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Thread: Spanish Organs and music.

  1. #1
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Ntalikeris666's Avatar
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    Spanish Organs and music.

    Hello again,

    One of the most special organ characters, are the one that spanish organs have. Their extraordinary design and selection of stops make them somehow unique. An interesting fact is that even the smallest organ, might have en-chamade trumpets, since the idea behind those old organs, was (when they were constructed) to produce as much noise as possible without using excessive amounts of air, resulting in the known "wind disease".
    So don't be surprised if even the smallest instrument has has reed stops. In addition to that, the mixtures and principals of spanish organs have quite a unique character and tuning as well. Here are some interesting clips of Spanish organ music performed on various historical spanish organs:
    -Note that some of these organs are still hand pumped-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gacC...os=YOfzfaVcr7Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baDDTH0hMf0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuKG9...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinoO...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH97M...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8t6X8buaLo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryHGm...os=tKYu2qxCsbs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryHGm...os=tKYu2qxCsbs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m-T9...os=pf4aClxB8Lg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVMz4XDR6eE

  2. #2
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Great work here Nick. Invaluable information, at least to me...
    I'm building a Spanish Organ (very small) example for Kontakt4 using original samples from real Spaniards. So I 'll have to do some more homework now after your post...
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

  3. #3
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Ntalikeris666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghekorg7 View Post
    Great work here Nick. Invaluable information, at least to me...
    I'm building a Spanish Organ (very small) example for Kontakt4 using original samples from real Spaniards. So I 'll have to do some more homework now after your post...
    Glad to know that my information was useful!
    Thats a really interesting project. I wish you the best of luck.
    There are many sites where you can get information for old historical spanish organs and their unique features.

    Keep me posted,
    Nick

  4. #4
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso wljmrbill's Avatar
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    Thanks Nick for posting. Very enjoyable music. I really like the Callido Gaetano organ at Church of San Leonardo
    ....To play only what is written is the domain of science. To realize what is not written is the domain of art."
    - Jean Langlais

    I wish you the Best for each day, now and always.

    Bill

  5. #5
    Ensign, Principal
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    I work on a 20 stops, 100 years old Alberdi-Marti Spanish organ. It has nice sounds...but...it has ¡6! reed stops and a weak principal. Too much noise to my taste.

  6. #6
    Ensign, Principal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luis Enrique View Post
    I work on a 20 stops, 100 years old Alberdi-Marti Spanish organ. It has nice sounds...but...it has ¡6! reed stops and a weak principal. Too much noise to my taste.
    Me again: anybody could take look to this organ in:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tLBUqrcQfk

  7. #7
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso wljmrbill's Avatar
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    Luis.. nice playing. I agree a bit brassy/shreiking overtones. Thanks for link.... Bill
    ....To play only what is written is the domain of science. To realize what is not written is the domain of art."
    - Jean Langlais

    I wish you the Best for each day, now and always.

    Bill

  8. #8
    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Luis,

    Thanks for sharing this ... I agree, nice playing, and a wonderful sound considering its age and voicing. Love the natural reverberation there, too.
    Kh ~~.
    Administrator


    Amateur musicians practice until they get it right ...
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    fessional musicians practice until they can't get it wrong ...


  9. #9
    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    Afraid to say I'd rather have root canal than listen to a Spanish pipe organ frankly, especially those anicent ones. Sound, to me at least, is a cross between a lawn mower and a kazoo
    I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
    —Albert Einstein.

  10. #10
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Ntalikeris666's Avatar
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    You are welcome.
    Thanks all for your kind comments ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nick

  11. #11
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Ntalikeris666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luis Enrique View Post
    Me again: anybody could take look to this organ in:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tLBUqrcQfk
    Hmmm, here is a clip of a guy playing on a similar but bigger organ.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNFogXN9k8

    Cheers,
    Nick

  12. #12
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contratrombone64 View Post
    Afraid to say I'd rather have root canal than listen to a Spanish pipe organ frankly, especially those anicent ones. Sound, to me at least, is a cross between a lawn mower and a kazoo
    David my friend, what can I say....With this opinion of yours, you seem to throw all Spanish culture, art and history into the waste basket, or as we say in Greece, into Ke(h)adas !
    What is the difference between an Ileno stop and a Mixture stop ?
    What is the difference between a Violon8' stop and a Bourdon/Rohrflote8'?
    What is the diference between a Flautado8' and a principal/Montre8'?
    No difference at all. Unless you mean that a principal 8' sounds like a lawnmower....
    Be more specific and detailed ,please....

