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GrandOrgue 0.2 Beta released for testing...

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Panos,
You should be able to send Program Change messages to GrandOrgue to change the Stops and the Divisionals. What channel can you send your Program Change messages on?
GrahamG
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Graham !
I posted here, a bit up before, with full details to Mike, please read it (on April the 11th)
EL900 sends program change on ch16 ONLY and control change (expression ped No.11/ footcontroller No.4) and two ped switches with system exclussive code (I have the code I post it If you want) on the same(16) channel with the 16 registration buttons.
But please read my posts here, you 'll get all I do with.
Thanks and waitin' for your advice
Panos
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Attached my rendering of William Boyce's 5th Voluntary, stops controlled ny note on/off on a 4th channel. Think the Rit at the end could do with commencing a measure later. Using the SMExt set with some additional stops from the Enigma set.

Also attached a PDF of a piece I may have posted before, A Rameau Gavotte and variations for harpsichord, arranged for organ, I've got a couple of harmonies I'm not happy with in the pedal staff, if anybody can spot them and suggest improvements it would be much appreciated.

I 'm using that to test using divisionals only, not individual stop changes, seems to be working OK, I've got a divisional left unused on each key/pedal board.

Gone midnight here now so I'm off to bed!
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Panos,

I found your previous post with the details :)
"Has 16 registration buttons located between the two manuals whitch send also MIDI program change command on ch16 only for the entire organ and for programs 1~16(as are the registrations) - Up Manual on ch1 or ch4, lower man on ch2 or ch5, pedalboard on ch3, expression ped on ch16-control no11, footped on ch16-control no4,"

So, all 16 pistons (my word for registrations) only communicate on channel 16. As there seems to be a bug with the Generals in build GrandOrgue 0.2 the only option is to use MIDI-OX to map the Program Change messages from channel 16 to the channels that you are using for the manuals. Do you have MIDI-Yoke installed? If not, please go to the MIDI-OX site and download MIDI-Yoke (it will be conifigured to provide the virtual MIDI port that will have the Mapped Program Change messages on it).

I will add an enhancement request for GrandOrgue to allow Divisionals and Generals to have their own MIDI Channel configuration in the future.

Let me know when you have MIDI-Yoke, and I will then post the steps for using MIDI-OX to map the Program Change messages.

GrahamG
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Graham !
As you already know I ve got Midi-ox, it installed ok in my x64 windows7 system.
Newest version of Midi-yoke do not.(Installer interrupted e.c.t.).

So I went (google search ~ MidiYoke windows7x64) to diferent forums and I found interesting things from people with the same problem.

I have to close my UAC, then rebout my pc and installs ok. So they say it works.
My problem is I can't find how to close it. Its all in Greek (!!!! he he..there's allways a translation issue here from English to Greek terminology) and I'm gonna ask a friend who's a very experienced programmer.
I have to do this allright for another reason : I can't install the Quantum Leap Orchestra I 've got (ERROR 1721 - I've got help from Java on that) 'cause the cure seems to be the same ~ shut down UAC...

Wait until I'm done...
Panos
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Mike !
Good stuff. Dificult work you acomplished !!
I 'll tell you what I think.

1st I liked the registrations and the changes you did where needed.
2nd I posted elsewere here that an organ playin' without reverb is not an organ. It would be better if you applied to GrandOrgue some convolution reverb (see Grahams tutorial on that, using Jack portaudio - works perfect).
3rd I can easyly understand that's a machine playing from the way the thrills come out. Baroque pieces have very specific style of ornaments that make every music work sound different from the way the player use these ornaments. Also, when an organist plays you can hear some little delay from feet to hands, or from passage to passage and not every note writen on the spot.

Of course I know you're not a player and if you want your machine to play more close to human you have to write yourself in the score the notes that must play in a given ornament. There's a very usefull guide for ornament explanation play in the old book of Bach's Chorales from Novello(London) no.16(Schubler chorale praeludes and Clavierubung ptIII) by John E. West (pages X&XI) and I think you can apply them easy for more enjoyment !

11 pages of Rameau... transcribed for organ from harpsi... a good one Mike.
You must specify though the bars where you're not happy with in bass harmonisation so I can help you with my version of them !

Thanks for your attachments, I keep them allright in my music folders.
Panos

P.S. I put your recording in my ES6 synthesizer and applied 44% of my own custom build Cathedral reverb...Sounds Great!
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Graham another thing.

