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Fantasia Bwv542 by a...Ghost!

Marc

New member
Hi Marc !

I totaly agree with you. And of course I believe both stories, as I believe everything Anna Magdalena says in her book !

Playin' the fantasia alone... you give me points here to proceed and play it for my friends here without the fugue (witch I still workin;on and pract).
But as you say corectly, I just can finish without hearing the fugue theme....

Panos

Hi Panos,

Because I didn't see a 'smiley' when you referred to Anna Magdalena's book, I want to make clear that The Little Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach was written in 1925, by English author Esther Meynell.
But for decades musicians and scholars thought it was authentic .... quoting a lot from it. I think the story that Bach himself cried whilst composing the final chorus of the Matthäus-Passion (Wir setzen uns mit Tränen nieder) was one of those beautiful .... fables. ;)

There are many copies of BWV 542, though not one by Bach himself. AFAIK, the oldest one is a copy of the Fugue alone (around 1715) by Bach's pupil J.T. Krebs. There's also a version of the Fugue alone, transfered to F-minor, probably by C.P.E. Bach. Most couplings of the pieces are from the 2nd half of the 18th century. But I'm not entirely sure 'bout all this, it's all info out of memory, thanx to some Bach books that I borrowed several times from libraries. Tough reading stuff for a layman like me, but interesting all the same. :)
Because lots of Bach's compositions aren't delivered in original manuscripts, I guess his oeuvre will continue to be a 'yummy' research subject for many scholars.

Regarding Mozart and Bach: if Mozart refers to Bach, one can be quite sure that in most cases he meant Johann Christian Bach, JSB's youngest son, AKA the London Bach. He was very popular in his time, and had great influence on a.o. Mozart (who met him in his childhood years) and Haydn. But yes, in the 2nd half of the 18th century also C.P.E. Bach was more famous than his father. His book Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen (1753) was a must-have for every keyboard composer and player.
Mozart really dug into JSB after Count Gottfried van Swieten (diplomat, of Dutch origin, living in Vienna) showed him some Bach copies .... with a very understandable effect on Wolfgang Amadé. :D
 
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Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Panos,

Because I didn't see a 'smiley' when you referred to Anna Magdalena's book, I want to make clear that The Little Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach was written in 1925, by English author Esther Meynell.
But for decades musicians and scholars thought it was authentic .... quoting a lot from it. I think the story that Bach himself cried whilst composing the final chorus of the Matthäus-Passion (Wir setzen uns mit Tränen nieder) was one of those beautiful .... fables. ;)

There are many copies of BWV 542, though not one by Bach himself. AFAIK, the oldest one is a copy of the Fugue alone (around 1715) by Bach's pupil J.T. Krebs. There's also a version of the Fugue alone, transfered to F-minor, probably by C.P.E. Bach. Most couplings of the pieces are from the 2nd half of the 18th century. But I'm not entirely sure 'bout all this, it's all info out of memory, thanx to some Bach books that I borrowed several times from libraries. Tough reading stuff for a layman like me, but interesting all the same. :)
Because lots of Bach's compositions aren't delivered in original manuscripts, I guess his oeuvre will continue to be a 'yummy' research subject for many scholars.

Regarding Mozart and Bach: if Mozart refers to Bach, one can be quite sure that in most cases he meant Johann Christian Bach, JSB's youngest son, AKA the London Bach. He was very popular in his time, and had great influence on a.o. Mozart (who met him in his childhood years) and Haydn. But yes, in the 2nd half of the 18th century also C.P.E. Bach was more famous than his father. His book Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen (1753) was a must-have for every keyboard composer and player.
Mozart really dug into JSB after Count Gottfried van Swieten (diplomat, of Dutch origin, living in Vienna) showed him some Bach copies .... with a very understandable effect on Wolfgang Amadé. :D

Hi again Marc .
I had to put a smiley allright, but I forgot, sorry... It's a well known story.:rolleyes: I just wanted to point out that i'm IN for everything concerns JSB.

