Digital Organ Choice

[LastCorpseStanding]

Any new idea for registering the English hymn Jerusalem?

I think I would have for the little short prelude with: Principal 8', Rohrflote 8', Octave 4, Gedackt 4', Sesquialtera II, Waldflote 2' and Mixture IV.

Pedal: Subbasse 16', Gedackt 8, Choralbass 4'

Then the first verse would be: Mixture IV off.

The interlude: Mixture IV on again with the same stops

The second verse would start by drawing the Trumpet 8' (the very buzzy type) with the same stops and Mixture IV.

Postlude: same stops as the second verse.

Hear this version that has another idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAA0A...eature=related.

I find that an interesting registration. I come from the side of the fence where the flutes have absolutely no place in the principal chorus. I never, EVER use them together - I just hate the sound, especially the 4' and 2' flutes, and even worse if the 4' is an harmonic flute.

Some organist add them for fullness, but I find you sacrifice too much clarity, and, besides which, a properly designed and voiced organ doesn't need to have flutes added to the chorus. I think it is just an ugly sound. In fact, unless using a very full registration, I rarely used the Subbass with on the pedal. Didn't need to. The pedal principals were set up in such a way as to perfectly balance the Great without it, and without the need for the Great to Pedal coupler.

Personally, for "Jerusalem", my favourite registration was Great to Mixture, with full Swell, closing the box immediately after the first chord, and then slowly opening again throughout the intro. The St. George's organ could hide full swell behind the Great, so opening the box just a hair provided a nice growl in the background. I used to close is fully for the middle parts of the verses.

[FelixLowe]

I find that an interesting registration. I come from the side of the fence where the flutes have absolutely no place in the principal chorus. I never, EVER use them together - I just hate the sound, especially the 4' and 2' flutes, and even worse if the 4' is an harmonic flute.

Some organist add them for fullness, but I find you sacrifice too much clarity, and, besides which, a properly designed and voiced organ doesn't need to have flutes added to the chorus. I think it is just an ugly sound. In fact, unless using a very full registration, I rarely used the Subbass with on the pedal. Didn't need to. The pedal principals were set up in such a way as to perfectly balance the Great without it, and without the need for the Great to Pedal coupler.

Personally, for "Jerusalem", my favourite registration was Great to Mixture, with full Swell, closing the box immediately after the first chord, and then slowly opening again throughout the intro. The St. George's organ could hide full swell behind the Great, so opening the box just a hair provided a nice growl in the background. I used to close is fully for the middle parts of the verses.

The flutes and principals can definitely mix. I guess you just have to be careful with the harmonic flutes. Others are less cloudy and much clearer. But it all depends on the acoustics and size of your hall. As a matter of fact, if stops are limited in number, it is just a way of propping up the volume. Also because in the past ten years, in the place where I attended church there was a real pipe instrument with limited stops. So that's how I got the idea from when registering songs. In a way that helps to simplify the tonal depiction procedure. So with a pipe organ, the aural effect may not always be the same as you would get with an electronic instrument.

Your idea about using the Swell for the hymn Jerusalem is what I guess what they often do in England because there are many dynamics marks in that hymn. If you really want to observe them all, you would just have to use the Swell.

But I just guess I would make it more simple for congregational singing. That's how I came up with that. It was a simple way around.

When you play for church, and use your Swell flexibly, do you really feel the congregation sings in volume accordingly?

For the pedal, I think the standard bare minimum provision is the Subbasse. But if you have a bigger instrument, you would have the choice of using Principal 16'. But I would reserve it for more ebulliant hymns. I guess I could also add the Posaune 16' for the short postlude phrase of Jerusalem. That would make it more interesting with a little bit of rumbling at the end.

[FelixLowe]

Personally, for "Jerusalem", my favourite registration was Great to Mixture, with full Swell, closing the box immediately after the first chord, and then slowly opening again throughout the intro. The St. George's organ could hide full swell behind the Great, so opening the box just a hair provided a nice growl in the background. I used to close is fully for the middle parts of the verses.

Do you mean kind of like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-_DA1c1EhQ?