GrandeOrgue responds to continuous (footpedals-11/4) controllers (Bx) - endorsments.
For my EL900 on ch16(...) but endorsment no.3 , also in system exclusive from my left switch pedal - changing 1~ 100 progs

Panos
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Graham, Couplers can be controlled by Bx, Cx or Note on/off commands, however they are restricted to being all on the same channel, would it be better if they were on the same channel that the relevant key/pedal board is on. example on SM set, P-I and P-II on pedal channel, I-II, I-4' and I-II 16' on G O channel and II-II16' on Pos channel. Then one could easily use Programme change, Cx commands as for divisionals.

If not then put all couplers on Cx commands on the pedal channel start the CX data numbering them from say 20 upwards, the generals could also use Cx on the pedal channel at the top end of the Cx range from 127 downwards. I suggest the PEdal channel cos that probably would carry the least "traffic".

Divisionals are working nicely with Cx 0 - 7 on relevant channels.

I've "made" an 8' Principal from the Enigma 16' and 4' Principals, may have to tweak the relative volumes a bit. Does anybody know of a free 16' flute sample or similar I can add to the Postiv, only got 8' and shorter on it so far!
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Mike, Hauptwerk can't do this thing. I tried to set divisionals on the same channel manual (my small 49 keyboard controller-CME) sends (lets say great manual ch2 - great div ch2) and gives a message that it's not possible to have them both, or anything else from controllers on the same channel.

I wonder how can we do this in GrandeOrgue...

I also tried to send cx from CME to any channel and GrandeOrgue don't respond EXEPT on program change no114 (!) GrandeOrgue opens the three couplers together (on the old St-Mockers/HW1)....

These so far, I think this is to be continued for long...
Panos
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Panos, Mike, and all,
Panos, I'm not understanding what you are saying here:
"GrandeOrgue responds to continuous (footpedals-11/4) controllers (Bx) - endorsments. For my EL900 on ch16(...) but endorsment no.3 , also in system exclusive from my left switch pedal - changing 1~ 100 progs"

Could you provide a little more detail (I'm not sure what you mean by 'endorsement'). I understand that your EL900 sends Bx messages (Control Change 11 and 4) on MIDI Channel 16. Are you saying that it also sends Control Change 3 messages?

If you want to use Cx messages for your Divisionals you also need to configure them within the .organ file. Modify the MIDIProgramChangeNumber=nnn property.

We are working on improving GrandOrgue and fixing bugs, so thank you Mike for your comments on the Divisionals. My personal feeling is that it might be best to have a separate channel configuration for each Manual's Divisionals, and another separate channel configuration for the Generals, with the defaults set to match the Divisionals with their respective Manual and the Generals with the Stop Control channel.

GrahamG
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
More details on EL900 midi sends

Hi Panos, Mike, and all,
Panos, I'm not understanding what you are saying here:
"GrandeOrgue responds to continuous (footpedals-11/4) controllers (Bx) - endorsments. For my EL900 on ch16(...) but endorsment no.3 , also in system exclusive from my left switch pedal - changing 1~ 100 progs"

Could you provide a little more detail (I'm not sure what you mean by 'endorsement'). I understand that your EL900 sends Bx messages (Control Change 11 and 4) on MIDI Channel 16. Are you saying that it also sends Control Change 3 messages?

If you want to use Cx messages for your Divisionals you also need to configure them within the .organ file. Modify the MIDIProgramChangeNumber=nnn property.

We are working on improving GrandOrgue and fixing bugs, so thank you Mike for your comments on the Divisionals. My personal feeling is that it might be best to have a separate channel configuration for each Manual's Divisionals, and another separate channel configuration for the Generals, with the defaults set to match the Divisionals with their respective Manual and the Generals with the Stop Control channel.

GrahamG

Hi Graham

EL900 above the pedalboard has two foot pedals. Left sends control ch16 no 4 (footcontroller), right sends control ch16 no11 (expression).

ON the right pedal there are two pedal switches one attached to the left front of it, the other on the right. These are very usefull when playing (do them on/off with the front of your feet). The left has many functions, one of them is turning slow/fast the rottary speacker for the EL900 organ flutes, the right one for jumping from "piston" to "piston" -i.e. I'm playing with "piston" 1 (of 16) and can go to "piston" 12 without using my hands -.

Of these two switches only the left one can send MIDI (shame cause I could turn on/off coupler stops with them) and as Control but with no number, only system exclusive CODE.
Yamaha manual says :
"Control Change . Code F0 43 70 70 40 45 7F F7 ~ Left footswitch ON ~ transmit/recieve YES. Code 00 ~ Left footswitch OFF ~ tran/recv YES".
MIDI MEDIC confirms these codes when I use this switch, as so Midi-ox.

