• Welcome to the Pipe Organ Forum! This is a part of the open community Magle International Music Forums focused on pipe organs (also known as "church organs"), organists, organ music and related topics.

    This forum is intended to be a friendly place where technically advanced organists and beginners (or even non-organists) can feel comfortable having discussions and asking questions. We learn by reading and asking questions, and it is hoped that the beginners (or non-organists) will feel free to ask even the simplest questions, and that the more advanced organists will patiently answer these questions. On the other hand, we encourage complex, technical discussions of technique, music, organ-building, etc. The opinions and observations of a diverse group of people from around the world should prove to be interesting and stimulating to all of us.

    As pipe organ discussions can sometimes become lively, it should be pointed out that this is an open forum. Statements made here are the opinion of the poster, and not necessarily that of the forum itself, its administrator, or its moderators.

    In order to post a new topic - or reply to existing ones - you may join and become a member by clicking on Register New User. It's completely free and only requires a working email address (in order to confirm your registration - it will never be given away!). We strive to make this a friendly and informative forum for anyone interested in pipe organs and organ music.

    (Note: If you wish to link to and promote your own website please read this thread first.)

    Many kind regards
    smile.gif

    Frederik Magle
    Administrator

    Krummhorn
    Co-Administrator

Notre Dame church organ sound

pcnd5584

New member
Does there exist another church as ballyhooed as Notre Dame?

I ran across a tape that I burned to a CD of one of their organists (not sure which, there are about five) doing an improvisation that goes on for about ten minutes.

Of course, that organ is not the Cavaille-Coll that Vierne knew - and died at. The C-C was replaced with an electric action one back in the 1960's.

Following the death of Pierre Cochereau (5/03/84), four organists were appointed, as the result of a competition: Yves Devernay, Olivier Latry, Jean-Pierre Leguay and Philippe Léfébvre. Sadly, Yves Devernay himself died in 1990, so there remain three organists who play on rotation. (The Titulaire of the Orgue du Choeur *, Yves Castagnet also plays for Sunday masses once or twice a year (according to the last rota which I saw.)

As Corno Dolce has written, the Cavaillé-Coll instrument at Nôtre-Dame de Paris has been altered (not replaced) many times. In fact, in the most recent restoration, which took place between 1990-92, an attempt was made to recapture the essence of the sound of the previous instrument. How successful this was, one must judge for oneself. However, it cannot be denied that the organ in its present incarnation is an extremely versatile and capable instrument.

For the sake of accuracy, Vierne did collapse at the old console (whilst giving a recital for Les Amis de l'Orgue on 2/06/37) - but actually died shortly afterwards in the large antechamber halfway up the south tower. 1



* This is one of only two full-time organists' posts in Paris, the other being that of Organiste Titulaire, Nôtre-Dame d'Auteuil - which is currently held by Frédéric Blanc (formerly Organiste-assistant, at the Basilica of S. Sernin, Toulouse: http://blanc.organiste.free.fr/).


1 Cited by Jean Fellon (in whose arms Vierne died) p. 422 - 3, Louis Vierne: Organist of Nôtre-Dame Cathedral - Rollin Smith. Pendragon Press, 1999.
 
Last edited:

pcnd5584

New member
... Do you know some DVD recorded at Notre Dame, with this particular sound that I'm looking for? ...

There is one DVD here

Since it is primarily concerned with the life of Pierre Cochereau, there is not a lot of time given to him playing the Grand Organ at Nôtre-Dame. However, it is a fascinating testament to his life.

In addition, following the link back to the home page of the Solstice site, there are several other recordings on CD of the organ of Nôtre-Dame, all of good quality. Whilst many are of Cochereau improvising, there are also some of him playing repertoire - for example the Six Symphonies of Vierne.
 

Janne

New member
There is one DVD here

Since it is primarily concerned with the life of Pierre Cochereau, there is not a lot of time given to him playing the Grand Organ at Nôtre-Dame. However, it is a fascinating testament to his life.

In addition, following the link back to the home page of the Solstice site, there are several other recordings on CD of the organ of Nôtre-Dame, all of good quality. Whilst many are of Cochereau improvising, there are also some of him playing repertoire - for example the Six Symphonies of Vierne.

Hmmm, problem ¿
I counted to three identical post :)
 

greatcyber

New member
Thanks a lot for your reply, full of history and new recomendations.

That's just what I want, recomendations for my ears.

Do you know some DVD recorded at Notre Dame, with this particular sound that I'm looking for?
Yes I know there is a lot of different sound, and Yes, you can give me more links, or recomendations, because I will hear all of them, no doubt about that.

I think a DVD, with the great dinamic range, the low and high layers will sound like a cathedral in my home... well I know, I think the same, nothing could be compared with a church or cathedral... but, something quite similar.

I remember, when I was in Paris. We went to a little cherch in the street Rue Des Pretres Saint-Severin... and surprisingly the tune played at the organ, sounds equal to the played at NotreDame. For me this kind of tunes is new, here in Spain, I heard for tipical tune for the mass... really it sounds different.

Well I'm yours... continue to introduce me in the world of Pipe sound, and thanks again for your time and knowledge.

I found at least one DVD for NDP organ listed here: http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/Jean-Pierre-LEGUAY,402

At least it's a start in the right direction. As for further examples or grand organs, I certainly defer to Corno Dolce as he is a wealth of knowledge in this area. I believe we share that "passion" for the magnificent sound of a huge instrument that touches your very soul.
 

pcnd5584

New member
I found at least one DVD for NDP organ listed here: http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/Jean-Pierre-LEGUAY,402

At least it's a start in the right direction. As for further examples or grand organs, I certainly defer to Corno Dolce as he is a wealth of knowledge in this area. I believe we share that "passion" for the magnificent sound of a huge instrument that touches your very soul.