[FelixLowe]

Have fun with this one with a fairground organ, Larry Kern's Stinson band organ "Ambassador" : Frank Mill's Music Box Dancer and Finale from William Tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7foL0IOk88

[FelixLowe]

Wurlitzer 105 Band Organ playing a Wayne Holton arrangement of "Rock'in around the Christmas Tree". Christmas "Rocks"! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHKQ...om=PL&index=38.

[FelixLowe]

It's true that when it comes to the effects of stops, a pipe instrument gives more clarity and cleaner sound, something that one cannot assess accurately unless using a pipe instrument. But it is not true that, as one organist I met at a Kowloon church that has a Kleuker there as well, that one couldn't pick up the skills from a digital organ. There was a young woman organist, who actually said that to me. I think she herself had picked that skill up out of practice on a digital instrument only. I honestly don't think she was rich enough to have built a pipe instrument for her home as a music student. She could have been just pouring cold shoulders.

It's natural for someone like her to give that kind of remarks because classical organ playing skills are quite rare in Hong Kong. That's why a music teacher even told me that in the early 1980s, she was charging $HK800 ($US102) per hour lesson. That was quite a bit. Can you believe that? You can appreciate how rare that skill was in the 1980s.

[FelixLowe]

I want to introduce to you a piece of Southerly Chinese Classical music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Diey3...om=PL&index=15, which is typically the style of a band of ancient instruments playing together, with string bass, cymbels and flutes. The title is the Victory Strain or something. Nice, flowing and grand. And one can compare this to having drawn the Mixture and Cymbel II. This music was created not in China, but Hong Kong when the British were still around in 1974, and has to do with a renowned TV series of Chinese folklores. They were still airing them until recently. I am not sure if they have been pulled altogether by now. I have seen some episodes lately, not very educational ones, though. Mainly I feel the series was produced to insinuate and contrast with British governance. They mainly served to reflect some of the age-old practices in China in ancient time in the imperial court. But this music to me must have been the forerunner of organ music in the sense of a wide range of organ tones trying to approximate ancient instruments.

[FelixLowe]

I find that an interesting registration. I come from the side of the fence where the flutes have absolutely no place in the principal chorus. I never, EVER use them together - I just hate the sound, especially the 4' and 2' flutes, and even worse if the 4' is an harmonic flute.

The more we listen to organ music, the more we are finding that despite some people say one thing is not to be used with another, almost any stop combination is possible. Even some of the stops which are used for solo purposes are also used in ensemble playing. And that's why there are remarks that say Diane Bish's performance on John Stanley's Trumpet Voluntary was terrible. In the later sections, the English Trumpets did clash with a bit of loud clang. But she is Diane Bish. After all, it is not that horrible because the hall here was big enough. It is to do with Doppel effects. When the space is larger and one is faraway from the rumbling, the rumbling may not be quite like rumbling.

Most organists would have played the first section on the same manual, whereas she did it as a solo work for the right hand and even played it one octave lower with a 16' En chamade. Clearly in the ending section, I guess she was even playing the 16' En Chamade and the English Trumpets both on the same manual as if both were ensemble stops, and the clanging was particularly severe.

Let's hear her play again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl3eZk9J3xQ.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Hi Felix. I can see on a smaller instrument using the flutes for volume if you think it's necessary, but I still tend to find it an objectionable sound. And I was referring to pipe organs as well, not just digital organs.

My decision about the Subbass was primarily a St. George's thing, although I began to follow that method on other organs as I liked the results. I tended not to use it until both Swell and Great were registered past the mixtures, usually waiting until there was either the Great 8' trumpet or Swell 16' trumpet drawn. As I said, St. G's balanced beautifully that way, and the Subbass wasn't necessary in my opinion. I found it too heavy.

The congregation doesn't always follow the volume changes in the organ, but sometimes they do. Jerusalem is one of those examples where they do, and actually showed some sensitivity to the words. I found closing the box in the middle helped the big buildup to the high E.