542 is known to have been in existence for some years before 1725, and was most probably composed for Bach's visit to Hamburg in 1720. the fugue subject, perhaps intentionally, somewhat resembles a movement in Reinken's "Hortus Musicus"... My copy of the work is from June 1940 and Walter Emery.

Mozart said about P.Emanuel : "He is the Father, we are the Children" and Beethoven said to his pupil Karl Czerny : "You must definatetly get the C.P.E Bach's book !", his influence on Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven is undisputable. But he started having the best teacher, his father !

it seems to be continued....
Panos:cool:
 

Marc

New member
Hi again Marc .
I had to put a smiley allright, but I forgot, sorry... It's a well known story.:rolleyes: I just wanted to point out that i'm IN for everything concerns JSB.

542 is known to have been in existence for some years before 1725, and was most probably composed for Bach's visit to Hamburg in 1720. the fugue subject, perhaps intentionally, somewhat resembles a movement in Reinken's "Hortus Musicus"... My copy of the work is from June 1940 and Walter Emery.

Mozart said about P.Emanuel : "He is the Father, we are the Children" and Beethoven said to his pupil Karl Czerny : "You must definatetly get the C.P.E Bach's book !", his influence on Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven is undisputable. But he started having the best teacher, his father !

it seems to be continued....
Panos:cool:

Yes, daddy Leopold wrote another classic .... about the violin.
I'm also IN for (almost) everything concerning JSB .... simply because I love his music.
I've been listening to (and enjoying!) his organ music like a madman since the beginning of 2009 .... and I already adored almost anything of his oeuvre before that, especially his vocal compositions. The cantata discovery journey of Contratrombone64 almost makes me jealous ;). I once started that same journey when I was about 13 or 14 years of age, listening every Sunday to the radio, where the appropriate cantates were broadcasted (the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt edition, which was still on its way then), recording them on a small mono MC recorder.

Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end. :cry:
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
They never ended Mark, now we have Orgel Radio on the web for 24 hours a day !

I use to to record with a mono MC rec.. you went me years back, so yes those were the days.

As for the organ music... I'm listennig like a maniac from 1978 onwards, though my teacher put me deep inside Bach/Mozart/Chopin/Schubert from the very start of my piano lassons when I was 5&1/2 old.

High Hopes
Panos
 

Marc

New member
They never ended Mark, now we have Orgel Radio on the web for 24 hours a day !

I use to to record with a mono MC rec.. you went me years back, so yes those were the days.

As for the organ music... I'm listennig like a maniac from 1978 onwards, though my teacher put me deep inside Bach/Mozart/Chopin/Schubert from the very start of my piano lassons when I was 5&1/2 old.

High Hopes
Panos

My first 'real' encounter with Bach's organ music was a vinyl issue with Marie-Claire Alain playing hits like BWV 565, 593, 542 and 582. Must have been some 25 years ago.
After her, I got me some Power Biggs and Leonhardt, too.

Kept listening to Bach and his organ, but not in a maniac way. ;)
This has changed, as I said, since last year. Now I sometimes do feel sorry that I didn't change into a madman before. :grin:

My own piano skills are terrible, to say the least. :(
But I can play some Duvernoy and one or two Menuettos by JSB. :)
In general: I'm happy!
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
My dear friend Marc,

My journey through the Bach Cantatas is one of those "once I finish I can die happy" events for me. Each one is totally unique (except of course where J.S. was understandably lazy and stole/reused his own music...afterall he did have lots of children, two wifes and spent an awful lot time in his attic practising on a spinster, opps, spinet). Each has the most exquisetly crafted use of his tiny orchestras.

I listened to one yesterday (somewhere between BWV 50 and BWV 60) scored for 2 violins, 2 violas, continuo, Soprano and Bass (no chorus). I wept at the astounding beauty of the fragrant and finely crafted use of the violins and violas, just so delicious.

