Digital Organ Choice

[FelixLowe]

Clarion,

You said you had an organ from Classic Organ. How was their pricing for building either a digital or pipe organ by them, when compared to an out-of-the-box type of organs from, say, Phoenix? I recently read about the Classic Organ Works technology. Supposedly they would use their inventions to build their organs. They look quite impressive, talking about optical keyboards and ingenious computers. Are their works quite widely installed in Canada?

Felix

[FelixLowe]

I tested playing two-note pairs (the Quint and the Tierce) on the Principal 8' on the Allen organ module last night to find out about the result of whether I could re-create a Sesquialtera voice, of course by including the first harmonic, but was disappointed because all these years, I had not discovered that the Principal 8' on the Allen sounds like a flute more than anything else. It bears nothing like the incisive PR Sesquialtera (Principal Sesquialtera), which the sound module also has, and which is rather dark and reedy. That voice does sound like two medium-scale sets of principal pipes sounding together. The re-creation by using that Allen Principal had a weak result because I soon confirmed that the so called Principal 8' is a more like a Diapason, and a very weak one at that, too.

What I guess I will do is to stick all principal pipes for the future for both the Twelfth and the Sesquialtera on the Great, and provided the ensemble is rich enough, the other voices will cover for the non-unison pitch of the Twelft, I guess. When Audsley talked of the two ranks of Sesquialtera pipes as one voiced louder than the other (the fifth sounding louder), I am not sure whether he was subscribing to the view of organbuilding in the Anglo-American world, or in the European continent, or even unsurprisingly, that may have been just his own view of how things should be acheived.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Thanks for your info, LCS.

But if indeed a principal tone is adopted for the Twelfth on the Great, then is it true that it must be voiced to sound softer than the octave ranks, and perhaps leaner as well? This issue comes to mind when one thinks about using the Classic Organ Works hardware to borrow the Twelfth from an existing rank of Principal 4', for instance. If the normal volume of the Great Twelfth must be softer and of a slightly different character, (that is, its scale, they say, should be narrow), then a new rank of pipes must be used for the Twelfth. That is, it cannot be borrowed if it sounds too loud when the borrowing comes from an octave rank.

This is probably a true enough assumption. I wasn't aware that you were hoping to borrow. Do you have a Gamba or such on your Great? Depending on it's voicing, you might be able to make that work. Otherwise, you could try a something along the lines of a spitzflute if you have one, or maybe a viola or geigen pulled from the swell or choir.

Whilst on this topic regarding the Quinte, then how about in the Sesquialtera? Normally organ literature admits that both ranks of pipes are of open metal pipes, yielding pure organ tone. But Audsley says that not only so but that the Fifth harmonics must also be made to be slightly more prominent than the Third Harmonics. Do you know of any fact that these two ranks are supposedly to be made with different proportions of the tin and lead in them? Or must it be the case of what Audsley said in every case of organ building? And if the two ranks are indeed borrowed from the octave ranks, tonally then, they would become pretty much equal in volume. How feasible is this then, in terms of acheiving proper tonality?

I'm afraid that the Sesquialtera is outside of my knowlegde base. I've had very little experience using such a stop, and know even less about their proportions. You are right, however, in assuming that a borrowed stop for both ranks would not produce a desirable result. It's akin to trying to use a Bourdon, borrowed from itself, to create a resultant. This is almost always doomed to failure. Part of the problem is the volume, but, as you'll also find with a Twelfth or Sesqui, your tuning is also going to be out. A Sesqui using more than one rank of pipes will be tuned pure. You can't get that with borrowed stops.

LCS

[FelixLowe]

Thanks, LCS. I do prepare to have a Spitzflote 2' and Gamba 8', but both for non-full compass. I'll see what I can do with them. I guess I shall extend the latter to use it for Twelfth 2 2/3', since it is softer and yield a slightly stringy tone. As such, I guess it would sound more like a softly voiced principal than the Spitzflote. The problem is that the Gamba has got no chiff, and is obvious less articulate than the Spitzflote. Maybe I should consider the Spitzflote, too. But I guess, if we take the view that the Twelfth is merely used to "fill the harmonic gap" between the 4' and the 2' octave ranks, then perhaps the Gamba, would fit the bill quite well.

With regards to the Sesquialtera, I should seek further info on that. Definitely the South German Baroque Sesquialtera is quite loud, much more than the octave ranks themselves. However, the North German Sesqui is not so. It sounds quite slender and sometimes not even very prominent, and blends into the ensemble completely. I will see what I can do with the octave ranks -- to see if it will or will not work.

