Digital Organ Choice

[Clarion]

I was listening to the CD of Christmas music I made on that organ a few years back. It still blows me away. One day, if I can ever afford it, I will own another Walker powered instrument.

I know absolutely nothing about Walker. During my recent encounter with Classic; considering the total absence of information provided to me by Classic, along with the same kind of thing provided on the Walker website (absolutely zilch!); after considering the plethora of information provided by both companies, I know absolutely nothing about Walker!

When it comes to sales and marketing, Classic is absolutely hopeless, not to mention their lagging technology. Over the years, I have approached Classic a number of times in an attempt to get my organ rebuilt and upgraded, but they were totally incapable of recommending any kind of game plan, nor come up with an estimated cost. And that is SOOOooo stupid!

In contrast, after contacing Phoenix by email; on their second email, they were able to come up with a total spec plan along with a very attractive $$$ estimate of the cost of gutting and totally rebuilding my organ with quality sound and components . . . something Classic had been incapable of doing for the last twenty years!

For sure, I would have had them go ahead with rebuilding my old Classic, were it not for their offer to build a wonderful new custom III/44! It was just simply the kind of offer that I couldn't possibly refuse!!

And after 1.5 years with this instrument, I never cease to be amazed at the wonderfully authentic voicing, tuning, etal it offers!

[Clarion]

You haven't found this hymn? I'm truly shocked. I know of at least two hymn books that have it, the latest being the newest rendition of Common Praise used by the Anglican Church in Canada. There are two versions in there - one is very good, the other is somewhat watered down, probably to allow for four part harmony, which is just wrong for that hymn.

For sure, in a dozen or so, mostly heritage kind of hymn books, none of them offered a Repton rendition. And then while at our local religious book store a few days ago, not one of their hymnbooks contained a Repton.

Not that I don't have a number of transcriptions, thanx to the internet; but as you have experienced, none of them quite capture the magnificent beauty of this piece. And maybe that's a good thing. While I have long ago abandoned the less-than-wonderful transcriptions; unlike any other piece I've ever known, Repton is so beautiful that tends to have become somewhat of an obsession for me, not only in terms of SATB, but for all of the wonderful endless improvisions it inspires. Ironically, I have never heard this composition beyond a couple years ago!

[FelixLowe]

Improvisation -- the wonders of improvisation and reharmonisation and the mesmerising final flourish, topped up witth hearty little postlude! That's what made me stay at that Congregationalist church for a few years. Seldom did I attend church longer than a few weeks before. This, depite the fact that I only discovered what congregationalism is all about many years later.

There, at the congregationalist church, I only started to learn to appreciate the beauty of certain Christian music by hearing the pipe organ there, which was a Kleuker. The beauty there was that there was a bunch of organ professors and music teachers taking their turns to play, to bring the best weekly feasts to the ears.

But talking of improvisation, I've noticed certain phenomena in there -- they didn't always improvise and certainly not on every hymn. They tended to improvise to a greater extent on songs of praise, sometimes even starting with a miniature prelude for familiar songs to avoid the boredom of having to hear it play from from start to finish. For hymns of a highly penitential character, they tended not to play them in a flowery manner, normally with the principals of 8' and 4', ending the last verse by drawing the Mixture without any reharmonisation. In other words, they were played straight from beginning to end.

To me music is everything for churches because they tend to have ineffable difficulties with prophecies in the Scripture, and in Hong Kong in particular, there is no such thing as patriotism; it is simply out of line. What was patriotism under the British? The English anthem heard played by our TV channels at 2am to mark the close of transmission for the day? And what is it? Communism and atheism? You've got to be kidding. So good music is all that there is for going to church -- almost! It's the best from amongst fellowship meetings, bible study groups and even the tea or coffee and potluck in the garden after church.

In the last year of my attending that church, the musicians there tended to go all out with Jazz style in accompanying hymn tunes, certainly having outgrown the passe organum style, while being no longer content with the simplicity of uninsatiating last verse arrangements.

Honestly the most grand Bach's works ever heard played when I attended one of those other grand Anglican cathedrals is nothing more than the BWV545 fugue. Here is the whole work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VdcxQTY3oE, one of the better known pieces.

[LastCorpseStanding]

I can only reiterate: I know absolutely nothing about Walker!

This is truly unfortunate. Yet, I fully understand your unwillingness to deal with Classic ever again. And your right, Walker's website is nothing but a home page with no links whatsoever that I can find.

