» Digital Organ Choice

[FelixLowe]

Hear this version of All Things Bright and Beautiful with Royal Oak. I guess it is an Anglo-American organ again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXVURJ1lQ3Y.

The only criticism of the playing is that the organist leaves no breathing rest between the refrain and the verses. At least he should be "hands off" the manual during those little breaks, while keeping the pedal notes sustained if he wishes to produce a sense of continuity. But now everything in Royal Oak clumps together like a mess.

Perhaps, he tried to do this, thinking that since he was not actually supporting a congregation singing, but merely giving a demo, so he thus became a bit slack in maintaining proper diction.

[FelixLowe]

Hear this version of As the Deer Panteth for the Water on the same Conacher organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhVfs...eature=related. The song is based on a small article of Psalm 23. Personally I feel these Anglo-American ones mostly excel in giving Celeste effects.

Before the renovation of the Causeway Bay church where the Kleuker was, we never heard anything like that, or the Gamba. The congregation only made do with 15 stops, the principals, flutes, the mixtures (I suspect they had a Mixture and a Cymbel), the mutations, the oboe and the trumpet. And musically, they managed it quite well, with musicians there in earnest to show off their flair -- reharmonisation, preludes, interludes, transposition, postludes, Jazz style accompaniment, etc. And it seems that a habit was fostered that Celeste is not a must in organ playing. Plus, I guess the Kleuker may have in fact had a Tremulant, as the other one at the CUHK has it. I honestly feel that a Tremulant can be called for if no Vox Celeste is available. But I have never heard the organists make use of the Tremulant ever. But I really think it had one on it.

But what I feel to be different is the Kleuker at the Kowloon Methodist Church because once I heard Ms Wong play one of Charles Wesley's preludes with some string tone. I guess that 14-stop instrument may be slightly different. I have not yet walked near the organ to see what's on it. It could either have a Gamba, Salicional or Dulciana on it.

All three were built in the same period of of the late 1970s. So I guess they may be very similar, except that the one at Kowloon Methodist had a slightly different disposition.

[FelixLowe]

But I do admit that sometimes, when playing certain 20th century Romantic hymns, such as this one: Be Still for the Presence of the Lord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqIfG...eature=related, a Gamba or Dulciana can conjure up images of the Space and Galaxy; they belong to a class of ethereal voices of the space and high-tech age, basically. It's a late rhetorical tonal device to the organ, that aids in invoking the kind of imagery that these hymns heavily rely upon to convey -- smallness of humans and the immensity of creation. And from there, you can link the creation to the creator, and meditate on Him. Mostly these devices, including the Vox Celeste, are mostly used for this end.

To be honest, this Vox Celeste and the related Dulciana and Salicional, the summing up of their tonal quality, have to do with the Short-wave Radio. Sometimes, when you tune to certain channels, where they are not occupied by a broadcast channel, you can hear vagrancies produced by the celestial bodies. I believe these stops try to imitate some of the stars' emission of signals over the Space.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Originally Posted by Clarion

No . . . it has a very definite attack; particularly most noticeable on the full fonds/mixture intro to How Brightly Shines . . .
Good stuff for a church organ basically, for hauling the congregation up to speed. It just seemed a little prominent to my ears, and I was just wondering if they had cranked up the attack a bit.

To the best of my knowledge, no.

The distressing aspect of all of this is that she thinks your reed chorus is absolutely wonderful; and mine stinks!

I think the reeds are really what sets the Walker samples apart, and the main reason why I have troubles with so many other digital organs. Every manufacturer out there has great celestes or flutes, and even some wonderful principals, but reeds are often a letdown. In 'Once in...' I actually started with just the 16' great reed, added the Cornopean, opened the swell box, then finally added the Great and Swell 4' Clarions. If you listen again, you'll definitely hear where that swell box opens on the first of the c major chords, about two thirds of the way through.

At least that aspect of voicing can be tweaked with little effort; or alternately, did your organ not come with a whole bunch of "hidden" optional/substitutional voices that could be invoked??

Classic doesn't do this that I know of, at least, not on custom organs such as this one. It's Walker samples too, so there may have been a cost per stop royalty or something. I put on the Cornopean to balance the 16 and 32 bombardes. I does do that nicely, but a large Trumpet would have done slightly better.