[FelixLowe]

It's the advent coming again. Although I don't go to church these days, I do miss some of the Christmas and organ music. Fortunately with the internet, I can choose to hear the favourites I want to hear. It's good to celebrate it year after year. But in my opinion, the second coming has already taken place for quite some time.

The following song is one of my favourites. It's funny that in this part of the world, where the English had ruled for a long time (156 years), the ethnic Asian people did not get to sing the proper Anglican version of Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus, which was married to the tune of Stuttgart in the English Hymnal. So if you attend any English-language Anglican service, you would be singing to such tune.

But the ethnic Chinese (the British National (Overseas) passport holders (these people could not be entitled to any right of abode in the UK (the part of the UK in Europe))) were more likely to sing to Hyfrydol because in their translated bilingual hymn books which have been popularly the bilingual "Hymns of Universal Praise", such tune has been adopted. This hymnbook is still being used in a wide range of Chinese-language Anglican, Methodist, Wesleyan and Congregationalist churches.

The following performance, playing the two verses with a prelude, interlude and a postlude, seems perfect. The organ sounds like an Allen. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WepNEvKQQH0

Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus

Text: Charles Wesley, 1707-1788
Music: Rowland H. Pritchard; harm. from The English Hymnal
Tune: HYFRYDOL, Meter: 87.87 D


1. Come, thou long expected Jesus, born to set thy people free; from our fears and sins release us, let us find our rest in thee. Israel's strength and consolation, hope of all the earth thou art; dear desire of every nation, joy of every longing heart.

2. Born thy people to deliver, born a child and yet a King, born to reign in us forever, now thy gracious kingdom bring. By thine own eternal spirit rule in all our hearts alone; by thine all sufficient merit, raise us to thy glorious throne.

[LastCorpseStanding]

The problem is that the Gamba has got no chiff, and is obvious less articulate than the Spitzflote. Maybe I should consider the Spitzflote, too. But I guess, if we take the view that the Twelfth is merely used to "fill the harmonic gap" between the 4' and the 2' octave ranks, then perhaps the softly voiced Gamba, would fit the bill quite well.

Whether or not you view the Twelfth as a soft or loud stop is somewhat of a personal preference decision. I like mine a bit louder than most other people do. I find it adds a real richness and colour to the tone, and I feel it needs to be able to play against the 16' reed, if so equipped. It's somewhat akin to my view on the Clarion 4' stop. I like mine a bit louder and brighter than you find on most organs. What I call an "impact" stop. Not alot of subtlety to it - I want no doubt in your mind as to when I've pulled that stop. You will find ample number of people who disagree with me on this one.

The other point I would make about the whole issue is this - Are you putting this in just to 'fill the gap'? That, in my opinion, is the wrong way to go about designing an organ. When I think of a stoplist, I need to be able to justify every single stop on that list. If I can't make a reasonable case for why it needs to be there, it doesn't make the cut. I trashed fifteen stops from the original plan on the St. George's organ because I couldn't make a justifiable case for them being there.

Do you know Bach's Art of the Fugue? I have learned some of those movements for organ. (I think it's a Walcha transcription.) For the first Fugue, I use 8', 4', 2' and Twelfth, all principal tone. The balance level of the Twelfth at St. George's was not far off what one would expect a Nazard to be in relation to its divisional flutes.

Again, all pretty much opinion, but I recommend against a 'fill the gap' stop. Force yourself to come up with a reasonable justification for its existence. It you can't, leave it be, and focus your effort on the Sesqui.

LCS

[FelixLowe]

The other point I would make about the whole issue is this - Are you putting this in just to 'fill the gap'? That, in my opinion, is the wrong way to go about designing an organ. When I think of a stoplist, I need to be able to justify every single stop on that list. If I can't make a reasonable case for why it needs to be there, it doesn't make the cut. I trashed fifteen stops from the original plan on the St. George's organ because I couldn't make a justifiable case for them being there.

The "fill the harmonic gap" argument, if I don't remember wrongly, was from Audsley. I have not seen a detailed explanation as to why a Twelfth was created on the Great in the first place. I have seen and old old document on German organbuilding, that the Great Twelfth was adopted in Bach's time as one of the stops seen on par in importance with the unison octave ranks of 8' 4' and 2'. But no information transpires from that document as to its loudness, or whether or not it was of exactly same construct and made of the same material as an octave 4' for instance. All I know is that it has been much talked of as an open metal pipe. But a flute can also be an open metal open. The tonal character has much to do with the material: the tin-verus-lead compositional ratio.

