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Thread: Cochereau Improvisation...

  1. #1
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Cochereau Improvisation...

    Dear MIMF OrganPhreaks,

    Here's an improvised organ symphony(in three parts) on the Gregorian melody *Placare Christe Servulis*:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qo-O...related&fmt=18

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDC2W...related&fmt=18

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZgIN...related&fmt=18

    Enjoy!

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  2. #2
    Lieutenant, Associate Concertmaster Janne's Avatar
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    This is seven trips worse than Reubke, what is good in this?

    A musical meltdown, perhaps a technical orgy but totaly meaningless music.

    But it's my opinion of course
    _______
    //Janne

  3. #3
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Hi Janne,

    True, its not for everybody - did you listen to the second clip? It's quite soft...

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  4. #4
    Lieutenant, Associate Concertmaster Janne's Avatar
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    Well, sometimes it is exciting to me, but I have problem with French improvisation art.

    Latry plays in the same way as well.

    But do not misunderstand me, it is incredible musicians, both of them.

    _______
    //Janne

  5. #5
    Lieutenant, Associate Concertmaster Janne's Avatar
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    If we are honest, it's only other musicians who "understand" certain things that are played.

    It's sad that it has become so.

    This is the reasons why people not want to come and hear the "organ theology" today.
    _______
    //Janne

  6. #6
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Aloha Janne,

    Well, the organ seems to have an indefatigable champion in the person of Cameron Carpenter who seems to be *wowing* grade-schoolers and adults everywhere he goes.

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  7. #7
    Commodore con Forza
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    Hi Janne,

    Although I personally love Cochereau's improvisations (and the Reubke sonata, too), I can very well understand how you feel about them.

    Maybe I can try to reconcile you with French improvisers by suggesting to listen to Michel Chapuis: he is no less of a genious than Cochereau, but his style is very different. Just type "michel chapuis" into Youtube's search field and you'll find quite a few.

  8. #8
    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    . . . Well, the organ seems to have an indefatigable champion in the person of Cameron Carpenter who seems to be *wowing* grade-schoolers and adults everywhere he goes , , ,
    As does Felix Hell, too. Although rather conservative in style as compared to Cameron, Felix does show off his skills as a young organists quite amply.

    Back to topic: I love these improvisations ... the lush and rich tones - and of course Cochereau is a masterful player. In my younger years I had the wonderful opportunity to hear him in recital here in the US (Los Angeles AGO event).
    Last edited by Krummhorn; Nov-07-2008 at 14:55.
    Kh ~~.
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  9. #9
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Aloha GrandMaster Krummhorn,

    Did you know that Maitre Cochereau smoked ciggs like there was no tomorrow? He would always be seen with a cigg in his mouth. When he visited Honolulu in 1980, the organist/choirmaster of the local Anglican cathedral provided living quarters for the Maitre for one week. The organist/choirmaster and his wife mentioned to me that the Maitre practically smoked them out of their own house. Such incessant smoking most probably shortened his life.

    Cheerio,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  10. #10
    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Greetings CD ...

    No, I did not know that ... 60 years is way too young to fall of the organ bench permanently. Glad I quit that filthy habit 4 years ago.
    Kh ~~.
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    Amateur musicians practice until they get it right ...
    Pro
    fessional musicians practice until they can't get it wrong ...


  11. #11
    Commodore con Forza
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    I've read more than once that "improvisation" seems to be part and parcel of French organ training. Yet, when I watch "You-tubes" of these guys (Latry, Roth, etc.), it seems to consist mostly of pullng all the stops and couplers and romping around in what often comes across as not all that musical. Do they know that organs also have soft stops??

    Than there's the one about some organist asking the audience to name four or so notes, then proceeding to play something with them.

    I guess what I'm' really saying is, does such activity outshine sitting down and really composing a work? It figures that musical works probably float around in the composers' minds before they commit them to paper, but is that the same as pretending to sit there and make something up?