Since it's been few decades since I have dealt with Classic Organ; I am wondering if Classic, at the outset, provided you with not only the essential Voicing software, but Configuration software that provides you with the option of virtually remapping the function of each and every tab on the the entire organ!?? ??

You definitely don't get this with a custom organ. It's Bob Walker's program, and when the organ was built, they had to find a laptop that ran on Win95. I don't know if that's been rectified yet. Apparently there were bugs in the program that only Bob knew about, so if you did the wrong thing, you could actually crash the whole organ. Certainly no config software either. James Chubb (no longer with them) wrote the software specifically for this organ. I can't comment on the Ahlborns they sell. I think that stuff is fully customizable, and even comes with a remote, so you can do voicing from different points in a room.


Part of the magic of that organ was being able to hide full swell behind the great principal chorus, then open up the box. It was wonderful. I hope you can try to get to play that instrument sometime. Every rank is divided over four speakers. Sometimes you hear pinging as the organist, because you're so close to the speakers. Back in the building, however, it makes the organ sound like the pipes are spread across the entire width of the church.

Got to go. Baby just woke up.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

That translates to $HK160,000, which is not a small figure. After all, how many stops can one get for a Phoenix that costs $20,000(US?)? But to be honest, some cathedrals here in the past paid about four times that amount for their Allen organs, quite sizeable ones, though.

I asked Don about standard console models when I was asking about a HW style setup. He said they had just put in a two manual, 37 stop organ in Alberta for around $20,000 Canadian. It may have been a bit more, he wasn't sure, but certainly around that dollar figure.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

The only criticism of the playing is that the organist leaves no breathing rest between the refrain and the verses.

That is your only criticism of his playing? True, he's not a professional organist, but there are a few other things wrong. Tempo, for me, is actually a bit slow. Registration is too heavy for this hymn. It needs to be light and playful. He needs to work on the legato, especially in the pedal, but manuals as well, so the articulation works. It was hard for me to listen too.

In all honesty, I play without real breaks. Just very short 'take-a-breather' breaks and on with the show.

I love the version. Much better than what's in my hymn book.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

a Gamba or Dulciana can conjure up images of the Space and Galaxy; they belong to a class of ethereal voices of the space and high-tech age.

Funny you should mention this. When I was the organ scholar at St. Mary Magdalene's in Toronto, I used the Great Gamba almost exclusively for, of all things, accompanying Gregorian Chant, way at the other end of the time line. Very clean, very clear, and very simple. It was the perfect stop.

SMM has two choirs - a gallery choir that sings all a capella from Byrd to modern age, and a ritual choir that sings all Gregorian chant. It's quite unique compared to any other church I've been to.

[FelixLowe]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

Detlef Kleuker of Brackwede/Westfalia, near Bielefeld, in the then West Germany was behind many Kleuker instruments around the world. It built many intruments from the 1960s through to the late 1970s.

After reviewing a few sound clips, I was wondering if Kleuker is truly of South German Baroque school. Yet, I don't think it is entirely so. Neither was it entirely of the North German Baroque school. I guess it was an instrument that has the middle ground between the both schools. It has a chorus-reed trumpet that could cloud the manual principal ensembles, not just merely being a colour reed. Yet its ensemble and Mixture together never occurred to me to be as bold, heavy but as smooth as the South German Baroque School. Instead, it has the cheerfulness and a slightly more coarse texture, a hint of French taste also, as well as quite prominent chiff as the North German school.

The voicing can be said to be just German High Baroque if judged by any ordinary ears. And the variation in tastes with regards to voicing these post-WWII instruments can be understood in this context as stated in The Cambridge Companion to the Organ by Stephen Bicknell who contributed a chapter to the book, called Organ Building Today. He seems to explain post-WWII German organ builders in neo-classical revival terms. In that regards, it would not be too excessive to view the Kleuker as the German counterpart of, say, Donald G Harrison's neo-classical Aeolian Skinner on the American continent. Bicknell says the following on p.83-84 of the above-mentioned title:

"Schweitzer could not have anticipated that the modern movement would renew emphasis on function not decoration, and would highlight virtues of design and manufacture rather than those of pure art. None of the organ builders of the early classical revival escaped the influence of modernist thinking. In the work of the builders mentioned above the principles of modern design were executed to the highest standards of individuality and quality. In German-speaking Europe the picture was slightly different. Rudolph von Beckerath, the leading neo-classical builder in Germany after the Second World War, shared many sources of inspiration with his Scandiavian and Dutch colleagues, but did not have their visual sense, usually being content to interpret casework in the form of giant boxes reminscent of commercial office blocks or even banks of loudspeakers. Rieger, Schuke, Ott, Klais, Kleuker and others celebrated the modern world with enthusiasm, incorporating new materials, experimental tonalities, and revelling in the opportunities offered by, for example, daring and radical layout or electric console gadgetry (even though mechanical key action had been revivied for its twin virtues of simplicity and purity).

"However, for the vast majority of organ builders, survival depended not on some great artistic statement but on good commercial use. In West Germany, for example, the post-war boom and the classical revival conspired to produce new organs in great numbers and to generally high standards. To say that there are relatively new bright stars in this galaxy of activity would not be entirely unfair. With characteristic thoroughness German master organ builders are trained at a government college at Ludwigsburg and their style is somewhat homogenised as a result. Also, though the number of firms is many and their size modest (at least compared to a century go), the commercial pressures of a boom period have meant that few have been encouraged to divert resources towards pure art-making such a statement at a time of stiff competition is simply too extravagant. One of the few styles to contrast with the norm of German organ building has come from the firm of Klais, where a more individual family tradition survived the neo-classical revolution. For those who still took refuge in romantic organ music (much decried by the hard-line classicists) the extraordinarily bold and rich palette of big Klais proved the ideal vehicle for the full modernisation of great nineteenth-century works (see Klas 1975)."

Here are a few sound clips on the Kleuker organ:

(1) The very well known fugue of Johann Sebastian Bach in G minor BWV 578, played by the organist Chris Paraskevopoulos at the Detlef Kleuker organ of the First Greek Evangelical Church of Athens, on May 5th, 2007 at the first Bach Festival, organized by this church: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn7bOn5LXwQ.

(2) Jean Guillou plays Bach's Goldberg Variations -- Aria on the Kleuker organ in his own transcription for organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaVOHegcE98.

(3) Bach: Toccata BWV 564. JORGE SÁNCHEZ HERRERA, Kleuker organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3umis3oByA.

That's right. An organ torn between two or even three schools is best for Hong Kong. Because Hong Kong is not one thing or another (it has never been so even while the British were running the place directly) -- any quality that asserts one school of nationalism over another here is bound to present a problem. The principle underpinning the enclave is very simple: secular capitalism. And one should always remember this whilst living here. So over many years at the Causeway Bay church, I had enjoyed the intonation of Kleuker much. I guess this post-WWII instrument was also manufactured in Germany in a way that decidedly tried to tone down German nationalism while retaining a reasonable identity (whatever this means? Perhaps it means only an identifiably Protestant, rather than Roman Catholic organ in that Protestant church), which the manufacturer might have perceived as a problem after witnessing WWII. So it was a pretty neutrally-voiced instrument. I can safely say that was exactly the case, and was well-suited to Hong Kong.

Truly British things were rare in Hong Kong. For instance, when we attended a Methodist primary in the old days, it was a Rodgers installed there. And St John's Anglican had a Rodgers for many years, and later switched to an Allen. To this day, it is still an Allen. So there has been no such thing as British nationalism here even while those people were here. So if you tell me there is a brand called Phoenix or the real-time tone generation brand called Copeman Hart, honestly I only learnt about them here. Apart from Makin, that works with Johannus, I was never aware of any major British-made digital organs in the market.

Usually British things were sold as upmarket products in terms of supermarket goods, such as what you find in Oliver's or City Super. How is a packet of Marks and Spencers hand-cooked chips compared to the Japanese Caribee or even Kettle Chips in terms of price? But when you see expensive things such as church organs were purchased as non-British products, that means there was close to zero British nationalism here.

All I am saying is that, if you want to follow issues regarding nationalism, you may find that you are up against the wall using Hong Kong as an example. It can hardly be used as an international standard for nation-state or anything close to that. It is a non-example that shows you the other side of what is the norm in many other places.