Bach simply understood how all his orchestral instruments worked perfectly ... that's not to say they are easy to perform, far from it, but they fall under the fingers beautifuly (I'm an ex-professional viola player).
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Last night I listened again to all the recordings I have of this work BWV 542, and I think I have to reasses my leaning to the Vikings (Knud Vad and Hans Fagius) and say that the one with Ritchie, on a modern but beautiful American organ, is pretty damned fine (it irks me to praise the yanks).
 

Marc

New member
My dear friend Marc,

My journey through the Bach Cantatas is one of those "once I finish I can die happy" events for me. Each one is totally unique (except of course where J.S. was understandably lazy and stole/reused his own music...afterall he did have lots of children, two wifes and spent an awful lot time in his attic practising on a spinster, opps, spinet). Each has the most exquisetly crafted use of his tiny orchestras.

I listened to one yesterday (somewhere between BWV 50 and BWV 60) scored for 2 violins, 2 violas, continuo, Soprano and Bass (no chorus). I wept at the astounding beauty of the fragrant and finely crafted use of the violins and violas, just so delicious.

Bach simply understood how all his orchestral instruments worked perfectly ... that's not to say they are easy to perform, far from it, but they fall under the fingers beautifuly (I'm an ex-professional viola player).

I don't think we disagree here. :)

Last night I listened again to all the recordings I have of this work BWV 542, and I think I have to reasses my leaning to the Vikings (Knud Vad and Hans Fagius) and say that the one with Ritchie, on a modern but beautiful American organ, is pretty damned fine (it irks me to praise the yanks).

Well, hats off then to you! ;)

Seriously now: I think Ritchie is a very good Bach performer! His (not so complete) integral is one of my treasured box sets in da house. I prefer Bach on the organ in his rather straightforward and no-nonsense manner of playing.

About the cantatas: there are some, no: many(!) more or less known beautiful examples that I will always errr .... treasure (didn't I use that word before?).
Like a typical Bach aria (for contralto) of BWV 44 (Sie werden euch in den Bann tun) called "Christen müssen auf der Erden ...": all parts are of the same value, melody and accompaniment swirling through all of them. Sorry for this non-scholastic description .... but when I first heard this one as a kid (some 30 years ago) I listened with both ears and mouth wide open! :grin: And I still do.
One of the most stunning arias I know of Bach is another contralto one, of BWV 125 (Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin): "Ich will auch mit gebroch'nen Augen ...". This one stops all the clocks. Heartfelt and heartbreaking.
 
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Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Marc - as my German is almost non-existant (unlike my Danish) I used "google translate" on some of the titles, here are the amusing results:

Sie werden euch in den Bann tun
They'll do so in the spell (?!?)

Christen mussen auf der Erden
Christians have to the earth

Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin
with peace and joy I depart

Ich will auch mit gebroch'nen Augen
I will also gebroch'nen eyes (obviously had issues with idiomatic German!)
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Marc, CT, you make me happy.:):):):):)

I started this thread partly as a joke, partly as to give something to have fun, but I hoped that someone will start something more serius about JSB.

So, post after post, I think we can make a ...trial notebook on 542 and beyond !:D

Seriusly now, I stoped a little on what CT said about Sebastian, the atic and the spinette. How diferent age for composing....Nowadays we got everything we need, easy and sometimes (with donwload) without paying a dime.
Imagine : just one spinette, that you have to tune it every now and then, some candles, selfmade music papers for the score (I think you have seen some of JS scores with his not so strait lines on staves), kids all around the place, not enough money...
And with all these odds, he gave us the best there is.
We on the other hand, with all these luxury of abilities, we can not even come close...

I did an experiment two months ago.
I downloaded the Italian Spinette from Sonimusicae site, and went, not havin' money to spent, with my wife, son, three cats and a dog, to my small vacation appartment (just 17 sq.m.)by the sea, having with me my pc(for the spinette), my small 49key (as has the spinette) midi keyboard and my headphones along with scores from JSB and Frescobaldi and Vivaldi.
I tell you guys with this I got a serius taste of how the things were then.
Try it, you 'll remember me.

Cheers
Panos
 
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