I am not sure that I would risk purchasing this DVD if Leguay is improvising. As an interpreter he is good - but as an improviser, you may be disappointed. His style is rather different to Cochereau, Grünenwald, Latry, Léfèbvre, Pincemaille or Roth, for example.
 

acc

Member
Indeed, Leguay's improvisational style is, shall we say, extremely personal. He also tends to have very different styles for liturgical impros and for concert impros (different to an extent I haven't seen since Dupré), with the “concert style” somewhat more akin to my personal taste.

Maybe the most interesting of Leguay's activities is that of writing music. For some time now, I have come to think of the three ND organists as “the performer” (Latry), “the improviser” (Lefèbvre), and “the composer” (Leguay).
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha GC,

God Bless you dear sir - you humble me and honor me too greatly by your kind words - Alas, when it comes to knowlege about CC organs I must dutifully defer to acc - He has the *skinny* on CC organs that I wish I had - He is light-years ahead of me.

Humbly,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

acc

Member
God Bless you dear sir - you humble me and honor me too greatly by your kind words - Alas, when it comes to knowlege about CC organs I must dutifully defer to acc - He has the *skinny* on CC organs that I wish I had - He is light-years ahead of me.

God bless you as well dear Sir — may I in turn state that you, too, humble me and honour me far too greatly by your kind words. :tiphat:
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha acc,

Thank you for being such a *Mensch* - A rare breed these days for sure. Thank you for posting that latest vid with PC doing what he does best - I have it now bookmarked. WOW! Had it not been for the info tools we have today, so much would never have been experienced - And I'm not talking about so much trash that one also finds on YouTube.

Humbly,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

acc

Member
And I'm not talking about so much trash that one also finds on YouTube.

Well, I guess Youtube is just a cross-section of our society. Any community of several millions of people (or more) is bound to have its less engaging neighbourhoods; Youtube, alas, is no exception.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha acc,

You're darn tootin' - YouTube is a virtual global community.

Humbly,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

Soubasse

New member
acc said:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Those definitely fall into the category of "who-am-I-kidding-saying-I-can-play-the-organ-when-he-goes-and-makes-up-something-like-that" improvisations

EDIT: I don't mind being shamed for having taken this long to finally read the full specs of the Notre-Dame organ, but I don't think I've ever seen an instrument with quite so many mutations on the pedals - more :eek:
 
Last edited:

acc

Member
I don't think I've ever seen an instrument with quite so many mutations on the pedals

Believe it or not, but these mutations are not additions from the 1960s, but were put in there by... Cavaillé-Coll himself, in 1867! Actually, he has included three full mutation series:

  • 32' – 16' – 10'2/3 – 8' – 6'2/5 – 5'1/3 – 4'4/7 – 4' in the Pedal
  • 16' – 8' – 5'1/3 – 4' – 3'1/5 – 2'2/7 – 2' in Bombarde (now the 4th manual, called Solo)
  • 8' – 4' – 2'2/3 – 2' – 1'3/5 – 1'1/3 – 1'1/7 – 1' in Grand-Chœur (now the 5th manual)
Although he never actually built anything similar elsewhere, he must have been pleased with the result at Notre-Dame, since he included an identical array of mixtures into his 1875 mammoth proposal for St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.
 

pcnd5584

New member
Believe it or not, but these mutations are not additions from the 1960s, but were put in there by... Cavaillé-Coll himself, in 1867! Actually, he has included three full mutation series:

  • 32' – 16' – 10'2/3 – 8' – 6'2/5 – 5'1/3 – 4'4/7 – 4' in the Pedal
  • 16' – 8' – 5'1/3 – 4' – 3'1/5 – 2'2/7 – 2' in Bombarde (now the 4th manual, called Solo)
  • 8' – 4' – 2'2/3 – 2' – 1'3/5 – 1'1/3 – 1'1/7 – 1' in Grand-Chœur (now the 5th manual)
Although he never actually built anything similar elsewhere, he must have been pleased with the result at Notre-Dame, since he included an identical array of mixtures into his 1875 mammoth proposal for St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.

However Soubasse did state specifically that there were a large number of mutations on the Pédale Orgue. Those on the Petit Pédale were, of course, not installed by Cavaillé-Coll, but added after 1963. These include: Tierce 3 1/5*, Quinte 2 2/3, Tierce 1 3/5 and Larigot 1 1/3.



* This rank may have been added between 1959 and 1964 (when Jean Hermann died).
 

acc

Member
Those on the Petit Pédale were, of course, not installed by Cavaillé-Coll, but added after 1963. These include: Tierce 3 1/5*, Quinte 2 2/3, Tierce 1 3/5 and Larigot 1 1/3.

You're absolutely right; I forgot about the Petite Pédale (although I'd say that the Grande Pédale on its own already has an unusually high proportion of mutations).
 

pcnd5584

New member
You're absolutely right; I forgot about the Petite Pédale (although I'd say that the Grande Pédale on its own already has an unusually high proportion of mutations).

I would agree with this.

Incidentally, you were correct regarding S. Suplice - I had forgotten about the removal of the free reeds - and I was unaware of the addition of the other mutation.

I had heard about the recent (possible) revoicing from another forum - where it was also regarded as unsubstantiated. Personally, I hope that the claim was incorrect; I rather like the sound of the S. Sulpice instrument the way is is - or at least, the way I think it is....
 

Soubasse

New member
S. Sulpice was, when I heard it (to put not too fine a point on it and to use a certain vernacular), an eargasm!
 
Top