Yet I do think the Great Twelfth is closer to principal tone.

Honestly I don't really know why the Twelfth has to be there. Musically speaking, a fifth is also called the dominant. Maybe that's why they like it added -- for a metaphysical reason. There are many compositions from the old days, that in fact don't call for the Twelfth to be drawn -- just 8', 4', 2' and Mixture will do the job quite nicely, or sometimes, even the octave 2' is not required for registering certain compositions.

In the past, I often made do with a Quint Flute 2 2/3' -- the only thing I had. It was very weak and inconspicous even when drawn. I only knew a proper Twelfth had its place in Bach's time, and most modern organs have it.

But I completely understand what you were saying regarding the ability to create an audible effect when a stop is drawn and for it to withstand being drowned by other voices．This is what Audsley often refers to the "proper office of tonal appointment." It differs from organ to organ, and from acoustical environment to environment.

Anyway, using the Gamba for re-creating the Twelfth should fit the bill fine, if I am not building an extra rank, I guess.

Felix

[FelixLowe]

Thanks, LCS for your hint about using the Gamba for the Twelfth. For that matter, the Gamba will also be used as the Tierce in the Sesquialtera. I have tested it further on my Ahlborn module and by hearing the samples of Sesquialtera on the Organ Stop Encylopedia. Audsley is likely to be right regarding the composition of the two ranks in the Sesqui that one of which is louder than the other. I have also heard again the Principal 8' and a Gamba 8'. I would say they probably only differ in loudness, with the latter bearing little chiff. Tonally they are comprised of both the flute element and the string element. As a result, the octave rank should in future be used as the more assertive Twelfth in the Sesqui, to go with the quieter Seventeenth in it to be borrowed from the Gamba. That would fit the bill quite nicely.

But for the Great Twelfth stop, the Quint alone will come from the Gamba. And the Nasard 2 2/3' on the swell will be a stopped flute borrowed from the Gedackt.

Meanwhile, I have also adopted the Sedecima 1' due to its firmer principal tone. The churpy character of certain North German organ music calls for the Sifflote 1'. But I guess the Sedecima 1' can satisfy that music better than a flute.

So now, problems regarding tonality have largely been resolved.

Felix

[FelixLowe]

Obviously I may have discovered the reason for the presence of the Quint in Bach's time and before, after reviewing Barbara Owen's detailed monumental work titled "The Registration of Baroque Music." The book in fact examines registration styles not just during the Baroque era, but also from Renaissance through to the High Baroque era, elucidating registration styles and their purposes for organ works all over European across all periods.

Her Chapter 1 of the book outlines quite a number of stop lists of organs from Italy to France to Germany to the Netherlands. As I reexamine the stop lists I've discovered some common and uncommon aspects of these organs dating back to as early as 1497 to 1580. One common feature of these organs found in Trier andin Amsterdam and even the North German organ found in Benedictine Abbey, Weingarten is that they contained no Quint stops. The representative stoplist suggested by Arnolt Schlick also contained none of such voice. The Rauschpheife was a regal. Other than these, all the organs throughout Europe had some form of Quint of Quint Flute either at 2 2/3' or 1 1/3' pitch. So we can confirm that it was not a feature that came into being because of Bach, although he did say in an old document that he would consider the importance of a Quinte 2 2/3' (then some kind of principal tone stop) on par with the octave pipes.

Looking at the Renaissance organs, no doubt, some of these quint pitches existed as flutes or as principals. But their existence seemed to be very clearly explained by Owen in the second chapter: to immitate either the Cornet or the Gemshorn, depending on which stop was drawn together with the Quint pitch stop(s).

When she deals with England, France, Italy and Spain in her chapter 2, on p.21, the so called Jeu de nazard is the key to understanding the usage of such registration.

The jeu de nazard is frequently listed, and it plainly refers to a combination including a fifth-sounding mutation. In the 1537, contract for a church in Alencon one finds the notation "for the nasard".... Even before the Seventeenth was invented, the 2 2/3 tone was added to a Bourdon 8' to imitate the Cornet, and to a Principal 8' to imitate the Gemshorn.