But then you may ask if secular capitalism is the banner here, then Hong Kong is a nation of secular capitalism! But things are not so simple as that. I would tell you that the barracks here are now full of communist soldiers of the PLA. Only when you have your own army can you call a place a true nation-state.

And guess who did what by going to Beijing privately in the mid-1980s? But even after that clandestine rendevouz, no change resulted in the actual ownership of territory of Hong Kong by Britain. But what she has acheived is inviting the atheistic troops to dwell in what were once British barracks. But of course, not until we reviewed some American politics books did we realise that she went there by herself.

One more simple example: the American Thanksgiving Day church service. Where is it held every year? That's right -- you got it. St John's Anglican. So every clumps together like a mess. That's what it is. If you want a positive expression about that, I would tell you that the differences between the British and the Americans are only an allusion to many. They are almost one and the same -- depending on who gets more power at what period in history. They are the same people.

The thing is in communism, an internationalist belief system, all nation-states will in the end melt into non-existence as one world and there would be peace. But do you believe that?

[FelixLowe]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

Hear this version of All Things Bright and Beautiful with Royal Oak. I guess it is an Anglo-American organ again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXVURJ1lQ3Y.

The only criticism of the playing is that the organist leaves no breathing rest between the refrain and the verses. At least he should be "hands off" the manual during those little breaks, while keeping the pedal notes sustained if he wishes to produce a sense of continuity. But now everything in Royal Oak clumps together like a mess.

Perhaps, he tried to do this, thinking that since he was not actually supporting a congregation singing, but merely giving a demo, so he thus became a bit slack in maintaining proper diction.

As a matter of fact, his registration for the first verse is over-the-top. But I don't agree that it has to be light in texture. There is a tendency for Catholics to go soft and gentle in organ playing to cook up a really nice and warm feeling during service, sometimes by going for the "lovely and petite" registration style. But Protestant churches take a different approach -- the organist tends to build up a firm chorus right from the demo playing, using at least one or two foundational tone stops; the pure use of flutes is most unlikely even for mournful ones. The purpose is to give aural impetus and hopefully to encourage more enthusiastic singing from the congregation. It is definitely not an abbey experience. Also in the church where the Kleuker once was, Gregorian chants could never be sung in that place.

And how much more so for the above quoted song, where a cheerful mood is expected. It should be a well-balanced bright registration, with the Mixture on, but without the Cymbel for the first verse. When the Mixture is added, I wonder if you can call it light. It has to be vivid and bright to paint the text for this one for sure. Alternatively the 2' and 1 1/3' may be adopted for the upper voices or the chorus. Also gapped registration is seldom used in Protestant churches. So it would be Principal 8', Gedackt 8', Octave 4', Superoctave 2' and Quint 1 1/3'. However it also works for me if I were to do it with Principal 8', Gedackt 8', Octave 4', Waldflote 2' and Mixture V, which will contain many octave and fifth pitches to fill the gap even without the 2'. For the pedal, I would use Subbasse 16', Bourdon 8' and Choralbass 4'. The overall music doesn't have to be loud, but it needs to be bright. I would avoid using any reed throughout the verses for this one because there is nothing fiery in it. Instead, I would add the Cymbel III or Scharff for the last verse perhaps.

He does need to take the breathing rests between the verses. But his tempo is just fine to me.

The last verse is better to be a reharmonisation to ward off monotony even if no stop change is effected because I don't see how those various verses differ in terms of the title of song.

[LastCorpseStanding]

This is one of those hymns where I liked to start out with 8,4,2 on the Swell, but only 8,2 on the Great, sometimes not even the 4' on the swell. (All principal tone) (I also would not use the 16' Subbass in the pedal, although I rarely used it for regular playing anyway. The organ was so well balanced that the pedal would balance the great without the need to couple.) Gradually, I'd add in the Swell 4' and Mixture, saving the Great 4' till near the end, and topping of with just the Swell Trompette. Never a 16' reed. It just got muddied. I think the legato is an absolute necessity in the lower parts so the melody can have a lively articulation, almost dancing along. I found it really helped the congregation keep in tempo and in spirit. It also helps to do some manuals only playing.

