Mega-Hyper-Ultra Organ...

[dll927]

In fact, sometimes I wonder when they become overkill. There are only so many formations pipes can take, so there has to be a lot of duplication in the various divisions. First Cong. now has surround sound, but how much can you put on at one time without needing ear plugs? And I would tend to agree that this 'contest" for the largest organ probably is overdone.

That church has something of a checkered history. When Dr. Fifield was pastor (32 years), it was known as a citadel of conservatism. But since his demise there has been a parade of senior pastors. And I see they now have another new one. They just went something like a couple of years without a permanent one. And 'permanent' doesn't seem to mean much around there any more. Maybe they are too fussy!! As for organists, after Lloyd Holzgraf retired, Fred Swann was there for 3-4 years (after the Crystal Cathedral), and they have been through two or three since then.

A perusal of a lot of Cavaille-Coll organs will show similar-named ranks in different divisions - and a lot of rather sparse pedal divisions. So it can leave the question of how much you can put into one building and still make sense.

[dll927]

One further note: I just recently became aware that, in some burg named Hurricane, West Virginia, there is a Methodist church with a SIX MANUAL mostly digital creation. You can see pictures of the console on a site r.a. colby. It gives Wanamaker a run for its money. Which raises the question, what physical proportions does one need to play (reach) such a contraption?

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha dll927,

If anything, Cavaille-Coll was mathematically precise in physically and acoustically *engineering* his organ oeuvre based on what kind of budget he was given. What may have looked sparse on paper stoplist in the pedal department, was enough to *carry* the manual divisions. Cavaille-Coll was also an artisan with enough integrity to give similar-named stops in the different divisions subtle voicing characteristics. C-C never jam-packed his oeuvre with tons of stops like we see in many American instruments. His oeuvre were very well-balanced creations.

In re to the 6-manual beast in Hurricane, WV - I have personally heard it live - in no way does it give the Wanamaker a run for the money. The Wanamaker is a triumph of organ building on a massive *Symphonic-Orchestral* scale that defies one's imagination. To stand on the main floor in the great space and listen to the billowing cascades of sound that pour down on one like the Niagara Falls just dazzles the mind.

In re to physical proportions of the Walker instrument in Hurricane, WV - an average sized human being can handle playing it. A long-time lady organist on the Wanamaker magic machine, was quite petite but was able to navigate with relative ease the huge console.

Cheerio,

CD

[dll927]

I really enjoy these back & forth messages.

Your points are very well taken. As for pedal divisions, the C-C organs had "tirasses" a.k.a. manual-to-pedal couplers that could filll in when needed. And of course, being mechanical, all the appropriate manual keys danced around, too.

It's really something of a shame that so many of his organs have been "modernized". True, nothing lasts forever, but the St. Sulpice one is now something over 140 years old, and I've seen enough tapes of Roth playing it to see that it still works quite decently - if one can get used to that type of organ. He's been doing it a while.

Something about that organ I find rather interesting: The first manual is called a "grand chorus" and is actually a part of the "Grand Orgue" division, but it also serves as a coupler manual for everything else. Roth seems to play on that manual most of the time, and all the other manuals are coupled to it when he wants to elevate the rafters a bit. If I were ever to find myself in Paris, you can bet that a visit to that church would be a top priority.

Regarding peoples' size, supposedly the organ at the "mother" Christian Science church in Boston is a four-manual because the lady who was organist at the time didn't think she could reach a fifth one. In this country, consoles are pretty much standardized, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Then there's the matter of music racks. Just bring binoculars. My glasses are trifocals, so I would probably need a separate pair to deal with a rack that high up.

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha dll927,

I enjoy sharing what little I know. C-C has figured very much into my understanding of instrument design and construction. The instruments of E.M. Skinner also have contributed as have the instruments of Johannes Klais, to my working knowledge. I must also mention Henry Willis and his triumphal oeuvre that resides in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral. The contemporary American builders I find very interesting are Schoenstein, Fisk, Lively-Fulcher, and Petty-Madden.

Cheerio,

CD

[acc]

In all fairness, it should be pointed that the pedal division in St-Sulpice is indeed too small (which motivated the addition of two pedal stops in 1934, as a “good bye gift” to Widor). But Cavaillé-Coll had no choice, because he had to cope with the space limitations provided by the existing case.

[dll927]

It has been said that Widor himself called the pedal division "inadequate", or however you say that in French.

You mention the Skinner organs. Much ink has been spilled over how "tastes" have changed in regard to stops and voicing. But Ernie seems to have known what he was doing. The original organ at L.A. First Congregational is a Skinner, although it has been consderably added to. One of the 32's on it is called a "Waldhorn".

The story behind "Erzahler" is that Skinner had a German worker in the factory. They came up with pipes with this sort-of new sound, and when they asked the German how it sounded, his reply was "Erzahler". I'm not sure anybody else knows what the word means.

