Piano to Organ Transition

[UCG Musician]

I am finding it very difficult to transition from piano to organ. I've played piano for 55 years (so I can't claim to be 39!) and started playing organ about five months ago. At the time I considered it both an exciting challenge and a daunting endeavor.

At the suggestion of someone on this forum (Krummhorn, perhaps?) I obtained a Gleason Method book and started taking lessons. While the instrument I play at church is an Allen electronic organ (an MDS-50) I am fortunate that my instructor arranged for me to have access to a 54-rank pipe organ (the same one that I heard Felix Hell play about 6-7 years ago!). I am practicing about 8 hours per week on it.

There are days when I think I'm making some progress but many others where it just seems my brain can't make my feet go where they should. The proper position, as I understand it, is unnatural to me (knees and heels together as much as possible and ankles turned inward). When I locate on the bench I orientate to C in the left foot and G in the right, a fifth apart like the way Gleason lessons begin. I suppose I actually hit C and G about 50% of the time without looking. But after working at this for nearly five months, shouldn't it be more like 90%? Maybe I'm just a klutz!

The other issue I have with pedals is that I may orientate towards C and G but lots of pieces don't start on C. Getting a bearing on where the first pedal note really is puzzles me.

Also, I understand that the feel and technique of organ playing is very different than those of piano playing. I am trying to develop that feel but it's hard to concentrate on both that and what my feet are doing. What does it take to get one's feet to instinctively "know" where they are? How long should it take to coordinate when the music has three different types of rhythms going. (Today my teacher put a Bach Chorale Prelude in front of me and I was quite intimidated by it.)

Perhaps I'm asking too many questions or not identifying the issues adequately but if someone can suggest how long the learning curve should be and what might be delaying my progress I would appreciate it.

 

[Contratrombone64]

You know what? Your issues with your mental map and your feet were not ordained by god to you alone. Everyone, including the most exceptional performers on the pipe organ, has gone through this: simple fact, your brain needs to be trained where you feet should go. This takes time and practice.

CH Trevor's Organ Method, is wonderful and has some brilliant passage work to help train recalcitrant feet to behave. I'll trying seeing what I can find on imslp that's "out there" and post.

Don't be despondant ... progress on the organ is the most painful of any musical instrument due precisely to the fact that all body parts are involved.

 

[Contratrombone64]

Also take a look at the PDF I posted by Bach "Pedal Exercise". http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/4802-bachs-non-chorale-organ.html

 

[Soubasse]

What he said! ^^

I've played piano for 55 years (so I can't claim to be 39!)

That's okay, I've been playing organ for about 27 years which sadly means I can't be 21 anymore.

I suppose I actually hit C and G about 50% of the time without looking. But after working at this for nearly five months, shouldn't it be more like 90%? Maybe I'm just a klutz!

The other issue I have with pedals is that I may orientate towards C and G but lots of pieces don't start on C. Getting a bearing on where the first pedal note really is puzzles me.

Also, I understand that the feel and technique of organ playing is very different than those of piano playing. I am trying to develop that feel but it's hard to concentrate on both that and what my feet are doing. What does it take to get one's feet to instinctively "know" where they are? How long should it take to coordinate when the music has three different types of rhythms going. (Today my teacher put a Bach Chorale Prelude in front of me and I was quite intimidated by it.)

Personally, I think you're being a little hard on yourself. Regardless of the number of years of experience at piano, 5 months is still a bit early to be expecting things to be falling comfortably into place. You're probably also discovering something that many still take for granted (at least where I'm from) and that is; simply because you play the piano or any sort of keyboard, does not automatically mean that you're going to be able to easily settle into organ technique.

The short answer to most of your issues above is: practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice


oh yes, and some practice as well.




Also, practicing will help.


Think on the following. Playing piano for as long as you have, the most you've had to think about in regard to your feet is when to plant it down on a sustain pedal or an una corde pedal at the right time. Usually there's only 2 or 3 such pedals and not 30 - 32 of them (each producing a note) to worry about.

