Digital Organ Choice

[LastCorpseStanding]

Let me say at the outset, that there is no such thing as an out-of-the-box Phoenix Organ. ALL Phoenix organs are custom made, and custom designed for each individual installation. And as part of each installation, Phoenix Organs are individually voiced; usually by Don Anderson.

I wasn't aware that all the Phoenix stuff was custom. That's good to know for the future. I'll have to have a look around Ottawa (we just moved up here from Ajax) and see what's around that I can get a chance to play. I'm interested to know how they compare to the other instruments I've played recently.

I know Classic has a bit of a bad rap around here for poor service, and one of the local piano dealers is pushing out alot of Rodgers. I played one at their store (the lowest possible model, I think) and it was a complete disaster save for a couple stops.

Part of the problem as I see it, and I think Allen is the same way, is that they seem to draw on different sample sets depending on what level of organ you are buying. That, to me, is a ridiculous approach to building an organ. They essentially say, "there's no such thing as a good small organ". I assume Phoenix doesn't do that. In some ways, I'd rather have a smaller instrument that's thoughfully built. Channel some of the money you save into extra equipment on the audio end, and the load per speaker is greatly reduced. I'd bet you could get an organ that, although small, sounds very full and broad.

[Clarion]

I wasn't aware that all the Phoenix stuff was custom. That's good to know for the future. I'll have to have a look around Ottawa (we just moved up here from Ajax) and see what's around that I can get a chance to play. I'm interested to know how they compare to the other instruments I've played recently.

This is my Phoenix surround-sound home organ:

I know Classic has a bit of a bad rap around here for poor service . . .

My previous organ was an analog Classic c. 1983. Clarion Baker, the person I dealt with way back then, was an absolute pleasure to deal with; but the current bunch there were less than helpful when I decided to buy a new organ back in 2007. Until then, I had never heard of Phoenix Organ; and the fact that they were located in my old home . . . It was only after an extensive research that I figured a Phoenix Organ might be a really good idea. The rest is history.

and one of the local piano dealers is pushing out alot of Rodgers. I played one at their store (the lowest possible model, I think) and it was a complete disaster save for a couple stops.

I've been meaning to get down to Toronto to hear Rodgers' latest and greatest, but from the reports I've been hearing, Rodgers has a lot of catching up to do. With authorized Rodgers dealers falsely trashing Phoenix Organs, obviously with Rodgers' blessing; that suggests that the only sales vehicle Rodgers has left, is trashing the competition with blatant lies and innuendoes.

Part of the problem as I see it, and I think Allen is the same way, is that they seem to draw on different sample sets depending on what level of organ you are buying. That, to me, is a ridiculous approach to building an organ. They essentially say, "there's no such thing as a good small organ". I assume Phoenix doesn't do that.

You are absolutely correct. The inner voicing specs on my home organ are mostly identical to the largest of cathedral installations, with the proviso, that some of the actual voices may be substituted for those better suited for a home installation.

The only way my home installation differs from a cathedtral installation is the number and power of amplifiers and speakers. For my home, I have two main speakers; two sub woofers; and two rear channel surround sound speakers.

In some ways, I'd rather have a smaller instrument that's thoughfully built. Channel some of the money you save into extra equipment on the audio end, and the load per speaker is greatly reduced. I'd bet you could get an organ that, although small, sounds very full and broad.

An organ that sounds small but full, would be typical of a modest tracker instrument. And that's where I like the Phoenix with it's Baroque organ and it's close up and personal chiffy, breathy, and sometimes even spitty sounds. For sure, it doesn't sound like Notre Dame in Paris lost in a sea of reverberation; but as a small articulate low wind pressure tracker so authentic, that you sometimes feel that you can simply reach out and touch the pipes; I am satisfied that it performs in an exemplary manner.

[FelixLowe]

Hi Clarion,

The only way my home installation differs from a cathedtral installation is the number and power of amplifiers and speakers. For my home, I have two main speakers; two sub woofers; and two rear channel surround sound speakers. An organ that sounds small but full, would be typical of a modest tracker instrument. And that's where I like the Phoenix with it's Baroque organ and it's close up and personal chiffy, breathy, and sometimes even spitty sounds.