Barbara Owen writes: "The jeu de nazard is frequently listed, and it plainly refers to a combination including a fifth-sounding mutation. In the 1537 contract for a church in Alencon one finds the notation "for the nasard" attached to the 8' Bourdon, 2' Flute, and 1 1/3' Flute, with a further notation that addition of the 1' Flute made the petit jeu de nasard [39, p.46]. A 1535 contract for an organ in Chalon-sur-Saone mentions the flute stops of 2 2/3' and 2' pitch that can "serve for a nasard," and later contracts of the period occasionally call for a two-rank Nazard stop [39, p.51-52]. This usage is confirmed in French and Spanish sources from the seventeenth century. French sources from round the middle of the next century cite a variety of combinations called "nazard," all of them based on the 8' bourdon, and one may assume that in the earlier period the nazard combinations also presumed an 8' or 4' foundation. These nazard combinations were ubiquitous by the middle of the sixteenth century. In the region north of Paris, contract for an organist. Walburga's Church of Bruges, date 1596, mentions that the "quint flute" (2 2/3') used with the 8' Hohlpijp constitutes the nazard, but when it is used with the 8' Principal it imitates the gemshorn...."

Apart from the Hebrews, signal musicians used as an integral part of a military organization appear next in the Roman Legion. These musicians, called aenatores, utilized a wide variety of trumpets, and signals were sounded on these instruments which the Romans inherited from the Etruscans. The Etruscans were superb metallurgists and smiths, and must have been skilled in the making of bronze or silver trumpets. A collection of forty-three signals were used in the Roman Army.


Above: a Roman Cornu

Instruments in the Roman Legion included trumpets such as the Tuba which was conical shaped and about 117 cm. long. It was a straight horn that had a slightly flaring bell with no bends. Another was the Buccina, which was in the shape of a "J" and was more like an animal's horn. The Cornu was a long curved instrument made of bronze, in the shape of a "G," which was more of a modern french horn shape and was played with the bell placed over the shoulder. The Lituus was also shaped like the Buccina, in the shape of a "J."

Obviously the Cornet, if you have studied Roman history, is an instrument used by the legions in the empire. However today, almost all organs have the Quints at 2 2/3' or 1 1/3', as it has become a musical style. The Sesquialtera, when used to play out the psalm melodies, sounds like a bleating sheep more than a kind of a horn. One cannot say an organ has sufficient tonal resources without it today. Honestly it has no connotation on the Roman legions at all. Neither do I believe the Romans' Cornet sounded like the Sesquialtera of today.

[LastCorpseStanding]

I wonder, Felix, if the origin of the quint may find at least a part of its origin in Gregorian chant, where singing at the fifth was common. It certainly carried through to the Renaissance, as we can see many final chords that are comprised of only unison and fifth elements, eliminating the third. Just a thought.

[Clarion]

Clarion, You said you had an organ from Classic Organ. How was their pricing for building either a digital or pipe organ by them, when compared to an out-of-the-box type of organs from, say, Phoenix? I recently read about the Classic Organ Works technology. Supposedly they would use their inventions to build their organs. They look quite impressive, talking about optical keyboards and ingenious computers. Are their works quite widely installed in Canada? Felix

Felix,

I bought my Classic Organ way back in 1984! At that time CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Co. used to have A real neat two hour daily classical music progam, and since the host was an organ fan, every Thursday was devoted to organ music. Then one day he announced that he was going to do something different; he was going to feature an electronic organ recorded at St. Mark's in Ottawa. After hearing that program performed on a Classic Organ, I figured: I really have to get one of those! It sounded really wonderful compared to my horrible Hammond H100!

So I got one! Classic was a new company then, and my instrument was Opus 53; pretty much the last of their analog organs.



When you refer to out-of-the-box type of organs from, say, Phoenix?; then you have not been listening!

1. Phoenix does not have any such thing as out-out-the-box type of organs!;

2. EACH and EVERY Phoenix is custom built to exacting customer specifications.

3. Each and every Phoenix installation is individually voiced to perfection accomplished organists who actually know what they are doing.

I think that the the primary differentiation between the two companies, is that:

1. Phoenix organs are designed and built primarily by organists, who also electronic engineers; whereas

2. Classic organs are built by electronic engineers who are not organists!

And the difference is readily evident.

I really don't consider Classic Organ as remotely significant as an organ builder. Their heyday has long passed, and they are now pretty much reduced to selling Hauptwerk parts and off-the-shelf-organs like Hammond-Suzuki and Ahlborn-Galanti who went bankrupt a year ago. 'Course they don't mentiion that on their website.