Honestly, there aren't too many hymns where I actually touch the Swell box, this was just an example that happened to come up. For the final verse of "O Come, all ye Faithful", I use the box right at the end. I usually go to the swell for the first and second instances of "o come let us adore him" with the box only half open, then open, while I stack the Great and Pedal with everything under the sun, so that that crashing chord, (I believe it's and augmented E major chord) has a huge impact. I don't think you can use the box extensively - it just gets tiring - but thoughtfully used adds another dimension to hymns that can benefit.

I wasn't impressed with Diane Bish's version of that either. But then, I'm not overly impressed with Diane Bish at all. Yes, she's a fine organist, and I won't deny the talent, but something about how she does things just doesn't do it for me.

My preference to leave out the flutes comes partly from my training early on. I suppose I learned not to like it, if that makes sense. As I was always exposed to pure principal chorus, the addition of the flutes was jarring. I can see using an 8' flute to warm up a prinicipal for solo work, but in general chorus, it doesn't work for me.

[FelixLowe]

Hi Felix. I can see on a smaller instrument using the flutes for volume if you think it's necessary, but I still tend to find it an objectionable sound. And I was referring to pipe organs as well, not just digital organs.

My decision about the Subbass was primarily a St. George's thing, although I began to follow that method on other organs as I liked the results. I tended not to use it until both Swell and Great were registered past the mixtures, usually waiting until there was either the Great 8' trumpet or Swell 16' trumpet drawn. As I said, St. G's balanced beautifully that way, and the Subbass wasn't necessary in my opinion. I found it too heavy.

The congregation doesn't always follow the volume changes in the organ, but sometimes they do. Jerusalem is one of those examples where they do, and actually showed some sensitivity to the words. I found closing the box in the middle helped the big buildup to the high E.

Honestly, there aren't too many hymns where I actually touch the Swell box, this was just an example that happened to come up. For the final verse of "O Come, all ye Faithful", I use the box right at the end. I usually go to the swell for the first and second instances of "o come let us adore him" with the box only half open, then open, while I stack the Great and Pedal with everything under the sun, so that that crashing chord, (I believe it's and augmented E major chord) has a huge impact. I don't think you can use the box extensively - it just gets tiring - but thoughtfully used adds another dimension to hymns that can benefit.

I wasn't impressed with Diane Bish's version of that either. But then, I'm not overly impressed with Diane Bish at all. Yes, she's a fine organist, and I won't deny the talent, but something about how she does things just doesn't do it for me.

My preference to leave out the flutes comes partly from my training early on. I suppose I learned not to like it, if that makes sense. As I was always exposed to pure principal chorus, the addition of the flutes was jarring. I can see using an 8' flute to warm up a prinicipal for solo work, but in general chorus, it doesn't work for me.

Volume is one factor. But there is more reason than that. It's to do with word painting. I wouldn't doubt the possibility of the combination of Principal 8', Octave 4' and Waldflote 2', for example. If you tell me, one should not mix the Waldflote in, just because the other two are principal tone, that is hardly convincing. There is also a well-known registration, where a Flute 8' is mixed with an Octave 4' for artistic reasons. Again if you say that is objectionable, that may have limited the rich tonal possibilities of the organ.

About the Subbass, I don't fully catch what you said. Do you mean you would pedal with an 8' stop, but seldom with the Subbass 16? So you were saying unless you had a Mixture stop drawn on the Great or the Swell, you would not add the Subbass to the pedal. But earlier, you were saying that you would go for Principal 16', which is even stronger than the Subbass. However in hymn tune playing, I think the Protestant standard is commonly taught that the pedal is always used in congregational singing, though if you say you can bear with the Principal 16' tone for all the hymns, that's your organ. But I do know certain Roman Catholics have formerly remarked negatively on consistent pedalling throughout a hymn -- calling such efforts the results of "unpleasant sounds".

On those two English hymns you cited, Jerusalem and O Come, All Ye Faithful, I agree that the Swell is always used. The Prom Concert makes it such a familiar idea that there are dynamics changes throughout. O Come, All Ye Faithful is an example of common experience in every Anglican Cathedral on Christmas Eve. It is tritely done every time the Willcocks' arrangements are played. I guess he gave the dynamics hairpins in all the designated places in his music.