I found the Walker stuff to be fantastic. If uploads here are fixed soon, I will try to remember to post a couple of tracks. Given that Classic doesn't seem to have sold any other Walker installations since St. George's, I really have to wonder if it's in the hands of the right people. I really have trouble understanding how someone wouldn't buy it after they've heard it. Which, coincidentally, is exactly where you are with Phoenix. And that's good, for both you and them. If you're happy with the product, they've done their job, and you've got endless hours of enjoyment ahead.

I really do miss the St. George's organ, but not the church itself. It's by far the best digital I've ever played, and surpasses some pipe organ I've played as well. Do you have recordings of your organ available? I'd be very interested in hearing some.

LCS

[FelixLowe]

What a sad defeatist flawed observation! It that's all there is, then I intend to quit right now!

Regarding my belief that the Lord has come, and the second coming has taken place quite some time ago already, I am surprised that you used the pessimistic wording "defeatist" to describe it when it was a total victory experience of the Lord. When you said you intended to quit, I am not so sure what exactly you meant.

It certainly vexes me to come up with a detailed religio-political explanation for you here in this space about music. However, what I can do is to attach a piece of music for you. And maybe you could get an answer from the words that you sing year in and year out. It is a Tocatta rendition of Joy to the World: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0pB0VrBJrQ. When I attended church in those years, this hymn was almost a must every Christmas Eve. So when the lyrics say "the Lord is come", you don't really see the reality that the Lord has come? Also hear this version playing three verses on a Reuter organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd2S9_EUWNM.

[Ntalikeris666]

Clarion, yes i agree, that all these about phoenix are good indeed!
Though, these facts stand only for the Canadian Phoenix. Phoenix in Europe is a different thing. Why?
First of all, there is one standard model for the Console , which is called "Baseline"
These consoles can take up to a couple of manuals and stops. I had asked last year from Phoenix UK, to send me some prices, and they sent me a PDF with 2 possible choices. The first one was a 29 stop 2 manual organ (Tabs or Knobs) , at 10.000 Pounds with tabs and at 13.000 with Knobs, and a 3 manual one with 39 stops which cost 13k with tabs and 17K with Knobs. Both included expression pedals and all the relevant parts. There is though the ability to order an organ according to your specifications but it is a lot less cost efficient, (takes 1 year to make) and costs lots more.
One other thing i consider negative, is that all of their models come with plastic keys, though you can order wooden ones, but still, plastic keys for a phoenix organ?

Approx. 6 to 7 months ago, i had sent a mail to the British Phonix to ask for some details, about a Hypothetical order. they answered me once, but then came the absolute silence from them. I kept trying to reach them, but nothing. I think that no one would buy an organ unless (first of all he sees it) but then even if one wants to get one just by ordering the parts, he has to be sure that what he wants is what he will get. So, in other words, the Service part is what Phoenix lacks in Europe.
Ohh, also there is another dealer in Hungary, but the prices there are a lot higher compared to the UK ones. I am not afraid of the voicing part, since i know that phoenix is really good at that (thought he voicing of the EU and US Phoenix is completely different).
Personally, i prefer an organ which feels actually more like a real organ (with Wooden keys, and knobs) instead of one that might have slightly better sound plastic keys and tabs.
To summarise, i dont have anything against the Canadian Phoenix, but when it comes to the EU, i believe that a better try should be done in order to keep the company market-effective. Its just that you should just not judge something according to your knowings only, since its not the same anywhere. If you see, the good consoles are only in the canadian site (E.G)

I believe that you particularely (Clarion) have completely underestimated Content Organs. Their technology has changed a lot, to what you might think they it is, and their sound has changed as well . Even if you take a phoenix and voice it badly it will sound like crap.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCQ_bU3xYdA&fmt=18
It looks like a real organ , but its actually a Content. Not bad at all isnt it?

Generally i would not advice you to trush online samples especially from sites, since the real thing is far from that. Live recordings are much better if you want to listen how a Digital organ really sounds like.
I dont disagree that it takes some time to voice the organ to your taste, but if you do it , things will be different.

Regards,
Nicholas

[FelixLowe]

So Nicholas, what organ have you brought in the end? Have you really visited Content in the Netherlands? And which model did you get in the end?

About your remarks on Phoenix, I personally would think that most other brands would also give you plastic rocking tabs and stops, unless you are ordering one with drawknobs or a custom-made one. Most practice models, even with three manuals, are made with plastic tabs only. But I guess if you have paid enough, they can make them with gold!

