Which is your favourite Franck Choral?

[jhnbrbr]

Not to mention that Dupre uses the voix humaine instead on that piece.

But they are one and the same, surely?

[mathetes1963]

But they are one and the same, surely?

Voix humaine and voix celeste? Not at all. The VH is reed stop bearing a *fancied* resemblance to the human voice; the VC is actually two string ranks tuned wide to create an undulating or "celestial" effect.

So, by changing Franck's registrations, Dupre effectively changes the character of the music.

EDIT:
Know what? I am a LOUSY multi-tasker. I should have said Dupre used the voix celeste instead of the voix humaine...ugh, dain bramage...

[jhnbrbr]

Phew, Mathetes, I thought I was the one going mad till I realised you'd edited the original post! Anyway, fully understand now, and it does seem strange. Perhaps the Voix Humaine was out of tune on that day?

Well, #2 is romping ahead in this poll, but on YT #3 seems the most popular. I really like this version by Michael Murray at St Sernin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehigHG0K1y4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHS8ttgSH8

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a recording of #2 of similar quality.

[dll927]

Long ago I had a recording (LP) of Dupre playing the Grande Piece Symphonique on that sacrosanct organ. At the part where the slow movement is repeated in the key of C (instead of B!!!), he obviously used the celeste, and it was beautiful, even on such an old, even by then (1950's, I'm sure), instrument. Maybe he was one of these anti-tremolo types and preferred that to the vox. However, it may also be true that 'tremolo' on that organ leaves a bit to be desired. Check with Roth!!

[acc]

Long ago I had a recording (LP) of Dupre playing the Grande Piece Symphonique on that sacrosanct organ. At the part where the slow movement is repeated in the key of C (instead of B!!!), he obviously used the celeste, and it was beautiful, even on such an old, even by then (1950's, I'm sure), instrument. Maybe he was one of these anti-tremolo types and preferred that to the vox.

Maybe, but in the “Grande Pièce Symphonique”, Franck did indicate the Voix céleste in the slow mouvement's repetition (so in this case, there is no reason to wonder why Dupré failed to use the Voix humaine).

[mathetes1963]

Fact is, that Dupre made his own performing edition of Franck's works, which, for better or worse, varies from Franck's specified registrations in many places. Michael Murray uses the Dupre edition in his recordings, BTW.

@dll927: Perhaps due to a pitch problem on the master tapes? Jest a thawt...

[acc]

Fact is, that Dupre made his own performing edition of Franck's works, which, for better or worse, varies from Franck's specified registrations in many places. Michael Murray uses the Dupre edition in his recordings, BTW.

That's why I said "in this case".

[jhnbrbr]

I would also be interested to know how you think the title "Choral" or "Hymn" relates to the music. Does it refer to each piece as a whole in a general sort of way? Or are we intended to identify one particular theme as the "chorale theme", and if so which? In #1 it would have to be the vox humana tune, even though the opening theme also sounds quite "choralish". (And vox humana obviously suggests singing) In #3 it would be the second theme which has a sort of plainchant feel to it. But what about #2? The vox humana tune is hauntingly beautiful but it seems more like a coda than a complete hymn, and it doesn't play a prominent role in the piece. So maybe it's that other theme which comes immediately after the passacaglia section? I really can't decide.

[acc]

Franck himself supposedly said:

Le vrai choral, ce n'est pas le choral ; il se fait au cours du morceau.

(i.e. “The true chorale is not the chorale, but comes to be during the piece.”) A somewhat cryptic remark, but I think you're right on all three counts: it's the vox section in the E major, the section following the initial passacaglia in the B minor, and the second theme in the A minor.

[dll927]

Obviously Franck's compositions were original, and not based on hymn tunes, a la Bach. As to where the 'chorales' are, what would you do with maybe the most famous example, Elgar's "Enigma Variations"?

