GrandOrgue 0.2 Beta released for testing...

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Panos,
Yes, please add your request for a 64-bit version of Jack for Windows (there is already one for Linux 64-bit and OS-X 64-bit). I've asked, and one other person has asked... but so far none of the main developers has been interested... If other readers of this forum could do the same that would also help
GrahamG

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi again Graham.
Since our last discuss I went to Jack site(I'm a member for 3 months now) and I saw what you just said.
I'm waiting confirmation from their administrator to e-mail them with the specific request from the members mail list.
I also hope that other people from this ship gonna ask them to.
There is also one thing with Jack.
The first download I took from them had the extension .5
My system couldn't read it and no man in the web(then) knew anything about it. Do you know something.

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Panos,
When I have downloaded files from http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jackdmp.html they have always been either .tar.bz2 or .tgz compressed files. If your download had the extension .5 then perhaps your download manager didn't show all the extension (as the latest version is jack-1.9.5.tgz). I use 7zip (http://www.7-zip.org/) to decrompress the files...
GrahamG

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Thanks.I dowloaded then with Free download manager,It worked for one or two times, after that it went dead, I mean it started to appear and imidiatly dissappeared! So I get rid of him and I "hired" the DAP one. This one works fine...so far.I've no problems with WINRAR,, but I'll go for your direction too .
PanosG

P.S. I also dowloaded the new 1_9_5. Tested(add reverb to G.O.v2) and ..works fine, better than _4 and with no....repears.

 

[Dorsetmike]

I've spent most of the day slaving over a hot midi file and reading up on Midi things, it would appear that the Midi Programme change command is a one shot thing, it is usually used to set the instrument right at the start of the file, if at some point within the file you add another ptogramme change ity csncels the previous one so ity's no use for changing stops unless you only want one stop at a time!! which reduces us to control mode commands of which the only useable ones look to be the "undefined on/off" of which there are 28, although 4 more on/off items could probably be used.

So with 32 possible commands per channel (assuming each manual/pedal uses a channel) it should be possible to have up to 32 stops controlled for each division.
As only one divisional would be selected at a time then Programme change can be used.

Not being an organist I'm not too sure of when generals would be used, can more than one general be selected at the same time or does selecting one cancel any others? If only one at a time then a programme change would suffice.

I will now go away and play with midi files to see what does work and what doesn't

 

[el_supremo]

There can be 128 MIDI Program Change commands per channel, so if you assign a channel per division the PC commands can control up to 128 stops on each division.
The program receiving those commands should interpret them as "toggle" commands so that if a stop is on, its corresponding PC command will turn it off and vice versa. Since there are unlikely to be 128 stops in a division you can use some of the spare PC commands to do things like a general cancel.

Pete

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Mike ! I'm back in Athens.

I use extensively the programm change commands all my playin' life, so Hauptwerk and of course GrandOrgue won't be excluded from my treatment.

The electronic organ that I use to control them (as you may know by now) is the Yamaha EL900 (1998 model). This one was the definitive series model and the last of a long generation of organs. Has 16 registration buttons located between the two manuals whitch send also MIDI program change command on ch16 only for the entire organ and for programs 1~16(as are the registrations) - Up Manual on ch1 or ch4, lower man on ch2 or ch5, pedalboard on ch3, expression ped on ch16-control no11, footped on ch16-control no4, no sustain send(no64), but the two switches on expr ped send only system exclusive code..
I tell you all this to know the system cause I'm gonna ask you something later.

So, with the reg buttons & 2 footpedals I can have full control of small to medium VPOs and some great VPOs with the help of reg set on softwere.
Example : small chappel organ with 8 stops and some couplers ~ assign reg buttons 1 to 8 one each for the 8 stops and 4 more for swell to Grt, Grt to ped, swell to ped, swell tremulant ~ assign exp ped (no11) to swell ped and the control of the VPorgan is complete. Oranists wanna do this for on the spot control of their instrument and instant access of every stop for mixing~unmixing.
For medium VPOs I follow the same attitude but with full 16 reg complete.
On biger organs I got problem of assign lets say 28 stops plus couplers and tremulants to just 16 buttons, so I make use of the registration sets of the VPO (only16 of them ~ only 16 combinations of stops/couplers memorized) and reassign the exp ped11 to cressendos ped and the footped4 to swellped. So far so good, I'm O.K. with it.

With all this work I can change colours of my sound depending on the organ piece I'm workin'on, is not much but this that I can afford for now and I make the best of what I have in hand.