My question is :
how can I use this switch to on/off coupler stops or anything else in GrandeOrgue. Keep in mind that in Hauptwerk also can not use it like this, but can use the right one for "piston" Jump (this because Hauptwerk responds on the spot from my "piston" change - program change)
Is it possible to send system exclusive code and turn it to controller number ? (lets say no64 sustain -that EL900 doesn't send..)

Endorsements.
Open Grand orgue. Define midi controller (EL900 aca (For GrandeOrgue) Romio II USB/Midi interface). Output : Asio4all or Jackrouter(thank you for that !!).
Midi Messages . Progr Up, Progr down (1~100) , then Endorsment 1 , 2, 3, 4, 5. Then pedals, mauals (grt,sw,ch,solo,echo). Then stops/couplers/div/gen.. Then div/gen SET.(work with properties button)

In all sample sets I got for, the swell pedal (where there is one) works from my expression controller when I go to endorsment no.3 and set ch16 controller number 11, click ok, go to Midi messages, click OK, go to console, play on positiv move the pedal see swell pedal in GrandeOrgue moving and altering the sound of positiv OK.

I say all these, because I know there are other people ouy there who have similar el.organs as controllers, with more or less the same attitude to MIDI and I'm shure, they too, wanna solve things and enjoy playing with Grande Orgue.

I hope I helped.
Panos
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Graham, remember I'm working with a Midi file, not an instrument, so now that I can edit the midi files and add any midi code I am gradually getting a deeper undeerstanding of what can and can't be done.

The easiest/only? way to control GO is for each keyboard or pedals to be on a separate channel, a channel can control up to 127 notes, so could not play 2 manuals and pedals, added to which a single manual midi keyboard would output notes on a specific channel; from what Panos says his instrument outputs a different channel(s) from each key/pedal board and is selectable.

It looks to me as though Programme changes, (Cx where x defines the channel number) , commands are intended by Midi to select a particular instrument, probably intended for synths, if you send them to the PCs built in MS GS Wavetable SW Synth it changes the instrument synthed dependant on the code following Cx, so 0 for grand piano, 20 for church organ etc, altogether 127 options.

In GrandOrgue we are not worried about different instruments so the Cx commands lend themselves to divisional control as they are specific for each channel.

Control mode (Bx) commands are split into groups and many of them are already "dedicated" to certain functions like volume control, all notes off, and some which I assume are aimed at electronic keyboards or controllers, like modulation wheel, foot pedal, after touch pressure, pitch wheel etc. 32 are labelled "undefined on/off", others as just "undefined" I'm avoiding them!!

The only item on GO which requires Bx is the swell pedal, stops and divisionals are selectable in terms of which channel, which type of command (Bx, CX or note on/off), Generals have command type (i.e. Cx only) and channel (0) greyed out.

From a midi file, two methods of stop control work well:

Using a separate channel with note on/off commands, allocating numbers for stops between 1 and 127. This track/channel can be made on extra stave(S) with tied chords, or adding an extra track to an existing midi file then editing in note on/off commands at the require postions in the file, actually a lot easier than it sounds!

Alternatively using divisionals with CX commands edited into the relevant channel for the associated key/pedal board. This is OK as long as you don't need more than 8 combinations of stops per channel.

Couplers can be operated by Bx, CX or note on/off but must all be on the same channel regardless of which keys/pedals they are associated with, I've been using Cx commands on the pedal channel.

Generals appear to be stuck with Cx commands with no channel allocated, they do work ............ sometimes!! I set up G1, 2 & 3 then added a different Cx command in each channel, G1 never worked, G2 sometimes worked, G3 worked most of ther time, I swapped commands between channels, it did not seem to make much difference, obviously needs much more time and effort to figure what is happening.

(I'm getting a bit fed up with the same tune over and over again!!)
 
Last edited:

Dorsetmike

Member
For anybody interested/desparate enough, I've attached a screen shot of Midiocre which I'm using for Midi file editing.

It can also display in "piano roll" format, tempo, Measures (how many notes in), controls and system messages.

The box in the screen centre has been opened by right clicking on the blue highlighted line. A drop down set of options allow you to select the command you want, in the example, a Programme change, when that is selected, set the programme number, for GO this could be a divisional number we have set in GO Audio settings. (Time in top left of box is in measure see below how times are defined within measures)

Columns from left to right of the main screen

Timing, (not absolutely certain but probably in seconds to 2 decimal places.)

Measure, 1.1.x = measure 1 beat 1, x= a time within that beat
...............2.2.x = Measure 2 beat 2 x=. "... ".... .. " .... " .... "
...............You should be able to cross reference to your score from this, however it counts total measures, so you need to allow for any repeats

Type of data, Midi (commands etc) or Meta, e.g. Track name, output device, end of track etc

Channel No.

