• Welcome to the Pipe Organ Forum! This is a part of the open community Magle International Music Forums focused on pipe organs (also known as "church organs"), organists, organ music and related topics.

    This forum is intended to be a friendly place where technically advanced organists and beginners (or even non-organists) can feel comfortable having discussions and asking questions. We learn by reading and asking questions, and it is hoped that the beginners (or non-organists) will feel free to ask even the simplest questions, and that the more advanced organists will patiently answer these questions. On the other hand, we encourage complex, technical discussions of technique, music, organ-building, etc. The opinions and observations of a diverse group of people from around the world should prove to be interesting and stimulating to all of us.

    As pipe organ discussions can sometimes become lively, it should be pointed out that this is an open forum. Statements made here are the opinion of the poster, and not necessarily that of the forum itself, its administrator, or its moderators.

    In order to post a new topic - or reply to existing ones - you may join and become a member by clicking on Register New User. It's completely free and only requires a working email address (in order to confirm your registration - it will never be given away!). We strive to make this a friendly and informative forum for anyone interested in pipe organs and organ music.

    (Note: If you wish to link to and promote your own website please read this thread first.)

    Many kind regards
    smile.gif

    Frederik Magle
    Administrator

    Krummhorn
    Co-Administrator

1878 recording of Franck's Prière — possibly played by Franck himself !?!

acc

Member
There is talk here and here about a (then) revolutionary recording device that was presented at the 1878 World Fair in Paris. (Both links are in Dutch; I haven't found anything in English about this — sorry!)

In particular, it would seem that one recording carries the first section of César Franck's Prière played at the (then brand new) Cavaillé-Coll organ of the Trocadero palace — possibly played by the composer himself.

Assuming it's not an advance April Fools' prank, this would be a pretty amazing discovery!
 

jhnbrbr

New member
That would be amazing if it was true. I've always thought it a shame that Franck (for whom I have the deepest affection and admiration ) lived just too soon to be recorded, unlike Elgar, who embraced the "new technology" of his day with great enthusiasm, allowing us to hear him conducting, improvising at the piano and speaking.
 

acc

Member
The people at Orgelnieuws now have uploaded a (the?) fragment here. (Second exposition of the theme, bars 17-24; ca. 18 seconds.)

Interestingly, the tempo is about crotchet=72, i.e. somewhat slower than Franck's tempo indications that Jöel-Marie Fauquet has rediscovered for the Six Pièces (in which the Prière clocks at crotchet=92). Of course, one still needs to clarify whether (a) it is indeed Franck playing in this recording, and (b) how faithfully the original tempo has been replicated in this mp3-file.
 

jhnbrbr

New member
I just checked Wikipedia for the phonograph - and it was invented in 1877 and patented in 1878, so the timing is spot-on, and I believe the Trocadero inauguration was part of a wider international exhibition - just the sort of place you would go to show off a new invention.
 

acc

Member
Indeed, that's exactly what those World Fairs were about. Paris had five during the 19th century, in 1855, 1867, 1878, 1889, and 1900. Needless to say, the Cavaillé-Coll firm participated in all five (the last one under Mutin, after Aristide's death in 1899), and Edison in the last three.
 

rovikered

New member
The people at Orgelnieuws now have uploaded a (the?) fragment here. (Second exposition of the theme, bars 17-24; ca. 18 seconds.)

Interestingly, the tempo is about crotchet=72, i.e. somewhat slower than Franck's tempo indications that Jöel-Marie Fauquet has rediscovered for the Six Pièces (in which the Prière clocks at crotchet=92). Of course, one still needs to clarify whether (a) it is indeed Franck playing in this recording, and (b) how faithfully the original tempo has been replicated in this mp3-file.

Have just listened to this fragment. At the time the recording was made it must have been an amazing achievement, but the sound (as it comes over now) is grotesque and scarcely recognisable as music at all ! How can it be identified as an extract of Franck's 'Priere' ? It seems to me only of historical interest mechanically and scientifically and not musically at all.
The extant recording of Brahms playing the piano is also not pleasant to hear and only of historical interest, but at least it IS recognisable !
 

mathetes1963

New member
Amazing if true, especially if the composer is indeed playing his own work. I'd like to hear more of this -assuming more exists- and have it's authenticity verified.
 

acc

Member
Have just listened to this fragment. At the time the recording was made it must have been an amazing achievement, but the sound (as it comes over now) is grotesque and scarcely recognisable as music at all ! How can it be identified as an extract of Franck's 'Priere' ? It seems to me only of historical interest mechanically and scientifically and not musically at all.
The extant recording of Brahms playing the piano is also not pleasant to hear and only of historical interest, but at least it IS recognisable !