Yes, I know "Erzahler" is supposed to have an umlaut (diaresis) over the "a", but my computer doesn't speak German except in the word processor, where you can add such things as umlauts, accent marks, etc., known collectively as diacritical marks.

Schoenstein did the one in the new LDS Conference Center, a.k.a. Hinckley's Palace, and also the one at First-Plymouth in Lincoln, NE. That one has quite a website describing the various organs the church has had.

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha acc,

Indeed! Thanx for sharing. I've always wondered if the addition of those two pedal stops were not really an answer to Widor having once *semi-publically* commiserated that he wished for some *extra material* in the pedal division, and word of that revelation reached the ears of *some* benevolently disposed people in the curia of St. Sulpice, and the rest is, well, history.

Cheerio,

CD

[acc]

OK, let's go for some small-talk: actually, legend has it that when Widor resigned from St-Sulpice, he told the curia how much he would have liked to pay for those two extra stops, as a gift to the parish at which he officiated for so long. The curia then allegedly “turned the tables on Widor” and decided to “offer” the stops to him.

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha acc,

Yes! 'Tis fascinating to surmise what the deal really was.

Cheerio,

CD

[dll927]

He resigned??? Retired??? He was about 26 when he started, and +63 years comes to right at 90.

Supposedly, the story is that several 'bigwigs' recommended him at that tender age, so he was hired, if that's the word, for a year. Hah!! Apparently after the year was up the organ was still sounding, so they left well enough alone. He must have outlasted several priests.

It's said that he thought too many other organists played the famous Toccata too fast. I wonder if he ever had the chance to play an electric-action instrument.

There is a guy at a small (Christian Science) college in the midwest, John Near, who has really delved into studying Widor's music, its various publications, and Widor's own changes that he made over time. As always, such an endeavor is likely to produce results, such as some "authentic" version, that will be as controversial as accurate.

[acc]

He resigned??? Retired??? He was about 26 when he started, and +63 years comes to right at 90.

You're right: “retired” is probably more appropriate.

Supposedly, the story is that several 'bigwigs' recommended him at that tender age, so he was hired, if that's the word, for a year. Hah!! Apparently after the year was up the organ was still sounding, so they left well enough alone. He must have outlasted several priests.

Indeed, the story of Widor's appointment, as told by himself in 1934 after his retirement, goes as follows: when Lefébure-Wély died in 1869, it was essentially Cavaillé-Coll who used his influence to secure the position at St-Sulpice for his young protégé Widor. This caused an upcry in some circles, complaining about such a young man being appointed to such a prestigious position (to which the great César Franck himself had applied). The clergy of St-Sulpice tried to be diplomatic and decided to appoint Widor on a temporary basis, for one year, starting in January 1870. But then, the Franco-Prussian war broke out, and people had other things on their minds then the status of Widor's appointment. In January 1871, when Widor paid a visit to the clergy to wish them a happy new year, they didn't mention the matter, so Widor thought it wise not to mention it either. And the old man to conclude that he had been on a temporary appointment for... 64 years!

It's said that he thought too many other organists played the famous Toccata too fast.

Actually, his views on speed actually changed over time: the 1887 edition is marked crotchet=118, but he reduced that to crotchet=100 in later editions.

But it is true that he often complained about it: “steam and electricty have changed the world, all goes faster today”. He also cited great musicians he knew in his youth, such as Liszt, who according to him did not play fast(!).

I wonder if he ever had the chance to play an electric-action instrument.

Most certainly yes: already in the 1890s, electrical actions were not unheard of in France (for example, the 1891 Merklin organ in Valenciennes still exists today, with its original electrical action). Moreover, Widor is on record stating that mechanical action with Barker levers remained the best action despite the developments allowed by electricity.

There is a guy at a small (Christian Science) college in the midwest, John Near, who has really delved into studying Widor's music, its various publications, and Widor's own changes that he made over time. As always, such an endeavor is likely to produce results, such as some "authentic" version, that will be as controversial as accurate.

Indeed: John Near has written a Ph.D. thesis on Widor in 1985, and he has subsequently published a new critical edition of all ten organ symphonies for A-R editions. I've used his edition to work on the Symphonie Romane, and highly recommend it!

[dll927]

That whole discussion of publishing problems and Widor's changes is interesting.

Composers' revisions of scores is hardly anything new. One would assume that the final version left by the composer would be the standard version used in performance.

But consider poor Anton Bruckner. Not only did he himself make revisons in several of his symphonies, especially early ones, but there were at least a couple of later guys who took it upon themselves to make revisions also. The result is that various recordings can have complete different movements, depending, they say, on the conductor. And Bruckner was a church organist, even though he seems to have left us little organ music to go by. No Franck or Widor.

Would it be safe to surmise that modern methods of writing and transcribing may make things more permanent for current-day composers?