Is it possible to take a glimpse of the stop list of the Baroque section of your Phoenix? How would you describe it? Do the sounds come out as English Baroque like the Rodgerses in general, or South German Baroque in the Austrian style, like the ordinary Ahlborn? I might think it could be a kind of a neo-Baroque like the post-1950 American Aeolian Skinner.

But after I have heard some of the music from this link: http://www.phoenixorgans.com/recordings.htm provided by the brand's website, I can confirm that its Baroque voicing is, no doubt, in the English Baroque style. It is the kind of voicing one could have heard around 1700 from Queen Anne's time up to the Great Exhibition of 1851 and perhaps beyond. It was also the common voicing in the United States in the 19th century, such as the Hook and Hastings pipe organs. But it is not the kind of tone one would associate with English churches, of post-colonial era, in the modern Anglican context in England. I would think the present tones associated with King's College Choir and Westminster Abbey would be the "English Cathedral" style or German Romantic voicing, as would be what you said the brand would have it for the default mode.

To me, both Rodgers and Phoenix's Baroque are of the English Baroque style -- just that the former is comparatively mellow and made to sound sweeter, and the latter more historical and truer to the tonal diction of the era reminescent of sounds heard around the founding the union between England and Scotland.

And since you said every Phoenix is custom-made, did you hand-pick those stops for the "four organs" in it, or they had some set menus for you to choose from? Also, is it a fixed policy that a customer must swallow all four organs in one in every purchase? Do they charge less if the customer only wants to buy one sample set of his or her choice?

Regards
Felix

[Clarion]

Is it possible to take a glimpse of the stop list of the Baroque section of your Phoenix?

Phoenix 344 Baroque source
Great
1 Bordun 16 ms
2 Principal 8 m
3 Rohrflote 8 ms
4 Quintadena 8 st
5 Octave 4 m
6 Lieblichflote 4 sj
7 Superoctave 2 m
8 Mixture V sc
9 Trompete 8 h

Choir
1 Principal 8 m
2 Gedeckt 8 sc
3 Quintadena 8 st
4 Octave 4 m
5 Spitzflote 4 sc
6 Nasard 2-2/3 ms
7 Superoctave 2 m
8 Terz 1-3/5 ms
9 Mixture V sc
10 Corno di Bassetto 16 as
11 Krummhorn 8 sc
12 Trompete 8 h

Swell
1 Principal 8 ms
2 Gedeckt 8 ms
3 Violoncello 8 st
4 Cello Celeste 8 st
5 Octave 4 ms
6 Rohrflote 4 sc
7 Gedeckt 2 ms
8 Mixture V sc
9 Dulzian 16 ms
10 Trompete 8 ms
11 Oboe 8 k
12 Klarine 4 sj

Pedal
1 Contra Violone 32 st
2 Principal 16 ms
3 Subbass 16 ms
4 Gedeckt 16 st
5 Violone 16 st
6 Octave 8 d
7 Gedeckt 8 ms
8 Choralbass 4 d
9 Bassoon 32 as
10 Posaune 16 k
11 Trompete 8 sj

Sources
sc St. Catharine's Cathedral, St. Catherine's,
ON, Canada 1990 Letourneau

sp Emmanuel Parish Church, Southport, England
1913 Harrison & Harrison

h First United Methodist, Holland, Michigan, USA
1982 Harrison & Harrison

ms Mark St. United Church, Peterborough, Canada
1965 Hallman

k First Presbyterian, Kilgore, Texas, USA
1949 Aeolian Skinner

as First Methodist, Houston, Texas, USA
1965 Aeolian Skinner

sj St. John's Anglican Church, Peterborough, Canada
1956 Casavant

t St. Thomas Anglican Church, Toronto, Canada
1990 Guilbault-Therrien

cc Parr Hall, Warrington, England
1875 Cavaille-Coll

bp Bedford Parish Church, Leigh,(Manchester) Eng
1922 Harrison & Harrison

mh Mossley Hill Parish Church, Liverpool, England
1937 Willis

st Christ the King Cathedral, Hamilton, Canada
1937 Steinmeyer

ch Chichester Cathedral, England
1985 Hill/Mander

icm Immaculate Conception Church, Montreal
1961 von Beckerath

m Eglise St. Vincent, Merignac, France
1994 Guillemin

w Ascension and St. Agnes, Washington, DC
2000 Letourneau

[FelixLowe]