  12. #12
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    aloha dll927,

    I'll try to help - hopefully acc will also chime in if I'm mistaken: Improvisation at the console is very much a part of the organist's education at the conservatoires. If you have looked at the many different youtube vids where they improvise, you'll find them also using *soft stops*. Improvisation on a theme is an art form.

    The artisan/organist will then apply his/her formal education in, among other things, theory, harmony, counterpoint, fugue and other sub-disciplines to craft the musical message. The Gregorian melody for the given Sunday and the section of the Mass plus the organist's skill, artistic, and personality are some factors that go into the improvisation.

    If its the *sortie* = exit, then the organist might call on all the resources. They can begin PPP, progress to FFF, and then back to PPP or whatever their musical muse/mind leads them. Some organists will commit their improvisation to music, some don't. A very famous organist and composer was Charles Tournemire. A magnificent opus he composed is *L'Orgue Mystique* which assigned a suite(51 in all) for every Sunday in the Church year. Each suite is made up of improvisations on the Gregorian melodies for that Sunday. The GrandMaster JSBach improvised on old and new tunes, both sacred and secular, in his day, harmonised them, they got printed and they were performed by him and organists ever since.

    So you see, much goes into improvisation but the dynamics will vary, depending on the organist and the situation. No two organists are alike and thankfully so. Each has his/her own artistic predilections/proclivities/skill/sensitivity and their own faith system and how it informs them and their output as a composer and a performer.

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  13. #13
    Commodore con Forza
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    Which leads me to something I have always believed -- artistic ability, whether musical, painting, writing, or whatever, can be taught only up to a point. The rest is what we euphemistically call talent, and if that's not there, training can go only so far.

    In another thread, I mentioned that it wasn't until around the middle of the 19th century that so-called "conservatories" came into existence. Prior to that, musical training was largely, in effect, an apprentice system. And most of the "classical" period composers were pretty much indentured servants to wealthy families - look at Haydn and the Esterhazy family. It might be interesting to wonder just how much those guys thought about writing music that would last for the ages. They were employed, whether by families, cities, or churches, to write music for current needs.

    Then there's the whole realm of history and criticism. "Art history" seems to be largely a matter of learning to write in flowery language that nobody else can understand. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a photography hobbyist too, and when I read "Aperture" magazine's critiques of photo exhibitions, I sometimes feel the writers pieced together their writings off the cutting-room floor. Which brings up another of my beliefs - no "critic" is anything more than personal opinion. Professors largely regurgitate what they were taught when they were slaving for their Ph.D's.

    I may sound somewhat cynical, but I'm still convinced that you can be "taught" only so far. The rest is research (which leads to more discoveries), work, and, to paraphrase Churchill, "blood, sweat and tears."
    Last edited by dll927; Nov-07-2008 at 18:58.

  14. #14
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Aloha dll927,

    you make me laugh - Yes, the Ph.D's regurgitate what they were taught and what were the findings of their research - Yes, some writers piece together the droppings on the cutting-room floor and some composers have grafted a *modified* page from another composers work and called it their own creation - Aaaaccchhh!!! Such charlatans and scallywags

    Truly and verily so - you can only be *taught so far*.

    Cheers,

    CD

    ps: PHD = Permanent Head Damage, Post Hole Digger, Piled High and Deep. My late father who had a Ph.D from Yale and was a University professor said that one shall never employ a Ph.D to teach Elementary or High School students - the Ph.D's will only muck-up the thinking in the formative mind of a child.
    Last edited by Corno Dolce; Nov-07-2008 at 19:03. Reason: Addition
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  15. #15
    Commodore con Forza
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    I applaud your father, although there actually are such things as Ph.D's teaching in high schools. Maybe a bit out of place, but it sure beats the socks off of "education professors" who muck up the entire educational system with their latest whims. I'm a retired teacher who has never had much regard for "educationism". Classic case of those who can't teach teaching others "HOW" to teach.

    I might add that my sister has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology - another questionable enterprise!!

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