In regard to hunting for the right starting note on the pedals, (and you've most likely heard this already, but ...) be aware of the gaps between the "black" notes. It's the first port of call when you're feeling your way around. If you jam your foot between the black keys with the group of 3 to the right of the foot and the group of 2 to the left, you know that you're near the E and the F. Similarly if the group of 2 is to the right of the foot and the 3 to the left, then of course, you're near the B and the C. it's the same principle as playing the keyboard without looking at it (muscle memory and all that stuff).

Slowly and surely is usually the best way. It's very good that you have the chance to practice on a real organ too, as you can gain a full appreciation of the individual ranks and their interaction with one another. Patient persistence should see you through, so don't worry too much.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[UCG Musician]

OK, I'll try not be so hard on myself! FWIW, I have the opportunity to attend a week-long workshop sponsored by a local AGO chapter aimed at beginning adult organists. It's coming up in about a week and a half. This should also help the process. The program includes concerts by guest artists and faculty members, classes on technique, registration, organ-building, hymn and anthem accompaniment, daily lessons, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, visits to some large theater organs and exposure to quite a number of church organs (up to IV/94). I'll try to remember to report back on how it went, provided I survive!

 

[Krummhorn]

David and Matt couldn't have said it better, UCG.

I have been playing for over 50 years - both in church and as a recitalist - okay, I'm not "39" obviously, so I'll own up to actually being at the young age of 63. A great age as I now get the senior discounts most everywhere.

It does take time ... a long time ... to become proficient as an organist. I am my own worst critic ... I am very hard on myself because I know when I screwed up, and then take the time to fix it so it doesn't happen again. Even after playing for 50+ years, I still have lots of learning to do ... the day I stop learning is the day I stop breathing. I'll never know it all and will never master it all, either. I only began to really improvise about 10 years ago ... I am getting better at it, but not certainly to the point of publishing music, but it is another realm of organ playing that I can keep working at.

I think that pipe organ encounter will be of excellent help ... we have such a thing here, but for younger students sponsored by the A.G.O.

My dad always told me "Keep your socks up!" I took that to mean keep practicing to achieve your own personal goals ... don't try to be somebody else ... just be yourself and when you are happy with what you are doing, then the mission has been accomplished. At that point, you can then hone the experience and keep improving your talent.

 

[dll927]

One old trick on the pedals -- you may have noticed that the e-f and b-c naturals have an (admittedly small) space between the flat/sharp pedals. Unless you wear horribly wide shoes, the toe part will usually find those spaces and orient to the notes. But as mentioned already, it's largely a matter of practice to get to where you know just where to go. It can be done!!

When I took typing in high school, the typewriters had no letters on the keys. That was because you were expected to LEARN where the letters were. You can't spend all your time looking at organ pedals. (You're really not supposed to.)

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi UCG,

I'll tell you my story, as I started piano at 5 and finnished at 17 then went for pipe organ for some months and then pro with piano/synthesizer and all kinda keyboards. Now I'm 49.

I don't look at the keyboard when reading/studying at the piano and /or harpsi and I don't look at my feet when on my digital organ (now VPO). Usually close my eyes.... My transition from piano to organ was smooth because I wanted to play sooo bad !

I do not follow all those top techniques all friends posted, even if my English teacher insisted, because I always have the octaves in my mind, I see them without seeing... it's just a feeling. Of course I got the middle pedal C in a straight line between my legs and in a position where I can reach lowest C with my left foot and top with the right moving them bellow the knees only.

My piano teacher before lesson she taught me first to touch very gentle the keys to "ease them" and get the feel of them, then we talked about impressionism painting and then we proceeded to play and my organ teacher too, she insisted at first to take my shoes off to get the feel of the wooden pedals. It's a sense first, then the will to enjoy heavenly sounds, so easy mind is the key. Do not think !
When I'm thinkin' hardly on music I'm stopping playing completely.

I continue to play (and compose on) everything, piano, organ, synthesizers, Hammond, Clavecin, clavichord, Rhodes... all kinds of keyboard instruments, with pedals or not, sometimes best, sometimes horrible.... it depends on the mood and ...... pain. Pain (on soul) can be very creative, given that will not be over 3 red dots/lines because then, distortion send us into depression and despair.