Actually, have you thought about purchasing a second-hand pipe organ with a small stop list for the home? The thing with digital electronically voiced organs is that unless they include a favourable warranty package, they are likely to become completely obsolete in eight to eleven years, pretty much like any electronic or computerised devices.

But amongst these computerised devices, no doubt Content is the forerunner in introducing the most refined German organ to the market. I have viewed the video you just attached, it sounds like a North German organ of the classical era, where their stop lists had been streamlined and standardised. That one in the video also sounds like a Ladegast also. I wonder if you have heard this brand before. The tonal office of appointment is much more refined than in the days of Bach. That tonal refinement has not reached the kind heard in the Romantic era, but is highly rationalised and slightly sentimental and richly polyphonic, without the presence of boomy and heavy bass tone.

In our school days, we were brought up with the Rodgers. I never heard my teacher play like that, and neither did the organ sound like that. Ah, I wonder where I have acquired the appreciation of fine German organs? I really have no idea. Maybe my previous life had been in Germany!

Never have I heard digital organ quality as refined as Content, anyway.

[Ntalikeris666]

So Nicholas, what organ have you brought in the end? Have you really visited Content in the Netherlands? And which model did you get in the end?

About your remarks on Phoenix, I personally would think that most other brands would also give you plastic rocking tabs and stops, unless you are ordering one with drawknobs or a custom-made one. Most practice models, even with three manuals, are made with plastic tabs only. But I guess if you have paid enough, they can make them with gold!

Actually, have you thought about purchasing a second-hand pipe organ with a small stop list for the home? The thing with digital electronically voiced organs is that unless they include a favourable warranty package, they are likely to become completely obsolete in eight to eleven years, pretty much like any electronic or computerised devices.

But amongst these computerised devices, no doubt Content is the forerunner in introducing the most refined German organ to the market. I have viewed the video you just attached, it sounds like a North German organ of the classical era, where their stop lists had been streamlined and standardised. That one in the video also sounds like a Ladegast also. I wonder if you have heard this brand before. The tonal office of appointment is much more refined than in the days of Bach. That tonal refinement has not reached the kind heard in the Romantic era, but is highly rationalised and slightly sentimental and richly polyphonic, without the presence of boomy and heavy bass tone.

In our school days, we were brought up with the Rodgers. I never heard my teacher play like that, and neither did the organ sound like that. Ah, I wonder where I have acquired the appreciation of fine German organs? I really have no idea. Maybe my previous life had been in Germany!

Never have I heard digital organ quality as refined as Content, anyway.

Yes, i went to Holland and i visited the factory. I would never buy an instrument without seeing it first.
Well, yes after all i bought a Content. The model i bought is a Mondri 5800 with 3 Wooden manuals and Wooden drawknobs (in a reasonably great price!!!) . I will upload some pictures next week, when i will have it here.

I had also considered buying a real, small, organ but its a lot more difficult. First of all i live in Greece, so dont expect to find any organs here. Other than that, a small organ needs maintenance, and there are not many people in Greece who do this job... Also, it needs to be assembled by an expert, which i personally dont know if he exists here... So after i considered all these, i decided not to do so... Of course, the real thing is diefferent, in any way, since you interact with a real instrument which is affected by anything (temprature, Humidity ETC), but for practice and experiance with the stops, a Digital organ is fine. Something else i personally cant stand, is playing with plastic keys. Its one of the first priorities for me to have a nice keyboard, since thats the mean with which you interact with the organ. Neither 400 stops nor a huge console, is worth more, when you have a plastic keyboard. The keyboard i have bought is one with Wooden core, and high quality plastic, in a really reasonable price (unlike for example UHT keyboards, which may be the top when it comes to quality, but one costs 2500Euros...).



Well, almost everything loses its value today. You buy a new car from the factory and once you have driven of the corner its value has a 20% loss...
Same thing is with PCs and Organs. But there is not point in waiting to see if anything better is gonna come out, since, technology is progressing as we are talking. So, since i could not wait for forever, i decided to go for a content, which i have seen and tested from upclose.


P.S: In the concert hall here there are 2 organs. A Big one, (A Klais IV/76 with 6080 Pipes) and a small one with 7 stops and 10 ranks. Thats where i usually take my lessons. The bad thing is that to get there i need at least 1 hour, so i dont really have the time to go there just to study, since i have many other duties.

