A War Of All Against All...

[sunwaiter]

i don't see who are the"church-haters", the "persecutors" mister Chaplin talks about. well, ok, there are conflicts, and people have always fought each other to determine which civilization, which belief, etc was the strongest. until today religion has provided us too many reasons to break the sacred "don't kill no one" law. what about the "non-believers"? i hope there is no confusion. to be honest i find this article quite creepy. i assume that there is a christian heritage in europe and beyond, but human values don't necessarily need it. i don't reject church or christian values, i just don't need it. things that start end too. we evolve, and it's true that i hope we will get along in peace one day, without any particular doctrine. i'm always trying to listen to people around me as best as i can.

the economic blocks are real, the power of money is real, and i agree that the great difficulty is to fight against isolation, at all scales. but there is more than christianity, islam or whatever you may prefer. there is US! i do BELIEVE in man's intelligence and in peace, no matter how hardcore, violent, unfair, revulsing, desparate the world seems to be today.

[Andrew Roussak]

i don't see who are the"church-haters", the "persecutors" mister Chaplin talks about. well, ok, there are conflicts, and people have always fought each other to determine which civilization, which belief, etc was the strongest. until today religion has provided us too many reasons to break the sacred "don't kill no one" law. what about the "non-believers"? i hope there is no confusion. to be honest i find this article quite creepy. i assume that there is a christian heritage in europe and beyond, but human values don't necessarily need it. i don't reject church or christian values, i just don't need it. things that start end too. we evolve, and it's true that i hope we will get along in peace one day, without any particular doctrine. i'm always trying to listen to people around me as best as i can.

the economic blocks are real, the power of money is real, and i agree that the great difficulty is to fight against isolation, at all scales. but there is more than christianity, islam or whatever you may prefer. there is US! i do BELIEVE in man's intelligence and in peace, no matter how hardcore, violent, unfair, revulsing, desparate the world seems to be today.

But, Sunwaiter, the correspondence between the atheistical regimes and mass murders like holocaust and GULAG is nevertheless clearly seen . The all-known examples, where atheism was a state ideology , are known to be USSR, maoist China, the 3rd Reich of Hitler ( well, the latter one was racistic to it ). I mean I have read it somewhere, and I can even look for a link to that website - but it has been even calculated, that the correspondence between the atheism as a state ideology and the brutality of this state system is more than 80 % - this is stronger than the correspondence between smoking and getting cancer.

Of course you personally can be an atheist and a good and honest person, as well as you can be a smoker and don't have cancer. Don't forget you were born in a society which still have Christian traditions. The problem begins when atheism becomes a mass ideology and "love your nearest" will be replaced by the "fittiest will survive". For what it's worth - I was born in the Soviet Union and basing on an example of my own family know how did it practically work in Stalin's times.

[sunwaiter]

saddam hussein believed in god but led a laicist regime. he murdered masses of people.

to me the theory you mentioned doesn't work, though it's clear that the clash between religions and totalitarisms don't help...... the one who don't believe is not necessarily a church-hater or something approaching this, as you also rightfully remarked.

making atheism an ideology is pure non sense to me. but i know some people are able to do such a thing (like adolf, tse-tung, etc)

this problem can be compared with the "democracy" classic problem: for example, in my country, every political party is supposed to have the right to be represented, and to make its promotion. we all have an extreme-right-wing party with very scary motivations and worshipers. for example, people who would vote for death penalty, racial distinction (segregation), abortion prohibition, etc. a person who has just a bit of humanity is always scared by a possible success of such a party (well, i am), but the fact is that they have the right to express themselves and to exist, because we don't live under a pure totalitarist regime. so there is a risk, but it must be taken.

to be honest i don't see why i should give so much importance to the christian traditions? i don't celebrate christmas, easter or anything. i'm happy to live in my country because it's much better than so many others, and most of all, i do not feel any need to keep christian traditions alive. i respect my patrimony, but that's all.

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha sunwaiter,

You have been mentioning *Humanity* on another thread and that you don't need religion and dogmas. I suppose you are cognizant of what happened in France during Napoleon's rule - many Churches were turned into *Temples of Reason*. The Church called *La Madeleine* at the end of rue Royale in Paris was originally built to be a *Temple of Reason* but then with the fall of Napoleon the building was to become a railway station - In 1842 it was finally consecrated as a Church.

Best regards,

CD

[sunwaiter]

i am not Napoleon. if catholic or any other kind of believer wants to jubilate because things got back to "normal" , what does it have to do with me?

[sunwaiter]

it doesn't have to be an only two-sided thing.

[sunwaiter]

i'm sorry, gotta eat, and get back home. thank you for your efforts. have a beautiful week-end!

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha sunwaiter,

I didn't say you were Napoleon - Napoleon wanted to control the Church in France since he had no personal use for religion or dogma. With his team of philosophers, scientists, and political operatives they saw the Church just as a *Temple of Reason*.

Best regards,

CD

[Corno Dolce]

You're welcome sunwaiter...have yourself a glorious one together with your ladyfriend