So, my very humble talk : free your mind and just play and then enjoy... you got everything you need at 55, technique, mature thought, will to acomplish....

Ah, I forgot, and..... practice, yes, do that and after a while practice again ...

and please don't forget to .... practice.

All my best
Panos

 

[Corno Dolce]

"progress on the organ is the most painful of any musical instrument due precisely to the fact that all body parts are involved.[/QUOTE]


CT64,

BINGO!!! - I'm with you there, Braddah........

 

[Organiste]

Here are some tips from my own experience:

(1) Practice the right hand with pedals, the left hand with pedals, both hands alone, pedals alone. Do this for a long time without trying hands & feet together at all. If you can't do everything separately absolutely perfectly, how can you hope to combine them? And if you put everything together prematurely, you will just be frustrated. Don't rush it.

(2) Practice a piece, set the piece aside for a time (minutes or hours or days), and then pick it up again. What you've learned needs time to solidify in your mind. And you will have good days and bad days. If you're having a bad day and nothing seems to stick, maybe it's time for a break. Or maybe you need to play something simple and familiar for a bit: at least that way you're still playing, and it will help you feel better.

(3) Look and think ahead: be mentally preparing for the next notes. Just thinking this way can really help.

(4) Prepare physically: play a beat and then quickly move your hands/feet to the next notes, hold them in midair, and then strike them. Once you have practiced that, when you play without the pause your muscles will "aim" better.

(5) Your feet can't "know" where to go until they have enough experience getting there -- correctly. If you hit a wrong note, you are "learning" the error, even if you move to the correct one immediately. It is better to figure out how to get to the correct note and be certain about it, and to practice that.

(6) Cover your music with scribbles. There is nothing wrong with penciled notes to remind you how to play a piece correctly. I have notes like "think ahead," "edge of foot," "D major WITH F#," "slow down," "repeat sign ahead," arrows, commas, and slashes along with fingering and pedaling. The reason pedals are difficult is because it's hard for your brain to keep track of everything at once -- so help yourself out by writing some of it down.

 

[tom]

That last point from organiste is very important. Writing your thoughts down makes the thought more precise, and very often,the next day, you won't even have to read what you have written, it's somehow remembered because of the action of writing it down.

Good luck!

 

[Serassi1836]

I have played piano for 10 years and now I'm starting studying the pipe organ. I'm having organ exercises on Gradus ad Parnassum by Riccardo Remondi. My teacher advices me to play left hand + pedal then right hand+pedal then try to get the whole piece. Of course, I have found difficult how to use hands and feet together, at first I had difficult in reading the three staves properly (sometimes I played with the pedals left hand's notes and viceversa!) Luckily, my Remondi writes excercises only left hand+pedal and also only pedal so it's easier to make your feet go where they have to. I usually study the piece at first watching my feet but, practising, you can learn the movement you have to do to get the right note. I also think that practising and practising is the better choice.

 

[pb05]

Here are some tips from my own experience:

(1) Practice the right hand with pedals, the left hand with pedals, both hands alone, pedals alone. Do this for a long time without trying hands & feet together at all. If you can't do everything separately absolutely perfectly, how can you hope to combine them? And if you put everything together prematurely, you will just be frustrated. Don't rush it.

As an active organ student I can confirm that this point is crucial. You start with solos (exercises for feet only), then duos (right hand - feet, left hand - feet) and finally you go for the trios (two hands and feet). Actually I learned to play the pedals with the Peeters and Schouten method which is nothing different in principle to what I (and Organiste) just described. The books of these authors with such exercises that I used in the past are "Ars Organi" and "Duo's en Trio's voor Orgel" respectively.

The reason pedals are difficult is because it's hard for your brain to keep track of everything at once -- so help yourself out by writing some of it down.

This seems to be one face of the problem. According to my professor, the other difficulty is that the movements of the left hand fingers and the feet are controlled by the same brain centre. So, left hand and feet do not move independently and it is this combination that will cause the most long term problems. The bad news is that some people simply cannot work out this difficulty. The good news is that for most people, and with much practice and patience, left hand and feet will eventually disconnect.

Also learning to play the pedals blindly really helps to develop a solid technique.