Regards,
Nicholas

[Clarion]

Regarding my belief that the Lord has come, and the second coming has taken place quite some time ago already, I am surprised that you used the pessimistic wording "defeatist" to describe it when it was a total victory experience of the Lord. When you said you intended to quit, I am not so sure what exactly you meant.

I've always been under the impression that the second coming was to issue in utopia, and swords will be beaten into plow shares because there will be no more war!! If the second coming has already taken place, then I've been betting on the wrong horse!

[FelixLowe]

Yes, i went to Holland and i visited the factory. I would never buy an instrument without seeing it first.
Well, yes after all i bought a Content. The model i bought is a Mondri 5800 with 3 Wooden manuals and Wooden drawknobs (in a reasonably great price!!!) . I will upload some pictures next week, when i will have it here.

What is the maintenance and repair after sales they gave you with this instrument? Many firms boast 5+5 years included in the price you've paid? What percentage of the total cost of the organ do you expect to cough up, say, after 12 years or so, when the whole intrument becomes obsolete? If you request for a total replacement of the CPU and sound cards in there, how much extra do you think it would cost?

It's interesting that when I hear a Content, sometimes, it sounds like a Wagner, sometimes a Marcussen, and just yesterday a Ladegast.

So tell me something about the virtue of your Content organ, especially with regards to the stops. Which stops do you value most and why? Have you requested any custom-made stops that you wished to have?

Also regarding the UHT keyboards, do they really have a tracker touch?

[FelixLowe]

I've always been under the impression that the second coming was to issue in utopia, and swords will be beaten into plow shares because there will be no more war!! If the second coming has already taken place, then I've been betting on the wrong horse!

I don't know about horses -- I seldom place bets on horses. I prefer a lottery game called Mark Six in Hong Kong. You just mark out six numbers on a ticket of 49 numbers and pay five HK dollars and see the draw results at 9pm on TV.

Getting back on the real issue, it's true that the second coming has taken place. It's only the aftermaths that they are handling. This is with regards to your question about war and peace.

Joy to the World again on other organs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAaOJ61xauA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u1a_ov3j0w.

Otherwise, try and see if this one works: I Know My Redeemer Lives from Handel's Messiah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV1v64pm8rs.

[FelixLowe]

I had also considered buying a real, small, organ but its a lot more difficult. First of all i live in Greece, so dont expect to find any organs here. Other than that, a small organ needs maintenance, and there are not many people in Greece who do this job... Also, it needs to be assembled by an expert, which i personally dont know if he exists here... So after i considered all these, i decided not to do so... Of course, the real thing is diefferent, in any way, since you interact with a real instrument which is affected by anything (temprature, Humidity ETC), but for practice and experiance with the stops, a Digital organ is fine.

I know of a Filipino organ firm called Diego Cera that makes practice organs. Their products are quite appealing and reasonably priced, except that when you play on a small instrument like these, you may be not be able to practise stop selection, though you can practise playing the notes. I heard that their craftsmen are German/Austrian-trained. Their organs are of the South German school.



I quite appreciate the beauty of the Port Ludlow cabinet design with its Baroque flower and leafy moulding on the pipe facade and the craftsmanship is excellent. However, the stoplist is a small one. I am currently designing an organ. Maybe if the money is viable in future, I'll build my own-designed organ along similar style, with a swell box added, though. But the pipes have got to be North German Baroque. The Port Ludlow model is the one on the right hand side in the picture. There is a sound clip on Youtube about this model: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEOaqO60H0k. To me it sounds like the Hofficter series of organs, if I were to make a digital comparison.

[Ntalikeris666]

What is the maintenance and repair after sales they gave you with this instrument? Many firms boast 5+5 years included in the price you've paid? What percentage of the total cost of the organ do you expect to cough up, say, after 12 years or so, when the whole intrument becomes obsolete? If you request for a total replacement of the CPU and sound cards in there, how much extra do you think it would cost?

It's interesting that when I hear a Content, sometimes, it sounds like a Wagner, sometimes a Marcussen, and just yesterday a Ladegast.

So tell me something about the virtue of your Content organ, especially with regards to the stops. Which stops do you value most and why? Have you requested any custom-made stops that you wished to have?

Also regarding the UHT keyboards, do they really have a tracker touch?

The Organ has a 10 year maintenance included in the price.
Well, after 12 years, it wont be that important to me to sell it, since, i wont have any intentions on buying another Digital instrument. But, even if then, i still want something new, i will probably buy a Hauptwerk system, and make a custom stoplist according to the organ stops. I am not even sure if its possible to change the CPU and sound card of on digital organ. Though the cabinet itself, wont lose its value.