Description, "translation" of code

Data Hexadecimal code.

For a free application it's good, took me a while to find its secrets, like right clicks to open the edit box.
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Panos,

Thank you for your in-depth explanation. Your 'Endorsement' = my 'Enclosure' - which in the .organ file contains the configuration properties for the Expression pedals. Now it makes more sense to me :)

GrahamG
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Mike,

We know that there is a bug in GrandOrgue 0.2 with the MIDI configuration of the Generals. We'll try to get it fixed for the next test release.

It sounds like you've found a program that does what you want it too... at last :)
Now my question... You say:
"Alternatively using divisionals with CX commands edited into the relevant channel for the associated key/pedal board. This is OK as long as you don't need more than 8 combinations of stops per channel."

Why is this limited to 8 combinations? Is this just because there are only eight divisionals configured in the .organ file (per manual). If so, this can be increased...

Thanks for your great effort in getting GrandOrgue working so well with MIDI files and for posting all your findings here for others to read and learn from!
GrahamG
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Panos,

Thank you for your in-depth explanation. Your 'Endorsement' = my 'Enclosure' - which in the .organ file contains the configuration properties for the Expression pedals. Now it makes more sense to me :)

GrahamG

Sorry Graham...:rolleyes: I wanted to write Enclosure...the deamon change it to Endorsment !!!!...????:confused:

Send for me and for all others your news about program change, when ready

Another thing.
You know I like adventures, so I installed the multi version...
Exept GrandeOrgue 1, all others 2~8 crashed...

I can work with two : The single version with G.O 1 from multi version using Jackportaudio/router and haning Reverberate added to both.:cool:

Panos
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Hi Graham, yes limit of 8 due to the number of divs per channel, couplers can also extend the choices, however once the Generals are sorted then it should not really be a problem, I mean just how many combinations would most of us need. Do I understand that the number of divs can be increased in the .organ file, if so I might test that for you, is it necessary to change anything apart from number of divs and the display column for the button.

I found that if you have a general selected you can operate one or 2 divisionals and change only the relevant setting, what you have on the other channels continues until overridden so that extends choice again.
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Mike,
Yes, the number of Divisionals is configured in the .organ file.

The number per manual is set by

NumberOfDivisionals=nnn

within the [Manualxxx] section.

Then the specific location and properties of the divisional piston is defined within the [Divisionalxxx] section. For example:

[Divisional001]
Name=1
Comments=
ShortcutKey=
NumberOfStops=8
Stop001=-001
Stop002=-002
Stop003=-003
Stop004=-004
Stop005=-005
Stop006=-006
Stop007=-007
Stop008=-008
NumberOfCouplers=2
Coupler001=-001
Coupler002=-002
NumberOfTremulants=0
DispLabelColour=Black
DispLabelFontSize=Large
Displayed=Y
DispImageNum=2
DispButtonRow=0
DispButtonCol=2
MIDIProgramChangeNumber=1
DispKeyLabelOnLeft=N

If you're willing to experiment with more, please do so, and post your questions and results ;)

GrahamG
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Panos,
I just quickly tested the Multiple versions on my laptop and I have 1, 2, and 3 open fine at the moment, all configured to JackRouter... (I do have 4 Gig of ram to play with, so memory is not an issue here). Do you want to troubleshoot your configuration to get more working?
GrahamG
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
GrandeOrgue Multi

Hi Panos,
I just quickly tested the Multiple versions on my laptop and I have 1, 2, and 3 open fine at the moment, all configured to JackRouter... (I do have 4 Gig of ram to play with, so memory is not an issue here). Do you want to troubleshoot your configuration to get more working?
GrahamG

Sorry Graham I didn't get what you ask me to do:confused:
My laptop has also 4GB memory, windows7x64bit/2.2GHz/fast dualcore Intel.
If I understand you want me to say what I did.
I opened jackrouter, then GO1~Asio$all, GO2~Asio, GO3~Asio, closed all GOs, reoppened them by changing Asio to Jackrouter(44100/512) and then after GO1 went ok GO2 crashed and GO3... Then I tried to open the rest 4~8 and each of them after opening crashed. So i left with GO1 stil standing.
I opened my single GO( she now opens with Jackrouter by default and works great) and made a connection with GO1 and Reverberate standalone(Savihost) makin' the connections with Jack control : click GO ~ click Rev, click GO1 ~ click Rev ~ click connect ~ everything OK Loaded organs, all with reverb, mix perfect. Play enjoy.:D

I hope I helped
Panos
 
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