Protests
- Thread starter southernparks
- Start date
southernparks
New member
southernparks
New member
what I tried to do is to reverse the sentence:
you can multiply the wealth by leave it in the hands of fewer people
I searched a bit about market concentration on google. the conclusion was that if you divide and spread the wealth to more people - then more people will have more money and the market should grow; if the market is growing the wealth can multiply itself
but if the market is too concentrated - only the big tycoons profit (like in Israel).
what I found out is that in Israel there's a situation of lack of workplaces. nearly half of the working-age population work in odd or part time jobs or rely on others (due to the market concentration). could it be the same problem in England? that there are not enough workplaces?
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
More people will have more than they had before individually but the total amount remains the samewhat I tried to do is to reverse the sentence:
you can multiply the wealth by leave it in the hands of fewer people
I searched a bit about market concentration on google. the conclusion was that if you divide and spread the wealth to more people - then more people will have more money and the market should grow; if the market is growing the wealth can multiply itself
Generally the big tycoon are those who know how to manipulate money they are very good at it and would get the best returns they are ruthless
I dont know if I am following you correctly are you saying that there are not enough jobs? If so this trend began in the 50s with Automation in the manufacturing sector and would apply to all so called civilised countries, manufacturers now use the cheapest labour they can find, at the moment it is China but that will soon change. I dont know what the answer is but we have been turned into a consumer society two cars each, four TVs, Two homes. Etc etc. not good
southernparks
New member
the total amount suppose to grow because the market should grow.
it's like a chain reaction:
1. the ones who hold the wealth use to buy companies and merge them. they limit the number of companies as well as the market competition. what they get is that the prices going high.
2. once it gets to a stage that only few companies control the market - they have interest to produce less products, to make the demand exceeds the supply.
this way the prices are growing + there's less job to do, so the boss doesn't have to employ so many workers.
3. if you put section 1 and 2 together, you get less companies, businesses and products and less commerce and services ---> less job and workplaces plus people get fired.
4. what usually happens in this kind of situation is that the boss take advantage of it and lower the salaries of employees.
5. when people earn less they also consume less, and less private consumption makes the entire market smaller (the small businesses harmed but the big ones profit).
if I take Israel as an example:
1. 10-15 rich families control the market. (the Israeli tycoons).
2. Israel is in 79 place in the world on price competition.. (few companies control the market).
3. there aren't enough jobs. the number of workplaces is 53.5% of the working-age population.
4. Israel have the lowest salaries among the 'western countries' OECD (with Turkey and Mexico).
5. the gap between the average income to the rich is 2nd biggest in OECD (2nd after USA).
6. the prices are high.
if you divide the wealth, separate the companies (or limit them), you should get the opposite: more companies, more competition and workplaces, lower prices, higher incomes and more private consumption.
more private consumption = demand for more commerce and services = reason for more companies and workplaces to exist.
Last edited:
southernparks
New member
yes. meanwhile it repeats what happened in Spain - few hundreds take over abandoned buildings, clean it and protest that no one use them. after few hours the police evacuate them and they search for the next house/building.
someone took pictures from there:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/activestills/6069597009/in/set-72157604362825235/
you can see it's still very delicate, video:
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/273/803.html
they put the signs "free building".
the protest is peaceful, but there are lots of controversy and dirt, at least that's what you get from the media. interests and stigmas playing a role too.
someone took pictures from there:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/activestills/6069597009/in/set-72157604362825235/
you can see it's still very delicate, video:
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/273/803.html
they put the signs "free building".
the protest is peaceful, but there are lots of controversy and dirt, at least that's what you get from the media. interests and stigmas playing a role too.
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Well this may be the case in Israel I really do not know but in my country which embraced the “Market” ideology in 1984 this certainly was not the case, we have seen our best manufactures move overseas to take advantage of the cheap labour (as I mentioned in my previous post) Now our unemployment is approx 5% and this is made up of those leaving school with no work qualifications, those that have no intention of ever working and a few genuine cases of those that are actively looking for work but without success
Yes most of this happens to some degree, we do have a widening gap between the haves and have nots and this is happening all over the world and is causing much concern but in NZ things such as TV, Cars, Sporting goods, electronics are cheaper than they have ever been to the extent that you do not repair these things now just replace. Milk, Butter, Meat etc is very expensive and it is produced in NZ crazy ?? we have to pay what ever the world market price is at the time.