Hehe, i have not experience the full virtue of my organ yet, because its gonna be delivered to me in 3 days :P

Though i will tell you some characheristic stops, that i tested in the showroom in Holland. Generally speaking, some of the reeds tend to be french like, while some others German (EG. Krummhorn). Mixtures are German (i cannot specify whether they sound like a particular organ Builder's ones), and there is a characteristic Cymbal II on the Great together with a Mixture IV. On the swell there is a Mixture III which is amost like the IV one on the Great, without the higher rank. The Hobo on the swell sounds rather French, so does the Harmonic Flute on the Solo. (which is a floating division). The default settings of the En Chamade Trumpet i kind of loud, but i cannot specify its origins. The Pedal stops are mixed, so depending on the combination you make, the organ Charachter changes. As for the disposition, i have not changed anything, since i find it pretty complete.

As for the UHT Keyboards, yes they feel a lot like Tracker action, and they could be adjusted to your personal preferences as well, but again there is not mechanical coupling mechanism so you cant feel any more weight when you couple manuals, and they are incredibly expensive as well.



Regards
Nick.

[Ntalikeris666]

I know of a Filipino organ firm called Diego Cera that makes practice organs. Their products are quite appealing and reasonably priced, except that when you play on a small instrument like these, you may be not be able to practise stop selection, though you can practise playing the notes. I heard that their craftsmen are German/Austrian-trained. Their organs are of the South German school.



I quite appreciate the beauty of the Port Ludlow cabinet design with its Baroque flower and leafy moulding on the pipe facade and the craftsmanship is excellent. However, the stoplist is a small one. I am currently designing an organ. Maybe if the money is viable in future, I'll build my own-designed organ along similar style, with a swell box added, though. But the pipes have got to be North German Baroque. The Port Ludlow model is the one on the right hand side in the picture. There is a sound clip on Youtube about this model: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEOaqO60H0k. To me it sounds like the Hofficter series of organs, if I were to make a digital comparison.

Well, Philippines are a lot more far away than other EU countries near Greece, but i am sure there are other organs brands in the EU which can make smaller instruments.
Also to practice correctly, you need 2 manuals and a Pedalboard. With 1 manual its a lot more difficult to do so, since you wont be able to study Trio sonatas, Chorals, and Generally pieces which require a solo voice.

As i see in their site, a 2 manual 10 stop organ costs 51K $


Well, yes if you have enough time and money, and if you are experienced enough , you can make your own organ as well. You can even find Pipe Ranks on E-Bay.

[FelixLowe]

Well, yes if you have enough time and money, and if you are experienced enough , you can make your own organ as well. You can even find Pipe Ranks on E-Bay.

Hope you'll enjoy your organ soon.

For me, I have only just designed an organ of about 35 stops by using a very limited number of pipes. It would be done through intensive intra- and inter-rank borrowing within the organ. I plan on using midi control to drive the chest magnets because it would be impossibly complicated with tracker action. The pipes on eBay are of different makes and it is hard to guarantee they sound well together, as some are German, others are English or American. Plus, one would want to take control of the tin/lead ratio in the alloy. I have planned on using Spitzflote to replace the Gamba because the string element is so common that it is found in the principal tone itself already. The Gamba did not appear on German organs until the middle of J S Bach's career, I think. In Anglican Cathedrals, there has been an excessive use of it during Passion and "Good Friday" for those hymns, which I feel have little penitential value, if you study those words in an in-depth manner. But the string tone makes it out to heighten the dignified character of those hymns on that supposedly sorrowful occasion, thereby downplaying the due sentiments. The Kleuker organ, which I had heard for a few years, had no string-tone stop on it, I guess. For German organs, the stopped flute is indispensible, though. While British organs favour the use of Chimney flute 8', the German ones favour the Gedackt 8'. My organ is going to have no Rohrflote for economical reasons. The Gedackt always gives a more marked character, not only by emitting louder chiff, but it is a well-known exclusively organ-type flute tone not found in other instruments. The Spitzflote 2' is very Christmassy and cheerful. Spitzflote 4' is a little bit bell-like, also cheerful in character, too. So all the flutes I have included have their due office of tonal appointment. For example, for hymns with a penitential character, it is necessary to use the Principal 8', Gedackt 8' and Kleingedackt 4' for the manual, with the pedal of course, for the beginning verse. For a deeply devotional one petitioning God: Principal 8' and Octave 4', etc.