[FelixLowe]

When does a verse become fiery and deserve the use of a reed? On Jordan's Bank the Baptist Cry's second verse is a good example. The attached file is music performed in 1960 by Simon Preston. He was screeching a bit, but to me, he was not being fiery enough for verse 2 although the Clarion 4' was obviously used already. But he hadn't employed sufficient reed. But to me the screeching ensemble for verse 2 deserves some praise, as he was clearly able to demonstrate that he knew the story. To me it would help if he put in a Barpfeife or something to fire it up. But maybe he did not envision what was really going to happen in seven years' time. But the time of his playing it was a very solemn occasion with history in the making, and he was generally able to express the grave sentiments in his rendition as a portent. The last-verse arrangement with the diligent quaver pedalling and the telltale crescendo are particular impressive. I wonder if it was the chief organist who wrote the whole reharmonisation for him, or he wrote it himself.

The following music is the Choir of King's College, Cambridge with congregational singing, accompanied by Simon Preston.

On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry

On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry
announces that the Lord is nigh;
awake and hearken, for he brings
glad tidings of the King of kings.

Then cleansed be every Christian breast;
And furnish for so great a guest!
Yea, let us each our hearts prepare
For Christ to come and enter there.

For thou art our salvation, Lord,
our refuge and our great reward;
without thy grace our souls must fade,
And wither like a flower decayed.

Stretch forth thine hand to heal our sore,
And make us rise, to fall no more;
Once more upon they people shine,
And fill the world with love divine.

All praise, eternal Son, to thee,
whose advent sets thy people free;
whom with the Father we adore
and Holy Ghost for evermore.

Words: Charles Coffin, 1736;
trans. John Chandler, 1837

Music: Winchester New Meter: LM

[FelixLowe]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

Regarding my belief that the Lord has come, and the second coming has taken place quite some time ago already, I am surprised that you used the pessimistic wording "defeatist" to describe it when it was a total victory experience of the Lord. When you said you intended to quit, I am not so sure what exactly you meant.

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

It certainly vexes me to come up with a detailed religio-political explanation for you here in this space about music. However, what I can do is to attach a piece of music for you. And maybe you could get an answer from the words that you sing year in and year out. It is a Toccata rendition of Joy to the World: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0pB0VrBJrQ. When I attended church in those years, this hymn was almost a must every Christmas Eve. So when the lyrics say "the Lord is come", you don't really see the reality that the Lord has come? Also hear this version playing three verses on a Reuter organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd2S9_EUWNM.

In addition to the above answers, perhaps this hymn can explain a little further. Worthy of noting is Preston's praiseworthy screeching in verse 4, that highlights his demonstration that he knew the story -- a related story in verse two of the previous song.


Hark! a thrilling voice is sounding
(1960 performance with King's College Choir, congregation and and Organist Simon Preston)

Hark! a thrilling voice is sounding.
"Christ is nigh," it seems to say;
"Cast away the dreams of darkness,
O ye children of the day."

Startled by the solemn warning,
let the earth-bound soul arise;
Christ, the Sun, all sloth dispelling,
shines upon the morning skies.

Lo! the Lamb, so long expected,
comes with pardon down from heaven;
let us haste, with tears of sorrow,
Once and all to be forgiven;

So when next he comes with glory,
And the world is wrapped in fear,
May he then as our defender,
On the clouds of heaven appear.

Honor, glory, virtue, and merit
to the Father and the Son,
With the co-eternal Spirit,
While unending ages run.

Words: Heavily edited version of translations from Latin, sixth century;
trans. Edward Caswall (1814-1878)
Music: Merton (William Henry Monk, 1823-1889) Meter: 87 87

[FelixLowe]

John Rutter's Variations on Easter Processional for two organs played jointly by Diane Bish and Simon Preston: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbZzTq_D11U.

Alleluia, alleluia,
alleluia, alleluia!

1 O sons and daughters of the King,
whom heavenly hosts in glory sing,
today the grave has lost its sting.
Alleluia!

2 That Easter morn at break of day,
the faithful women went their way
to seek the tomb where Jesus lay.
Alleluia!

3 An angel clad in white they see,
who sat and spoke unto the three,
"Your Lord has gone to Galilee."
Alleluia!

4 When Thomas first the tidings heard
that some had seen the risen Lord,
he doubted the disciples' word.
Lord, have mercy!

