Organ Music of J.S. Bach - General thread

[Marc]

I just proposed my point of view on how certain works of him have to be performed, in order to reach the golden cut between the performer and the audience in our times, based on things we have learn from our older teachers.
[....]
Take fugue 578 in Gm. Beautiful melody, exeptional contrapunctal harmonisation and hard times for the feet. Most fellow organists play it at about 90 to 100 BPM. Good show.
But, try it in about 80BPM or at the extreme 74to78 and you've got something else. Everything sounds with a certain mystical meaning and acceptence of the pact between God and mankind, the cut between Heaven and Earth.

Yes, certain works indeed.
Take Prelude & Fugue in E-minor BWV 533. I don't mind if the Prelude is played in a more slow and 'grave' way .... but in this performance I feel it's a bit exaggerated (organist: André Isoir). I like the mainly organo pleno throughout though .... and of course the 1750 Gabler 4-manual at Weingarten Abbey, Germany!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyFP-s_ZQc

If interpretation is concerned, I f.i. prefer this one (Marie-Claire Alain). The straightforward playing of the Fugue brings me in a flush of excitement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qVP95mZm-4

 

[Marc]

Koopman's first recording of the Trio Sonatas (DG/Archiv) is indeed a fine disc!
He's well balanced between enjoyment in the outer movements, and a meditative mood in some of the slow parts.
I will certainly play this one more often .... which will make me a very busy man , because I also like the readings of f.i. Simon Preston (DG), Bine Katrine Bryndorf (Classico) and Marie-Claire Alain (Erato; on the Schnitger/Van Oeckelen organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL) very much. Alas, the latter two are (AFAIK) officially OOP.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Marc !
I'm glad you like it as I do and you know, I come to listen to this recording very often within a month. The work is very mature and enjoyable and Ton did a very good work to present it.

Cheers:cheers:
Panos

 

[mathetes1963]

What does everyone here think of M-C Alain's most recent integral Bach, or of James' Kibbie's?
I picked up the Alain set on a torrent site awhile back, and generally like it very much. She plays a number of Silbermann and Schnitger instruments, and for the most part I like her approach (though sometimes a bit too "free" in the Toccatas/Preludes & Fugues for my taste).The complete set is OOP, but individual volumes (or most of them) seem to be available at more or less reasonable prices on Amazon; probably try to the pick up the actual CD's when finances permit. The Kibbie set, on historic organs in Germany, is available as a free download, but I frankly find it a mixed bag.
Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Marc]

What does everyone here think of M-C Alain's most recent integral Bach, or of James' Kibbie's?
I picked up the Alain set on a torrent site awhile back, and generally like it very much. She plays a number of Silbermann and Schnitger instruments, and for the most part I like her approach (though sometimes a bit too "free" in the Toccatas/Preludes & Fugues for my taste).The complete set is OOP, but individual volumes (or most of them) seem to be available at more or less reasonable prices on Amazon; probably try to the pick up the actual CD's when finances permit. The Kibbie set, on historic organs in Germany, is available as a free download, but I frankly find it a mixed bag.
Thoughts, anyone?

I have the Trio Sonatas disc of Alain's third (!) integral, and I like it very much. But maybe that's also because I'm somehow in love with the Schnitger organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen (NL).

I also have a sampler of this Alain integral (issued last year or so) and I think it's quite good. Nevertheless, my feeling is that in general Alain is less impressive and more aloof compared to her second integral, which is still available. This second set was played on neo-baroque/classical organs. This also goes for her first integral which was recorded in the sixties, but alas has never been reissued on cd.

The Kibbie download is a great initiative, and in most cases I like Kibbie's no nonsense approach. The sound quality is good, IMO, and I do not mind about the variety of the instruments. In this way, it makes me think a little of the CPO integral by Gerhard Weinberger: some large organs, some small organs, some spatial recordings, some close miking. Yes, this makes for a mixed bag indeed, but it's nice to get to know these vintage beauties .... for FREE!
A very short thread about this subject can be found here:
http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/8407-james-kibbie-plays-bach.html

Btw, here are some performances on the Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk, issued in 1990 by Lindenberg Books & Music. They went bankrupt in 2008 and now their productions are all officially OOP.

Bernard Winsemius (1945) plays Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4t2quylmju

Stef Tuinstra (1954) plays Chorale O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (I think this is a keyboard setting of BWV 401)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1mwj5yzomd

Winsemius: Trio Sonata in E-minor BWV 528
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdyynlztajn

Winsemius: Chorale Partita Christ, der du bist der helle Tag BWV 766
http://www.mediafire.com/?ozd31zymomu

Tuinstra: Prelude & Fugue in D-minor BWV 539
http://www.mediafire.com/?2kfkqzoow1g

Enjoy!

 

[wljmrbill]

I enjoy the great sound of the instrument and well performed too. Thanks

 

[mathetes1963]

Thanks Marc! Downloading now...
Yeah, I really admire the idea behind the Kibbie set, It is a very noble undertaking to offer these gratis!