The thing is, I feel they have made a meal out of a molehill, so to speak, with the Jerusalem hymn. It is a satirical work about England. Some people say that should be made a national anthem. In all honesty, I think chances are close to zero, from a nationalistic point of view, if considering it be used to replace God Save the Queen. I am not saying that it should not be sung at all. It can be used as a hymn, but should not be the national anthem. Fine music, just on the words, I wonder if the British really understand what they are singing. I don't know -- maybe it was deliberate. I think the dynamics changes are exactly the meal out of the molehill for that one. I also think the Posaune 16' for the pedal for the ending postlude is rather unnecessary, too, although I once thought it could be interesting.

Something about Diane Bish doesn't work for you? Is she a difficult woman? I only know her show is on every Wednesday morning here, and know about her playing. Other than that, I know nothing about her. I am planning to purchase some of her CDs next year, as a matter of fact. She seems to have great interest in the organs of Germany.

In conclusion, are you in essence saying that one should not double the principal with a flute of the same pitch, or are you saying that flutes should not be mixed with principal stops in general? If it is the latter, is it bigotry or just your musical taste, or did your teacher not allow you to do that?

[FelixLowe]

Earlier, I have written an example of gapped registration at the place where the Kleuker was in Causeway Bay, Hong Kong. However, from my memory there was another occasion of such practice. I think it happened during Advent on Sunday in 2002, where the Yale-trained organist was playing Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus (Hyfrydol).

What she did was that it was used as a recessional hymn -- both the demo and the first verse were played with Principal 8', (perhaps with the Rohrflote 8' also) and Octave 4', all coupled to the Subbass 16'.

For the second verse, which had a rewritten bass of quaver pedalling throughout the hymn, the registration was the addition of the Cymbel III to the abovementioned stops. All were coupled to the pedal, from what I can remember. That was another occasion where the Yale-trained organist was showcasing her impressive part writing and performance skills. Surprisingly, though, the first three parts of SATB remained faithful to the original.

As you can imagine, given the extremely loud and bright Cymbel that Kleuker had, the result was extremely dramatic as the gap was huge, in the absence of pitches at 2 2/3', 2' and the Mixture stop. The result was extremely impressive, but she was obviously doing that for special effects.

And because the Cymbel was coupled down to her 16' tone pedalling, the effect was like fast drum beats with bells ringing at the same time.

[LastCorpseStanding]

I'll try to be more clear, Felix, about the Subbass. In general, the volume of the stop is not the issue, it is the scaling. the principal is, by design, a more narrow scale stop, and I prefer to use the 16' principal without the 16' Subbass in most of my hymn playing, and indeed in many other works. Obviously, I would not use the prinicipal in a piece requiring softer registrations, that IS the job of the Subbass. Again, the issue is scaling, and I find the Subbass too woofy for hymn playing, and, as a stop, it is generally a little slower to speak than the prinicipals, so it sometimes makes the pedals sound late. I do use the Subbass in chorus playing once I start to pull reeds, as I then feel the extra oomph becomes necessary.

I'm sure this is just a personal preference. I think most organists use both 16' stops together in hymn playing, I just don't like the thickness of the sound as much. I prefer the cleaner speaking prinicipal 16'. Yes, my organ at St. George's was well balanced to be able to pull it off. I made sure they voiced it accordingly. If you listen to the YouTube audio clips I posted, you'll probably be able to tell when that 16' Subbass is pulled and when it isn't.

With Diane Bish, yes she's superbly talented, but for some reason I just have a very hard time listening to her play. I wish I could explain the problem, but I can't - not even to myself.

On your final questions - no, I would generally not double principals and flutes of the same rank, and no, I would not normally mix them together when playing different ranks. It's really just personal taste, but I suppose that comes in part from training. I got used to principals without the doubling or any other added flutes, so it sounds odd to me when it's there. But keep in mind that this "rule" for me is reallly in relation to chorus type playing in hymns and the like. I do like the idea of both an 8' flute and principal together when using them as a solo stop. I find the flute helps to richen and warm up the principal.