5 At night the apostles met in fear;
among them came their Master dear
and said, "My peace be with you here."
Alleluia!

6 "My pierced side, O Thomas, see,
and look upon my hands, my feet;
not faithless but believing be."
Alleluia!

7 No longer Thomas then denied;
he saw the feet, the hands, the side.
"You are my Lord and God!" he cried.
Alleluia!

8 How blest are they who have not seen
and yet whose faith has constant been,
for they eternal life shall win.
Alleluia!

Final Ending:
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

This hymn was written in Latin by Franciscan (Minorite) friar Jean Tisserand (b. France, 15th century; d. 1494); it was found in an untitled booklet printed in Paris between 1518 and 1536. Tune Information:

Although it was not published until 1623 in the Parisian collection Airs sur les hymnes sacrez, odes et noels in four parts, O FILII ET FILIAE is thought to be contemporaneous with the text. The tune appears with small variations in a number of later songbooks and hymnals.

A joyful tune, O FILII ET FILIAE is appropriate for unison singing, but some of the stanzas and the final set of "alleluias" could easily be sung in parts. Sing the opening "alleluias,” which frame the entire carol, once at the beginning and once again at the conclusion. Use strong accompaniment for the "alleluias" and lighter accompaniment for the stanzas. This folk-dance tune needs to proceed with one pulse per bar. Harmony singing and accompaniment must not slow down the tune's dance-like character.
--Psalter Hymnal Handbook

[FelixLowe]

Listen to two pieces in this:http://www.ahlborn-galanti.com/MP3s/Demo2.html


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[FelixLowe]

Originally Posted by FelixLowe

When does a verse become fiery and deserve the use of a reed? On Jordan's Bank the Baptist Cry's second verse is a good example. The attached file is music performed in 1960 by Simon Preston. He was screeching a bit, but to me, he was not being fiery enough for verse 2 although the Clarion 4' was obviously used already. But he hadn't employed sufficient reed. But to me the screeching ensemble for verse 2 deserves some praise, as he was clearly able to demonstrate that he knew the story. To me it would help if he put in a Barpfeife or something to fire it up. But maybe he did not envision what was really going to happen in seven years' time. But the time of his playing it was a very solemn occasion with history in the making, and he was generally able to express the grave sentiments in his rendition as a portent. The last-verse arrangement with the diligent quaver pedalling and the telltale crescendo are particular impressive. I wonder if it was the chief organist who wrote the whole reharmonisation for him, or he wrote it himself.

The following music is the Choir of King's College, Cambridge with congregational singing, accompanied by Simon Preston.

On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry

On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry
announces that the Lord is nigh;
awake and hearken, for he brings
glad tidings of the King of kings.

Then cleansed be every Christian breast;
And furnish for so great a guest!
Yea, let us each our hearts prepare
For Christ to come and enter there.

For thou art our salvation, Lord,
our refuge and our great reward;
without thy grace our souls must fade,
And wither like a flower decayed.

Stretch forth thine hand to heal our sore,
And make us rise, to fall no more;
Once more upon thy people shine,
And fill the world with love divine.

All praise, eternal Son, to thee,
whose advent sets thy people free;
whom with the Father we adore
and Holy Ghost for evermore.

Words: Charles Coffin, 1736;
trans. John Chandler, 1837

Music: Winchester New Meter: LM

As a matter of fact, the lyrics in this one provide clues like never before. Two peoples are being referred to in this one: the Christians (as in Christian breast) and the other one is guess what? The song describes the other one with a tiny clue that applies the word "guest". A guest is not part of the host in this context of "We versus They". So who do you think is the other people being referred to in the song? If you still don't get the answer then, look further, where it says "For Christ to come and enter THERE. That means it is not "here" when it uses "there". Where is there? There is a printing error in my earlier posted message. It should read: "Once more upon thy people shine". But why didn't the composer write: "Once more upon our people shine?" Then it proceeds to say "And fill the world with love divine. It shows that that people have it first and then the world will have it after. It cannot be more obvious than this one amongst Christian works. You could say the writer or the performer, or both, are leaking essential info.