Dare I mention Daniel Chorzempa or Karl Richter? Here are two *radically* different readings of the "Dorian" Toccata & Fugue, Chorzempa on Hinsz/Kampen, Richter at Silbermann/Freiberg. These are my two favorite interpretations of this work, and I like each for entirely different reasons.

Chorzempa:
Toccata
Fugue

Richter:
Toccata
Fugue

I have the Trio Sonatas disc of Alain's third (!) integral, and I like it very much. But maybe that's also because I'm somehow in love with the Schnitger organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen (NL).

I also have a sampler of this Alain integral (issued last year or so) and I think it's quite good. Nevertheless, my feeling is that in general Alain is less impressive and more aloof compared to her second integral, which is still available. This second set was played on neo-baroque/classical organs. This also goes for her first integral which was recorded in the sixties, but alas has never been reissued on cd.

The Kibbie download is a great initiative, and in most cases I like Kibbie's no nonsense approach. The sound quality is good, IMO, and I do not mind about the variety of the instruments. In this way, it makes me think a little of the CPO integral by Gerhard Weinberger: some large organs, some small organs, some spatial recordings, some close miking. Yes, this makes for a mixed bag indeed, but it's nice to get to know these vintage beauties .... for FREE!
A very short thread about this subject can be found here:
http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/8407-james-kibbie-plays-bach.html

Btw, here are some performances on the Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk, issued in 1990 by Lindenberg Books & Music. They went bankrupt in 2008 and now their productions are all officially OOP.

Bernard Winsemius (1945) plays Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4t2quylmju

Stef Tuinstra (1954) plays Chorale O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (I think this is a keyboard setting of BWV 401)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1mwj5yzomd

Winsemius: Trio Sonata in E-minor BWV 528
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdyynlztajn

Winsemius: Chorale Partita Christ, der du bist der helle Tag BWV 766
http://www.mediafire.com/?ozd31zymomu

Tuinstra: Prelude & Fugue in D-minor BWV 539
http://www.mediafire.com/?2kfkqzoow1g

Enjoy!

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

What does everyone here think of M-C Alain's most recent integral Bach, or of James' Kibbie's?
I picked up the Alain set on a torrent site awhile back, and generally like it very much. She plays a number of Silbermann and Schnitger instruments, and for the most part I like her approach (though sometimes a bit too "free" in the Toccatas/Preludes & Fugues for my taste).The complete set is OOP, but individual volumes (or most of them) seem to be available at more or less reasonable prices on Amazon; probably try to the pick up the actual CD's when finances permit. The Kibbie set, on historic organs in Germany, is available as a free download, but I frankly find it a mixed bag.
Thoughts, anyone?

A good one here Mathetes 1963.

My taste goes with Alain. I like her very much, though she's best more on romantic works and French composers than German school. I like her ERATO recordings (seventies), I got many of them and still one can find these CDs in a regular CD shop in the center of Athens, no web at all, just a walk, shoping and coffee
Her sometimes free approach in Bach's and not only, works, I believe is her trademark, her personality.

My favorite organs are Silbermanns, Schnitgers, Flentrops and some Italian early 1600 ~ 1650 organs. For my taste these represent the essence of the instrument and are the perfect terrain to play Bach.
Of course who is to dispute the great quality and presence of a massive Cavaille-Coll......?

"Dorian" is one of my favorite works. Richter is good. But I prefere H.Walcha (Aalkmar/Strassburg 1958~1969 LPs), Helmut Winter (close mikes on Silbermann), Wolfgang Stockmeier (full works up to 1978) and... Ton Koopman (Archiv recs).
I almost allways play the toccata when I open my organ set, the fugue...I still workin'on to control it...


Marc, thanks for your links, I really start to enjoy this thread ! Now I must find something good in return !:grin:

Cheers
Panos

 

[Marc]

[....]
Dare I mention Daniel Chorzempa or Karl Richter? Here are two *radically* different readings of the "Dorian" Toccata & Fugue, Chorzempa on Hinsz/Kampen, Richter at Silbermann/Freiberg. These are my two favorite interpretations of this work, and I like each for entirely different reasons.

The Richter links lead me to a young Polish organist and to Aarnoud de Groen, a Dutch organist, who btw also offers some free mp3's at his own website:

http://www.aarnouddegroen.com/indexEn.htm

I have both Chorzempa & Richter on disc, and I definitely prefer the American. Richter isn't my favourite Bach interpreter, I'm not really fond of his sewing machine style (though I like Singer ). OTOH, I tend to be more 'forgiving' if organ music is concerned and therefore I seem to be more open to all kinds of different approaches.
I listend to Richter this morning on disc and didn't get overly enthousiastic about the Toccata, but I liked the Fugue. Then came the famous Chorale Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme BWV 645, and I got bored again very quickly.

Daniel Chorzempa is OK in my book, although I think I prefer his earlier recordings (less static). Like this recording (Bach & Liszt), recently reissued on Hybrid SACD, where he plays the Flentrop organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, NL:

http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-Bach-Liszt-Hybrid/dp/B0009KBMLM/

[....]
Marc, thanks for your links, I really start to enjoy this thread! Now I must find something good in return! :grin:

You're welcome. My pleasure.
Plz, don't feel too obliged, though.
I myself try to be cautious with uploading, and restrict myself to recordings which (AFAIK) are officially OOP (although some of them might be found at Marketplace or eBay-like sites), or performances which are issued by small Dutch labels and therefore very difficult to get if one's living abroad.