[FelixLowe]

I'll try to be more clear, Felix, about the Subbass. In general, the volume of the stop is not the issue, it is the scaling. the principal is, by design, a more narrow scale stop, and I prefer to use the 16' principal without the 16' Subbass in most of my hymn playing, and indeed in many other works. Obviously, I would not use the prinicipal in a piece requiring softer registrations, that IS the job of the Subbass. Again, the issue is scaling, and I find the Subbass too woofy for hymn playing, and, as a stop, it is generally a little slower to speak than the prinicipals, so it sometimes makes the pedals sound late. I do use the Subbass in chorus playing once I start to pull reeds, as I then feel the extra oomph becomes necessary.

I'm sure this is just a personal preference. I think most organists use both 16' stops together in hymn playing, I just don't like the thickness of the sound as much. I prefer the cleaner speaking prinicipal 16'. Yes, my organ at St. George's was well balanced to be able to pull it off. I made sure they voiced it accordingly. If you listen to the YouTube audio clips I posted, you'll probably be able to tell when that 16' Subbass is pulled and when it isn't.

With Diane Bish, yes she's superbly talented, but for some reason I just have a very hard time listening to her play. I wish I could explain the problem, but I can't - not even to myself.

On your final questions - no, I would generally not double principals and flutes of the same rank, and no, I would not normally mix them together when playing different ranks. It's really just personal taste, but I suppose that comes in part from training. I got used to principals without the doubling or any other added flutes, so it sounds odd to me when it's there. But keep in mind that this "rule" for me is reallly in relation to chorus type playing in hymns and the like. I do like the idea of both an 8' flute and principal together when using them as a solo stop. I find the flute helps to richen and warm up the principal.

I see what you mean.

Can you give an example on when to apply your an all-flute chorus? For what kinds of song would you do that -- with a full flutey chorus of 8', 4' and 2'? Could you name one or two songs? Because immediately there is a duality that has appeared. When would it be an all-principal chorus, and when would it be an all-flute one?

Meanwhile, I wonder if you could help with identifying the third kind of Principal tone playing Mysterium Divinum, the incisive one cited by the guy recording the explanation about the flues in this recording: http://www.ahlborn-galanti.com/MP3s/Demo3.html. He has identified the first two as American Classic and British, but he did not give the name of the third type, which he identified as merely keen and incisive? What is its name? Is it a European one?

Therefore, as you have heard, if it is the Anglo-American principals you are talking about, it is a flutey tone with some stringy qualities in them, whereas the third kind is really like a slightly keen string stop. So when you talk about just the duality in simple terms, it is really a bit vague to me. I guess you could be talking about either his first and second demonstrated types of principals.... Because there is already flutiness in the principals, that's how I would imagine you don't see it as appropriate to double them with flutes, for it would make the chorus too cloudy. But if it is the lean and keen type that the organs have, then it would be a different story, I suppose.

[FelixLowe]

What do you think of this Nicaea, the interlude and reharmonisation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWCXI...eature=related? Standard playing with the typical registration for the first verse, although he omitted showing the middle verses.

Personally, I think he has used a Principal 8', Rohrflote 8', Octavian Flute 4' and Spizflote 2'.

Then more Principal tones were added for the interlude, possibly the 4' and 2', as well as the Quinte 1 1/3'(?).

Just before he played the last-verse arrangement, he seems to have added a Mixture. The Fagotto 16' was also added in the middle of the final verse to the bass.

The song is memorable with regards to the place where I attended church with the Kleuker because it was used as the second hymn when I visited it for the first time. His registration resembled what I heard there. It is a curious affair because one necessarily thinks that for a hymn of praise like this one, why not have more principal tones or even have trumpet 8' in it? But things are not so simple as that. The truth is, in many renditions I have heard in the past, live and on CD, they always start with a relatively soft ensemble. This may have to do with the scene in the book of Revelation, on which this song is based. The angels are described to have covered their faces and praised Him softly in front of the throne.

At my first visit to the Causeway Bay church, it was the Royal College-trained organist playing. She introduced variations to certain phrases in Verse 2 and had an arrangement for the final verse, this from what I can remember.

[FelixLowe]

Also watch this presentation of Praise, My Soul, the King of Heaven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1LnxqOtrjw.