Hello Clarion,

Thanks for your information. The stop list you provided definitely looks like a German specification. But the voicing, as I have heard it myself, seems to be the English Baroque voicing. To me though, the English Baroque organ, given the way it sounds, is a thing of the past. We have never even had much opportunity to hear it properly in this part of the world, Hong Kong, even when the British were around. Some of these organs may have existed at some stage during the 156 years of British rule.

For the past twenty years or so, it has always been Rodgers, Allen and Ahlborn, which are more popularly installed in this part of the mixed British Crown land and Chinese territory of Hong Kong. However, rarely do these digital ones sound properly. The only occasion that impresses me was an American woman playing what I believed was an analogue Rodgers at Union Church on Kennedy Road, Wanchai back in 1998 at Christmas. Her accompaniment for congregational singing was mesmerising and floor-shaking. Other than that, I must say the only other place that has impressed me was the China Congregation Church (Congregationalism), that has had a Kleuker pipe organ of South German Tradition installed in there. With merely 18 stops or so to meddle with, I noticed that the organists there could do magic with them, creating various ensembles with nuances that sounded French when playing hymns of French origin and German for others under normal circumstances. I often wondered how they did it with that few stops. But the church is now being demolished for some reasons.

Having said that, some English organs seem to have their own unique taste and loveliness when they are of a modest size, and when one hears it from a short distance, one can have a personal feel for its breathiness and characteristically soft (or utter lack of) chiff, and their mellow speech. But when heard from afar, they do have a speech clarity issue (I really think so), unless it is the truer historical English Baroque that is used for its coarser and more chiffy voices. But it is not nice to hear it at a short distance, as it could sound raucous and "spitty", as you suggested before. The Conacher organ of 1877, for example, has Romatically singing principal tones, not unlike those in the Rodgerses. But I do think the lack of chiff could have speech clarity problems when heard from afar, although it can be lovely to hear it intimately, such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tb6vUw8g.

I sometimes find the Rodgerses are interesting instruments: their ordinary principal tones are a kind of English Romantic voices, but overall when the full organ is used, it is somewhat capable of sounding like a Baroque instrument. I wonder how they do that.

Regards
Felix

[Clarion]

Do the sounds come out as English Baroque like the Rodgerses in general, or South German Baroque in the Austrian style, like the ordinary Ahlborn? I might think it could be a kind of a neo-Baroque like the post-1950 American Aeolian Skinner.

But after I have heard some of the music from this link: http://www.phoenixorgans.com/recordings.htm provided by the brand's website, I can confirm that its Baroque voicing is, no doubt, in the English Baroque style.

I have absolutley no knowledge of English Baroque. The term conjures visions of the works of Henry VIII being played on a kazoo, accompanied by a harpsicord.

There are a couple hours or more of Phoenix samples located on their Irish website:

http://www.phoenix-organs.co.uk/audio.html

You won't find any N German sounds there! It's English Romantic all the way, regardless of what they are playing.

[FelixLowe]

Hi there,

Recently, however, it has come to my knowledge as I stumbled across a German company dealing in a brand called Gloria digital organs, that has some higher models boasting sampling from a specific historical German Baroque Silbermann organ. Is there any one for Silbermann here?

The Silbermann organs had characteristically strong chiffing, like the North German organs, but they did not have the lean voicing to the same degree. But they had golden Mixtures.

Regards
Felix

[Clarion]

I can confirm that its Baroque voicing is, no doubt, in the English Baroque style. It is the kind of voicing one could have heard around 1700 from Queen Anne's time up to the Great Exhibition of 1851 and perhaps beyond. It was also the common voicing in the United States in the 19th century, such as the Hook and Hastings pipe organs.