 

[mathetes1963]

Sorry guys! I can't access Youtube @ work, so I posted the links "blind" so to speak. HERE is the Karl Richter BWV 538:
Toccata
Fugue

I'm sure the "purists" are gnashing their teeth, but I love this interpretation...such passion!

@Panos: I agree, the old European organs (and American ones prior to WW2) are the best. Hope to hear a Cavaille'-Coll up close & personal one of these days...
@Marc: I don't like all of Richter's playing, but there's just something about his reading of the "Dorian" that really moves me. Call me weird.

 

[Marc]

Sorry guys! I can't access Youtube @ work, so I posted the links "blind" so to speak. HERE is the Karl Richter BWV 538:
Toccata
Fugue

I'm sure the "purists" are gnashing their teeth, but I love this interpretation...such passion!

[....]

@Marc: I don't like all of Richter's playing, but there's just something about his reading of the "Dorian" that really moves me. Call me weird.

It seems to me you're happy with your own preferences. I wouldn't call that weird.

But Richter & me isn't a real love story, that's all. It's been that way since I was about 13 or 14 years old, and I had my first taste of the great Bach vocal works and cantatas. Without the burden of 'knowledge' or 'purist's or scholastic opinions' I listened to the radio and borrowed vinyl LP's from the local phonothèque. I liked the performances of f.i. Leonhardt, Harnoncourt and Herreweghe very much, I was able to appreciate not-so-purists like Charles de Wolff and Fritz Werner, and I didn't like the performances by Richter. In some cases, preferences change, but apparently not in Richter's case. (Call me weird. )
I do like at least Richter's recording of Bach's Magnificat BWV 243 (coupled with BWV 140 on DG Galleria), and his recording of the Brandenburg Concertos, first half of the sixties, issued by DG/Archiv. I especially have a weak spot for the 2nd in F-Major BWV 1047. Now and then I allow myself to get blown away by that one again.

All this doesn't mean that I consider Richter as 'not done' in Bach. I think he's essential for understanding the development of 20th century Bach interpretation, and he had great influence on the next generation, even in times that 'authenticism' and 'HIP' gained their way.
In a way, I think that f.i. Helmuth Rilling is half a Richter-pupil and half a purist-pupil. But to be honest: Rilling isn't my cup of tea .... either.

But this is mainly non-organ talk and therefore a bit off-topic. I didn't listen to Bach's organ this evening & night because of the football/soccer finale of the Champion's League. But there will be more days to come.

Oh, btw, I did listen to Chorzempa late this afternoon, and I have to say that his 1983 recording of the 'Vivaldi Concertos' is quite good. It's better than two other eighties recordings that I have. On those I find him a bit too static, reticent and even slightly mannered sometimes. Funny thing is that in many cases the Vivaldi- and other transcriptions seem to bring out the best of almost every organist, even of those that I do not really favour myself.

 

[Marc]

Out of print: Wolfgang Rübsam's first integral (Philips).
Therefore I hope you all enjoy these three chorale arrangements for Whitsun, played on the Metzler organ of the St. Nikolauskirke, Frauenfeld, Switzerland.

BWV 651:
http://www.mediafire.com/?nth4224ywzt

BWV 652:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ttgrttzkjyh

BWV 667:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uqtzjqntqzq

 

[Marc]

Sometimes one hears people say I've heard that tune too much.

Personally, it doesn't apply for this one:

[YOUTUBE]F6-UXRic7Pg[/YOUTUBE]
Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude (taken from BWV 147) on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Every time I hear it is as it was the first time.
It's never too much with some diamonds like this.
They shine forever.
Very Good performance, very good organ. M.C.Alain came closer to me with one of her versions.

Marc, thank you.
Panos

 

[Contratrombone64]

I agree, this is just devine music. Our musical great-grand-daddy Bach certainly knew how to twist harmonies and melodies around chorale tunes.

 

[Marc]

Another interesting link, I think:

http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/bach_kunst_der_fuge.html

 

[mathetes1963]

Another interesting link, I think:

http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/bach_kunst_der_fuge.html

Um, Marc, is this recording PD?

 

[Marc]

Um, Marc, is this recording PD?

I'm not sure what PD means in this context.
I had 3 possibilities:
1 Public Domain
2 Pure Data
3 Prisoner's Dilemma :grin:

About 1: not entirely sure, to be honest. But I checked the internet first and I don't think it's a rip-off from a still available CD. Corti did make an official recording of the AoF earlier, but that one was played on the Tamburini organ of the Catholic cathedral in Milan. This official 'studio' recording is also worthwhile btw, as is his entire integral, although that one is rather difficult to get. It might be officially OOP.
The 2007 live performance sounds like a high level amateur recording .... or maybe even meant for broadcast originally ....?
About 2: if there are problems with the data, I converted the FLACs with the freeware Koyote Soft free sound converter.
About 3: ....

 

[Contratrombone64]

Prima Donna?

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Panos' Diapassons ?!