what you have presented here and that I have refused to look at. Quote what was posted and I will address it. I assure you, if I failed to respond to something, it was an oversight...

[JLS]

JLS - do NOT assume that you how I'm thinking because you are VERY wrong.

If you have educated yourself about this, then you are not the target of my accusations. Have you?

[methodistgirl]

Why can't you guys just keep it from getting so ugly. If you read the
first post you would see what my attentions were about. It was just
on the behavior of different children and how would you discipline them.
I wasn't talking about any child abuse or mistreating a child but to
make a child to be a better citizen as an adult. I know of some adults
who also act like their still at 2 years old and need to grow up.
There is a proverb that says if you raise a child and bring it up right
he or she will not depart from it. Let's shrink this monster of a thread
down to what it started out to be in the first place. Please?
judy tooley