Since 54% of the United States population has German roots; you would figure that Germanic culture would predominate. Albeit, the German pioneers may have been uncultured workhorses, who did the grunt work, clearing land etal, and then selling the improved land to cultured pantywaist English who didn't want to get their lace cuffs dirty. Much of the German emmigration to America was heavily promoted and financed by Queen Anne. She wanted a presence in the Colonies to offset the French before the French took over everything! She sent promotional stuff all down the Rhine, inviting Rhinelanders to enjoy a free trip to the Colonies.

What better antagonists to send to the Colonies, than the Rhinelanders who had been at war with the French forever, fighting over possession of Alsace Lorraine. They hated not only the French, but the papist Medici controlled French monarchy. And from such, came our United Empire Loyalists who during the American Revolution, remained loyal to the Crown, their British benefactor. In 1800, there were only 4 counties in Ontario, with names like: Darmstadt, Nassau, Hesse, or something like that; and in York County, school was taught in German.

But when it comes to Canadian organs, the irony is, that most of them are built by the French: Casavant, LeTorneau, etal. [/quote]

[Clarion]

Recently, however, it has come to my knowledge as I stumbled across a German company dealing in a brand called Gloria digital organs, that has some higher models boasting sampling from a specific historical German Baroque Silbermann organ. Is there any one for Silbermann here?

IIRC, they sell Hauptwerk samples.

[FelixLowe]

Hello Clarion,

But in this day and age, the South German voicing of a highly devotional character depicting a brightness against the backdrop of meditative mysteriousness is passe, and the English Baroque painting the grandeur is just an imperial past.

I much prefer the streamlined tonal character of the North German Baroque school. There is no spitty noises; the overall tonal design is lean, voguish, chic, colourful with a pastel tint to it. There is no mysterious nuance to any of its speech. Albeit so old a tradition, the North German Baroque sounds come like a new modern voice. The Cymbel is also golden and elegant. There is also a special loveliness to the Kaleidescope of ensembles and single-stop playing. To it a Festival Trumpet, a Harmonic Trumpet and a Concert Flute can be added in a custom design to play the English works.

The Festival Trumpet is, I am sure you are aware, for playing the solo line in certain English wedding pieces by Purcell and the like. Most Contents seem to have the Gamba, so adding the Bourdon and Concert Flute 4' can create an English Romantic voice if a work calls for it. The buzzing Harmonic Trumpet is called for in some works in both accompaniment for congregational singing, as well as some Medieval English organ works if the passages call for it. But the Harmonic Trumpet is probably what you could already acheive on a North German Baroque organ by drawing its Oboe, Trumpet and the Vox Humana together. So it may not be necessary.

So my choice is still Content after looking around:
http://www.sakralorgelwelt.de/conten...ele/index.html. The models at D5000 and above are, to me, basically the digitisation of the Marcussen and Son's organs of Denmark. But even so, I think I would only trust the Mondri Classics because they have 18 or so speakers in them. I think this is a major reason why the two in the series sound so much more realistic than the rest.

Regards
Felix

[LastCorpseStanding]

Perhaps if you're looking for something in the N German line, you need to convince your organ builder to sample the Wolff organ in Knox College at U of Toronto. Or better yet, try to get a chance to play it. I was lucky enough to get to play it not long after the installation as part of a masterclass for one of my courses. They even made us pump the bellows. And the fogelsang is a piece of work. I just couldn't get used to the flat pedal board.

[Clarion]

And since you said every Phoenix is custom-made, did you hand-pick those stops for the "four organs" in it, or they had some set menus for you to choose from? Also, is it a fixed policy that a customer must swallow all four organs in one in every purchase? Do they charge less if the customer only wants to buy one sample set of his or her choice?

I didn't hand pick any stops for my organ. I just went with one of their tried and proven designs which have proved to be popular. Some of them are listed here:

http://phoenixorgans.com/productsTabOrgans.html

I have no special skills that would allow me to design a better organ than Phoenix could design. Although I could have tweaked the specs to something I thought I might have liked better, there was lot's of time to do that after I got the organ, and could try out different stops. The organ contains over 200 voices available for swapping and assigning to the various stop tabs. I've done a bit of experimenting with mine, but it's pretty hard to improve upon the initial design.