Although a couple years ago, when I attempted to buy a a new organ from them as a first-choice vendor; not realizing how far they has descend from the last time I dealt with them. They were totally hopeless to deal with. Unless I actually came into their showroom, they weren't prepared to give me the time of day. They never responded to my query as to how they deal with potential customers from Texas! So . . . all in all, a very inept and badly run organanization which has a predictably limited future.

When you ask: Are their works quite widely installed in Canada? Nope! Take a look at their non-existent list of recent installations; and then compare it to the North American installation list:

http://phoenixorgans.com/featuredInstallations.php

As for price comparisons: Phoenix prices for far superor custom organs, beat out the prices for off-the-shelf Classic Ahlborn-Galanti bankrupt stock by an enormously wide margin!

[Clarion]

But in my opinion, the second coming has already taken place for quite some time.

What a sad defeatist flawed observation! It that's all there is, then I intend to quit right now!

The following song is one of my favourites. It's funny that in this part of the world, where the English had ruled for a long time (156 years), the ethnic Asian people did not get to sing the proper Anglican version of Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus, which was married to the tune of Stuttgart in the English Hymnal. So if you attend any English-language Anglican service, you would be singing to such tune.

I certainly hope you don't figure that you are at all isolated in this regard! I feel the very same way here in Canada. With a library of North American hymnbooks going back well over a century, do you figure I could find so much as a single entry for my very favourite hymn?: Dear Lord and Father of Mankind?? (Repton/Parry). Nope! Not a chance! You can only imagine the kind of gymnasics required to acquire even a crappy version of this most wonderful hymn.

But the ethnic Chinese (the British National (Overseas) passport holders (these people could not be entitled to any right of abode in the UK (the part of the UK in Europe))) .

Not a concept I can understand. Here, in the area where I live, a bit north of Toronto; the affluent Township of Markham, must be at least 90% Hong-Kong-eeze!

The following performance, playing the two verses with a prelude, interlude and a postlude, seems perfect. The organ sounds like an Allen. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WepNEvKQQH0

Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus

Text: Charles Wesley, 1707-1788
Music: Rowland H. Pritchard; harm. from The English Hymnal
Tune: HYFRYDOL, Meter: 87.87 D

Sufferring from just a bit of overexposure on this one; my kidz were already doing improvisional pedal solos accompanied by harmony on the manuals by the time they reached 12 years of age. In retrospect, perhaps they may may have merely figured it to be an elementary right of passage.

[FelixLowe]

For Dear Lord the Father of Mankind, I actually prefer Repton to Rest. It is one of the most touching English hymn tunes. I picked this up quite late actually -- after the British had left in the post-1997 era -- from a wonderful CD on the King's College Choir. But I learnt Rest even later, after I had attended a Congregationalst church for a few years. We had never sung either of the two tunes during our school days.

The organ playing this edition of Repton again sounds like an Anglo-American instrument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA7M-7_K2DE.

[LastCorpseStanding]

Clarion, you make some interesting points about Classic. Having dealt with them for the organ at St. George's, here's what I can tell you. I did have the pleasure of dealing with organists while designing C750. Neither of them is employed by Classic anymore. The project ran very late. I'm not sure why, but I believe they were originally trying to set the organ up as a M&O installation, then later settled on Walker.

I haven't seen anything on their website to suggest that there have been any further Walker instruments, or any Marshall and Ogletree instruments. From what I can tell, you a right in that they sell HW, AG, and Johannus as organs. I seriously believe that their biggest business venture is as a control system provider to both digital and pipe organ builders. I think you may be right that there aren't alot of organists left in the organization, but I don't know that for sure.

I was listening to the CD of Christmas music I made on that organ a few years back. It still blows me away. One day, if I can ever afford it, I will own another Walker powered instrument.

[LastCorpseStanding]

With a library of North American hymnbooks going back well over a century, do you figure I could find so much as a single entry for my very favourite hymn?: Dear Lord and Father of Mankind?? (Repton/Parry). Nope! Not a chance! You can only imagine the kind of gymnasics required to acquire even a crappy version of this most wonderful hymn.

You haven't found this hymn? I'm truly shocked. I know of at least two hymn books that have it, the latest being the newest rendition of Common Praise used by the Anglican Church in Canada. There are two versions in there - one is very good, the other is somewhat watered down, probably to allow for four part harmony, which is just wrong for that hymn.

Hope this helps.