So, to your MIDI commands.
Hauptwerk responds in all MIDI thing I'm sending, sometimes gives me alternatives to solve a problematic situation and at the end it works as I want it to work.

GrandOrgue on the other hand(both versions v.1&v.2, my organ also) do not.
a. Program change.
v.1 opens his reg set no1 at my command reg(prog ch no) no12 and so on 'till set no 5 (pr change 16) and only on the old St.-Mockers organ(witch has 60 reg sets!). The other organs and harpsichords do not respond to any progr ch command from EL900.
v.2 do not respond at all...
Both respond on their program numbers(1~100) on the right of their screen, also to the system exclusive sends from my switch pedals(!) - they change their programs but no stop/coupler/reg sets

b. Continuous controls.
Both respond to swell ped commands but I had to search for witch endorsment of the 5 is the appropriate ... usualy No3

My question : why this happens to GrandOrgue, and why in Hauptwerk don't?

I didn't try to do all this with my synths&piano mother 'cause I want o play VPOs with my EL900 organ, so it doesn't matter if they can command or Grand Orgue can not respond to them.

To your question, changing reg set changes all of the organ settings. There are exeptions however, but the SET depends on the organists favor/needs/fantasia, also the row can be set according to one's program of performance, anyway it's a helping hand for quik change of sound, expression ect.
Enough for now
see what you can find

cheers
Panos

 

[Dorsetmike]

Pete, I'm not sure if GrandOrgue treats Cx commands as toggles, if it does than as you say, no problem, except adding the commands to a midi file. Finalé does not seem to have the option to do that except to change instruments.

I will have to do some experimenting tomorrow.

Panos, have you checked the settings in GrandOrgue to equal the values from your EL900? Different sample sets have some of the stops midi channel and data numbers different to others I was wondering why I was seeing different stops selected from what I thought I should have until I checked!

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Thanks Mike, I'll double check again, as you say.
But I've got MIDI MEDIC along with Organ Manager from Classic Organ Works site and Medic shows EL900 working on the spot - exactly as Yamaha says in the manual.
Also GrandeOrgue has this usefull feature of "waiting to listen for data" and it recognizes exactly the midi data I send from EL900, but not willing to obey...in program change.

I'll see tomorow.
Panos

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Panos, Mike, Pete, and all...
From my limited understanding of the GrandOrgue/MyOrgan code, the Divisionals are always controlled via Cx Program Change midi commands recieved on the same channel as the manual that they control (i.e. if the Great is configured to MIDI channel 1, then the Great Pistons only respond to Cx messages from MIDI channel 1). General Pistons should respond on the same channel as the Stop Changes, but in GrandOrgue v02 there seems to be a bug that sets all Generals to a null(0) channel. Has anyone got the Generals responding to any MIDI commands?

What is the behavior that would be most usefull in regard to Divisionals, Generals, and how they are controlled? Should we separate the Divisional configuration from the manuals and allow other command types (i.e. not just Cx Program Change)?

Thanks for all the testing and experimentation guys!
GrahamG

 

[Dorsetmike]

Divisionals I see no prblem in using Cx commands on the same channel as the manual/pedal, later today I hope to be able to test if Cx are treated as toggles.

As for stop changes, as long as there are not more than 32 stops per manual/pedal then Bx undefined on/off commands on the relevant channel should be OK

Generals could be controlled from Cx Programme change, either on one of the channels or split between all channels (example 1-10 on channel 1, 11-20 on ch2 21-31 on ch3)

If CX are treated as toggles then couplers could respond to CX on the relevant channel otherwise from Bx undefined on/off.

This is another area I hope to be able to test today or tomorrow. This does depend on my being able to edit the necessary commands into the midi files.

 

[Dorsetmike]

Preliminary report

Stop changes as they are in GO now, must all be on the same channel, so can not use CX or BX on the individual manual/pedal channels.

I have found a good application for editing midi files, called Midiocre

http://www.hammersoftware.net/midiocre.html

The editing tool is well hidden, when you open the "Events" screen you have a readable list of all the events, you need to right click on an event at the position you want to add a command or other event, you then get a neat edit window where you can select the type of event and type in any required data.

Divisionals appear to be fixed on the manual/pedal channel and Cx

What, if any, use is intended for memory settings, do they have any relation to divisionals and/or generals? Cos I recall clicking "Memory set" when allocating stops to divisionals currently set as "none " in the event column.