    Cheers
    Panos
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

  13. #13
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Ntalikeris666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghekorg7 View Post
    David my friend, what can I say....With this opinion of yours, you seem to throw all Spanish culture, art and history into the waste basket, or as we say in Greece, into Ke(h)adas !
    What is the difference between an Ileno stop and a Mixture stop ?
    What is the difference between a Violon8' stop and a Bourdon/Rohrflote8'?
    What is the diference between a Flautado8' and a principal/Montre8'?
    No difference at all. Unless you mean that a principal 8' sounds like a lawnmower....
    Be more specific and detailed ,please....

    Cheers
    Panos
    Well, Panos,
    I would like to clear something out considering the names of the stops.
    A Violon8' and a Principal 8' dont have the same pipes. Maybe something in their construction differs. Other than that, it is just the origin of the organ. A German one will more likely have a Prinzipal 8 while an english one an Open Diapason 8. Speaking generally, they are in the same Diapason category, but when it comes to specifics they might sound different. Since these names are found on different organs (cavaille coll , Silbermann lets say) you might as well find a Mixture IV in both of them, but it will sound nothing close to that. Same goes to the reeds and other flue pipes.
    Details such as how high the mouth of the pipe is, or what exactly the pipe is made of, air pressure and many other factors, determine the final sound which comes from a pipe.
    So the difference between stops which share the same name translated in different languages, depends on where the organ originates from.

    So in a case where we say that a Principal stop is weak, it is meant that it might speak slowly, or it might not have a full round tone.

    Cheers,
    Nick.

  14. #14
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    OK Nick. Don't disagree with what you say, but I said Flautado 8'. This stop sounds to me close to Principal8' found on German organs. And Principal8', I think, sounds louder and richer in harmonics than a Rohrflote8', Example : one can play a manualiter piece (Bux169)with only Principal8' (Schnitger, Flentrop, Silberman) and sound marvelous. With a Rohlflote8' alone one can play a good accompaniment to a positiv solo....

    Anyway, the flautado 8' sample that I got sounds beautiful and rich. as is the Ileno very close to a mixtureIV of any German organ.

    My point is that Spanish organs have a great history behind them, sound diferent in some cases and very familiar in others and we cannot just overthrow them out of site.
    Great Spanish organs : St.Agusti,Palma - St.Geroni, Palma - St. Martin, Trujillo, Orgue de Covarrubias, to name a few.

    I just finished my Spaniard for Kontakt4. Is an experiment : 2man/ped, just 3 stops each and a big Cathedral environment. I was dealing with the actual samples for 15 days now, so I have them in my ears even now as we speak !!!!

    Proposition : Any member who wants to try it and give me some advice, please welcome, pm me to e-mail the bank (provided one has Kontakt4 installed....)

    So,...to be continued , I must say.
    Panos
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

  15. #15
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Ntalikeris666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghekorg7 View Post
    OK Nick. Don't disagree with what you say, but I said Flautado 8'. This stop sounds to me close to Principal8' found on German organs. And Principal8', I think, sounds louder and richer in harmonics than a Rohrflote8', Example : one can play a manualiter piece (Bux169)with only Principal8' (Schnitger, Flentrop, Silberman) and sound marvelous. With a Rohlflote8' alone one can play a good accompaniment to a positiv solo....

    Anyway, the flautado 8' sample that I got sounds beautiful and rich. as is the Ileno very close to a mixtureIV of any German organ.

    My point is that Spanish organs have a great history behind them, sound diferent in some cases and very familiar in others and we cannot just overthrow them out of site.
    Great Spanish organs : St.Agusti,Palma - St.Geroni, Palma - St. Martin, Trujillo, Orgue de Covarrubias, to name a few.

    I just finished my Spaniard for Kontakt4. Is an experiment : 2man/ped, just 3 stops each and a big Cathedral environment. I was dealing with the actual samples for 15 days now, so I have them in my ears even now as we speak !!!!

    Proposition : Any member who wants to try it and give me some advice, please welcome, pm me to e-mail the bank (provided one has Kontakt4 installed....)

    So,...to be continued , I must say.
    Panos
    Oh, sorry i must have misinterpered your post.
    I did not get it right at first.

    Thanks for clearing it out.
    Nick.

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