There is a "parasite" medium-to-high-pitched sound lasting for about five seconds, but I do find the rest of the fragment quite recognizable (no less so than the Hungarian Dance fragment by Brahms, in my view).

And I think it does give interesting information from a musical point of view. On one hand, there is the tempo, as I said before. On the other hand, I also note a certain absence of rubato (especially noticeable in the two quavers in bar 21).
 

Soubasse

New member
Based on my limited experience of hearing recordings of composers performing their own works, there does appear (curiously) to be a general tendency amongst some of them, to take their pieces at a slower rate than their own manuscripts would indicate. I have a recording of Messiaen playing La Nativite and was (still am) quite surprised at how notably slower most of the cycle was in comparison to most other performances (including those personally endorsed by Messiaen such as Gillian Wier or Almut Rossler). Not quite sure what it means though - you don't think they were nervous do you??!
 

acc

Member
As far as I am aware, Messiaen never gave metronome markings, so it's hard to say whether it's Messiaen who plays "too slow" or other performers who play "too fast" (besides, there are other performers who do play as slowly as he does). My personal feeling is that when Messiaen says something like "extrêmement lent", it ought to be "as slow as possible without disrupting the musical discourse". Messiaen himself does that superbly, in my opinion. Note also his revised edition of Le Banquet Céleste, where he doubled all note lengths; I strongly suspect that this was in reaction to performers playing it too fast.

I don't know what to think of Messiaen's endorsement of performers — he has given so many of them that there is some sense of inflation (in the monetary sense) about them...

As for Franck, we do have metronome markings for the Six Pièces (not on the score's manuscript itself, but still on a document in Franck's handwriting). Of course, there may be many explanations for the present performance to be slower than these markings:

  • it may not be Franck at all who's playing,
  • metronome markings are only an general indication, to be adapted to every venue (although the Trocadéro would have a less generous acoustics than any church Franck could have played/heard his organ works until that point),
  • the recording could have been an impromptu request by Edison, and Franck, not specifically prepared for this performance, could have preferred to play slower than usual to avoid wrong notes,
  • etc.
Another point I note is about articulation: there is a clear break before the third beat in bar 22 (between D# and B), but otherwise the playing is as legato as one would expect from the "Lemmens school". This is interesting, since Franck's kinness to that performance school has not been as clear as, say, Widor's.
 

pcnd5584

New member
Have just listened to this fragment. At the time the recording was made it must have been an amazing achievement, but the sound (as it comes over now) is grotesque and scarcely recognisable as music at all ! How can it be identified as an extract of Franck's 'Priere' ? It seems to me only of historical interest mechanically and scientifically and not musically at all.
The extant recording of Brahms playing the piano is also not pleasant to hear and only of historical interest, but at least it IS recognisable !

I wonder why anyone bothered to do this. Arguably, there is no such thing as an 'early' All Fools' Day joke.
 

jhnbrbr

New member
Let's put this sorry business behind us

To salvage something from the collective humiliation :eek::eek::eek: of this thread, how do you all rate the "Priere" amongst Franck's organ works? I now see it as one of the greatest, but I remember there was a time when I really struggled with it. I imagine the opening will sound quite off-putting to anyone with mainstream classical music tastes who doesn't "get" Franck, but once one is tuned to the correct wavelength, it is an absolute masterpiece.
 

acc

Member
To salvage something from the collective humiliation :eek::eek::eek: of this thread, how do you all rate the "Priere" amongst Franck's organ works? I now see it as one of the greatest, but I remember there was a time when I really struggled with it. I imagine the opening will sound quite off-putting to anyone with mainstream classical music tastes who doesn't "get" Franck, but once one is tuned to the correct wavelength, it is an absolute masterpiece.

Oh, but I don't feel humiliated at all. Let's be fair play here: it was a good hoax, with the right number of believable elements, e.g. Edison did indeed invent the tin foil phonograph in 1877 (you know, "Mary had a little lamb"), and he did present it at the Paris World Fair in 1878.

As for Franck's Prière, I wholeheartedly agree: it is a masterpiece. Certainly the deepest among the Six Pièces, and in my personal opinion of all twelve, together with the 2nd Choral.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha acc,

That was a real ruse with the Franck *Priere* :lol::lol::lol:

Cheers,

CD :D:D:D
 
Top