At the other end of the range of customization would be this organ

http://phoenixorgans.com/installatio...nstallation=57

In this instance, many of voice samples for this home organ were sampled from the church where the customer is the organist.

There is no policy that a customer must swallow all four organs in one in every purchase; although I expect that the amont saved by eliminating a few sound cards would be insignificant. This installation has only two organ specs, Dutch and Baroque, plus the orchestral stuff"

http://phoenixorgans.com/installatio...nstallation=64

Doesn't sound like a very romantic setup.

Where the cost goes up, is providing the extra horsepower to accomodate additional stops. My 44 stop organ is probably the sweet spot, since that's about as many stops as a standard tab stop organ can physically accomodate without having to incorporate expensive changes inside and out.

[FelixLowe]

Hello there,

Because of the rarity of English Baroque organs today, I want to cite an audio here to illustrate what I mean by the English Baroque style. This is particularly for Clarion's comparision to how the Phoenix's Baroque section sounds. There are variations of tonal quality of various brands of pipe organs built in that period in the UK, but they generally sound characteriscally broad, enriching and slightly raucous when heard near to it. And their principal tones often have a slightly horn-like or stringy quality in general. Some of these voices would definitely have appeared at the organs of the 1851 Great Exhibition.

This one is an English Baroque at Norfolk, Hillington St. Mary the Virgin (built by Johannes Snetzler in 1756) playing Handel, G.F. Concerto Op.4 no.1, Hallelujah Chorus (duet) arr. Marsh:http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearc...c_index=N06361. The full organ with Sesquialtera gives brilliance with great clarity while the long compass provides depth and grandeur.

But this next one is a Romantic organ (built by T C Lewis in 1868) at St. John Suffolk, Wenham: http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearc...c_index=N01725 playing G.F. Handel (1685-1759) arr. Henry Smart (1813-1879) Chorus "For unto us a Child is born" (Messiah)

You can visit the British Organ Institute site repertoire list here: http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/hosa_info.shtml, and you can locate the works and find much more music to listen to. Stoplists are also available for reference.

Regards
Felix

[LastCorpseStanding]

Hello Clarion. In all honesty, you don't need special skills to design a better organ. You just need your own personal experience of what works, and what your own personal preferences are. That being said, I've mentioned before that Phoenix organs come closest in their stop lists to what I would choose for myself if I were designing from scratch. I took a look at the pt243 specs, and there are really only a couple things that I would change on that organ.

For instance, the Ped and Gt open diapasons would become principals, the Swell Cornopean would be a Trompette. I'd probably take the Hrm Flute from the Great and make it a 4', with a Rohrflute 8'. Change the Swell 4' flute to a Chimney flute. I prefer a Geigen Diapason on the Swell.

You should always take careful consideration of your choice of 32'. With really good subwoofers, you can get away with a ContraBourdon or the like, otherwise, you have to go with the Contrabasse. The principal sound is easier for the lesser speakers to handle. Other than those minor changes, that spec is a great two manual, and I've only suggested changes that are more personal preference. (You will find, if you look, that the Great and Swell are substantially similar to what I put together for St. George's Ajax.)

Your right about memory constraints on extra stops. You also have to realize that you can't always just exchange a stop with something else. Some take more memory than others.

Compare the standard specs of a PT243 to those of any Allen, Rodgers and Ahlborn or similar size, and you'll see a huge difference in the stop lists. The one requirement I have, that most organ builders seem to resist, is the 8' diapason of some sort on the Swell. Combining the flute and gamba to manufacture one is just not the same.

[FelixLowe]

Hi Organ Scholar,

I wonder if you could advise on the Quintedena 16. Many North German organs include it. But exactly what does it do? Is it to be used like the Bombarde 16 both for ensemble and solo playing? Would you advise including it or dropping it, since I find Principal 16 appearing more often in sheet music?

Thanks
Felix