Back to work! Renumber all the stops - again!!!!!!

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Program change in GrandeOrgue

Hi again Graham ! and Mike and Pete

I'd like to see GrandOrgue become the best VPO program there is and to be free for all and more organ sets to be available for "her".

One thing very important for "her" must be the way "she" responds on players commands. It must be very flexible, instant (or anyway to get where the player wants with carefull programing of parameters before start playin') and of course free of bugs. Sadly I have no knowledge on how to fix a bug but as a player I know very well what to do to get an electronic device to sound musical.

There's a "change midi channel" feature in GrandeOrgue (in Midi Messages folder), that i like and saves a lot problems, when you click, lets say the pedalboard and by befault is on ch1 and the player (due to his midi controller limitations) wants that to be on ch3 (as my EL900 wants).
By clickin' Properties we can change (with Cx p.ch.) the channel, as we can order "her" what continuous control we need (with endorsment no.).

I say that because the usual midi controller of a program like GrandOrgue are older electronic organs (having 2manuals/pedals/expression ped) with fixed send commands.

There is another way of course, to use separate modern midi cotroller keyboards, witch do allmost everything and get an external pedalboard (all of them great but very expecive) and arrange things as we like.
I've got one such controller, the cme-Ukey v.2. Has 49 keyboard, usb plug and play and midi and a lot other things and is extemely usefull when I'm on holydays (very easy to transport it) and want to play/compose ect : Just got : cme/computer/headphones and of you go !

In my recent Easter holydays I did just that. GrandOrgue responds exelent in every playing style, with rich enjoyable sound, but limits my options of changing combinations or stops at any given time during playing.

This thing is very important as there are works that demand change of stops or registration of them, after, lets say, the praeludium goin' to Grave and then to fugue. The onle way I can do this (so far) with GrandOrgue is from my pc screen with the pointer clickin' the appropriate stop/combination and get a large gap betwen music parts.

There's another way, luckily, that works :

Using the program feature of "her" - right up next to polyphony small window and goes up to 100(!) programs- I managed to memorize combinations and change them OK.

First I selected the program number (no1 by default) then the combination of stops I wanted (8'/4'/2'), then clicked the SET, then the program number inside his small window and then clicked on the body of main window and then closed the SET. By changing program number in GrandOrgue from no.1 to no.2 the stops I selected went off. Back to prog no.1 they came back ON!

So this is how "she' works for me, 'till now, but the midi channel on witch these programs change is different from the channel keyboard transmits .
In synthesizers this is much easier : Transmit keyboard Ch2 ~ program change Ch2 ~ continuous/switch controllers Ch2... (by the way Hautwerk don't do that, but works perfect with my EL900...).

I hope I helped and waitin' to hear from you
Panos

 

[Dorsetmike]

Update time, using Midiocre, and having renumbered all the stops data I now have GO playing happily from a Midi file, I can edit the midi file to add stop changes, and get them in the right place too! Couplers also working from teh Midi file.

I'm using note on/off commands on a separate channel. A minor problem is that if I try and change a stop using the mouse while a piece is playing, all the other stops release, so if I want to try different registrations while playing I need to start the piece playing then select all the stops on screen.

To help getting the right data entered I've printed out a list of all the stops on my very Extended SM and against each stop I have the midi note number in decimal and hexadecimal, the note, and it's column and row on screen..



Next session will be to try and sort Divisionals and Generals.

 

[Dorsetmike]

Before I get too stuck into divisionals and generals, could the experienced performers advise, is it normal practice to either set Divs and Gens for a particular work, or a particular concert/service or do you have a "standard" collection of settings that you can use to cover most of your performances? (Presumably the latter would depend on if the settings are permanent, or do they require setting each time you switch on, also dependant on you being the main/only user of the organ.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Mike, good results !
But these are very usefull when play Midi files., or not? What about performing with an instrument ?

I just downloaded MIDI-OX (Midi-ox.com). They say it can do anything even system exclusive messages to midi controler number ...Do you know anything about this ...ox?

To your question.
I'm not an expert, but I'll share with you and other members who are interested, my experience and my tricks to go for what I want.

As I told you before, generals are very helpfull when performing.
If I SET all my 16 registrations and assign them to the 16 generals, I can play the most 16 "songs" -one "song" to one general - or so many songs as many generals I need for one of them - 4gen to one, two gen for the next ect -
If I have to do , lets say 64 songs, I have to arrange another set of 16 generals and so on ~ 16 x 4 = 64 general combinations.