Somehow, in No. 2, I've always considered the opening pedal theme to be the chorale. Why else would it be so prominent in the piece? In No. 1, I agree it's the Vox Humana theme, and in No. 3, the soft part that comes in after the beginning preoration. What is interesting is his treatment of those themes as the music progresses, in each case eventually winding up as a full-organ treatment at the end.

In No. 2, Marie-Claire Alain calls that Vox Humana part a "seraphic theme", which, of course, closes the piece. But it's always interesting how various performers analyze a piece of music. Who knows how close they are to out-guessing the composer? And, did the composers themselves spend so much time analyzing? That's mostly for people getting Ph.D.'s.

[acc]

I don't think that analysing a work is necessarily about getting a Ph.D. in musicology. It is only fair for any performer to analyse the work he wishes to perform. Not necessarily to guess how the composer thought of it — but to know how the performer himself does.

When you're about to read a text in public, surely you spend some time thinking about the meaning and the structure of the text (even if you're not trying to “read between the lines”). It can only help to carry that meaning over to the audience more compellingly. Why should a musical performer do otherwise?

[Corno Dolce]

Hi acc,

Two corni(boys)and two cornetti(girls)...

Couldn't agree more - I wanna hear the musical line/interpretation by the performer - not their struggle with technique...

Cheers,

CD

[jhnbrbr]

We haven't yet mentioned the faint whiff of controversy surrounding the Chorals, over the question of the dedications. In my copy, these are:

1: A Monsieur Eugene Gigout
2: A Monsieur Auguste Durande
3: A mon eleve Augusta Holmes

Being a bit of an old romantic, I have always been rather drawn to the idea that Franck was secretly in love with Augusta Holmes, and that she was the "muse" who inspired the wonderful creativity of his latter years. Quite appropriate, then, that the debt should be ackowledged in his final tour de force for organ. However, Vincent D'Indy's biography of Franck contains the following footnote:

Franck dedicated these three chorales to MM. Al.Guilmant, Th.Dubois, and E.Gigout. It is by mistake that other names appear on the published edition.

And it may not even have been an innocent mistake. One version of events (which I only heard by word of mouth) is that after Cesar's death, Madame Franck entrusted Durande and Holmes with the task of getting the Chorals published, and they took advantage of the situation to write in their own names!

It's probably impossible to be sure of the truth, but if anyone has any further information I would love to hear it ....

"Franck is enamoured of gentleness and consolation, and his music rolls into the soul in long waves, as on the slack of a moonlit tide. It is tenderness itself; divine tenderness borrowing the humble smile of humanity" Camille Mauclair

[Corno Dolce]

I used to have Rollin Smith's writings about Franck's organ music in which he writes (I think) about the 'dedicatees'. Methinks the question has been laid to rest in re to names being "introduced" into subsequent copies of manuscript. Yes, Franck probably had a liking for Augusta but I doubt that he was unfaithful to his wife.

[acc]

We haven't yet mentioned the faint whiff of controversy surrounding the Chorals, over the question of the dedications.
[...]
It's probably impossible to be sure of the truth, but if anyone has any further information I would love to hear it ....

In his Franck monography, Joël-Marie Fauquet also states the names of the three supposedly initial dedicatees (Gigout, Guilmant, Dubois), but without citing any sources, pointing out that one of the only traces of that information is by Pierre de Bréville (a Franck student) about a possible dedication of the third Chorale to Dubois.

But I agree that we will probably never know the truth. After Franck's death, two rival “factions” emerged, each claiming to be the sole representative of Franck's heritage. One was headed by Vincent d'Indy (and included Bréville), the other by Augusta Holmès (and was supported by Franck's son Georges).

It could be true that Gigout, Guilmant, and Dubois were indeed supposed to be the dedicatees, and that Augusta Holmès used Georges Franck's support to have the dedications changed.

It could equally be true that Franck genuinely intended to dedicate the Chorales to Gigout, Durand, and Holmès, and that the alleged original dedications are only rumors spread by the d'Indy faction because they were upset about Holmès being among the dedicatees.