Hauptwerk allows me to store, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, 8 sets of gen/div combinations for sample set , so this is enough for me, considering that I have a lot of different sampled organs/harpsichords

With GrandOrgue, as I postet above, I can have 100 programs ~ 100 combinations of all organ sets I got, and use them as I can.

The same applies to divisional combinations, just my EL900 can't go that far. Other el.organs and especialy organ consoles dedicated for use with Hauptwerk, see them at pcorgan.com, can do anything (but expencive).

I usualy do a trick to have both divisional and general combinations and sometimes coupler/tremulant control from my contoller organ. It depends how big is the organ in sample set : if it has two man/ped and 5 general comb, 3 divisional on each man and 2 for the pedalboard that means for me 13 registration buttons and I 'm left with more 3 to assign couplers/tremulant, or some reed stops if I need to open/close them instantly in a "song".

That's for now, I'll try to see what Midi-ox can do...
Panos

 

[Dorsetmike]

Panos, Midi ox is good for routeing midi signals and also gives a read out of what is coming in via a midi cable, but that's as far as it goes. Support on their forum is almost nonexistent, I posted a query there and after waiting 2 weeks with no reply I got fed up and removed it from my list of places to visit. Some people might say "but it's a free product", so what, support is support, if you offer a support forum, I would expect periodic checks to see if there are outstanding queries, and I think the period shoud be not more than every couple of days; it looks as though the Wavosaur forum is similar, nearly a week with no response.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Ok Mike, I see and I subscribe with you : support is support, it must allways be.
I have all that with midi-medic and ClassicOrganWorks respond OK. So...I'll probably fire...ox
Thanks and cheers
Panos

 

[Dorsetmike]

Panos, don't get me wrong on Midi ox, it is good at what it does and can be very useful tracing midi signals.

I've just tested Divisionals and they do work on Progarmme change commands on the channel for the key/pedal they are associated with. If you are not likely to use more than 8 combinations of stops for a work then they would probably work better than the stop changes using note on/off on a separate channel

I can't figure a way to select generals from a midi file as yet, cos I can't access the channel select to change it from zero, it's greyed out, or does that mean it will operate on a relevant Cx from any channel?

A divisional will override a general for it's relevant key/pedal board, and can in turn be overidden by a general.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi again Mike.
I did some good things with OX and I'll keep it anyway....It's Ok.

Midi files are sometimes a pain in ...... I can't for example persuade Sibelius to recognize the acoustic piano and present it with two staves from a Midi file I made (with ES6 synth/Seq). It recognize though the classic el.piano instead.
So I had to redo my Midifile by assigning el.piano 1 (GM) to the part of acoustic piano and everything went ok...!!
With a synth/Sequencer (workstation) you can do what you just said about changing divisionals or generals during song playback with just an order in edit mode : PC command and in a position in time different from a position where a note from an instrument plays, otherwise you get cough - break of rythm.
So if in 4/4 I usualy put the PC command after the last 16th note played (if 480 is the next first beat of the meter I put the PC command in 479... and everythig rolls ok).

There's no problem for me to get to overrides, div/gen, and I believe there is no need for.
Example :
a. great Or. 8'/4'/2 2/3' /2' / 1 3/5' , swell 8'/4'/2', ped 16'/8' greatO coupler on, swell to great on. All this ~ SET to general 1.
b. Start play praeludium ~ ~ ~ ~ somewere in the midle the work asks for lowering volume, especialy on pedals. I have to do 16'/8' only. Here comes our choice :
c. PC command to gen SET no2(prepared) with the pedals to 16'/8',
or PC command coupler to greatOr OFF,
or PC command to divisional (Pedals) SET to no 1 (16'/8').
By doing so there's no override to GreatO and swell, they continue to play in the combinations made in gen SET no1.

Anyway this is the way I do it and this only works with Hauptwerk, since I can not send program change to generals/divisionals or stops to GrandeOrgue, only with the little program window on the right as I said before, but this is not the same, be cause lets say you play with program no.12 and you wanna jump to 27, how to do it when you play if there is n't a button to ?
My EL900 has a second switch ped attached to expression on the right and can be programmed(from EL900) to jump to whatever programm number I want, but this way the whole thing becomes very tricky and mind exhausting and extracts the player from practice and joy of playing. So, it would be better if Grande Orgue could do what hauptwerk do with MIDI and beyond.

Still workin'on
Panos