You cannot limit the Market or stop one company buying out another company unless you introduce state control also the method you are advocating will not lower prices every one wants to make a profit but the ability to produce on a large scale (only available to large companies) gives the opportunity to lower prices
Yes but as I said they move to countries where there is cheap labour, would you work for $1 per Day? This labour cheap country is China at the moment so no local jobs are created. Now if you regulate the market by state control you will kill it.
I can feel your frustration and as the man said “There has to be a better way” perhaps more uprisings?? only joking
World unemployment figure taken from www
NZ 6.6
Aussie 4.9
Israel 5.8
UK 7.6
USA 9.2
China 4.1
Having had a look at your links I would assume you are one of these activists and I cannot condone or condemn your outlook, taking over an empty building is also illegal in my country and you would be removed smartly, can I ask what skills you have achieved that should place you in regular work ?
A couple of links I found regarding unemployment that you may find interesting.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/unemployment-rates-list-by-country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
Please note I do not mean to be provocative
teddy
Duckmeister
A new act over here allows local people or groups to buy state or local council owned properties that are vacant and not scheduled for any purpose. Whether this will be extended to privatly owned property is unknow but the goverment already has the power, in extreme circumstances, to compulsory purchase derelict properties. I believe certain services should be state owned i.e. gas, electric,water and these should not be owned by other countries. The state seems to be unable to run a cheap efficient transport system so these should be privately owned and non subsidised.
The unemployment figures you quote for BRITAIN may not be accurate Colin as ther are a lot of people claiming long term incapacity benifit who are really enemployed, or unemployable. This is changing as disabilaties are being re assessed. A teacher I know recently retired with bad knees, but still plays golf and digs his neighbours gardens for cash.
teddy
The unemployment figures you quote for BRITAIN may not be accurate Colin as ther are a lot of people claiming long term incapacity benifit who are really enemployed, or unemployable. This is changing as disabilaties are being re assessed. A teacher I know recently retired with bad knees, but still plays golf and digs his neighbours gardens for cash.
teddy
southernparks
New member
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
What brought all this on teddy? what if The Council does not want to sell ?
And if purchased by say a local group then what will be done? Will they be used to home the poor or start up a business? If a building is sound but unused then I can see some merit in this
Absolutely teddy all utilities should be state owned but be required to return a dividend to the Government.
We went that way, all unprofitable routes were terminated bad luck for those without their own transport but it did save the Gov heaps of money. Many years ago (the late eighties I think) the NZ Railway was sold to Wisconsin Rail and the result was a complete breakdown of the rail system it has since gone through several owners with no better results in fact the Government had to purchase the actual Railway lines and ground and have spent Zillions getting it back into a reasonable system it remains to be seen if they will get the rest of it operating well enough to return a small profit.
The UK, USA, NZ, Israel, Aussie figures on wiki were dated 2011
The China stats were 2010
How these are arrived at is another thing all together but when taken with stats from the other site I gave then a general picture emerges which places Israel as being pretty average. I don't know what Israel can do as I do not follow their politics but I suspect they are in the same position as the rest of us + a whacking great Military budget.
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Teddles - our P.M. is paying friggin' boat people $5K and sending them home. What message does that give to illegal-aliens?
southernparks
New member
Colin, the stats from wikipedia is the basic unemployment rates, I guess it stands for the number of people who sign up for dole in employment bureau.
there's another term called depth of unemployment, but I'm not sure what it is.
the largest part of the budget in Israel goes to the military, but the root of the problem isn't the distribution of the budget but the fact that anyway the budget of Israel is not big enough, because the entire market is small
there's another term called depth of unemployment, but I'm not sure what it is.
the largest part of the budget in Israel goes to the military, but the root of the problem isn't the distribution of the budget but the fact that anyway the budget of Israel is not big enough, because the entire market is small
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
A measly $5000
you tight Bastards :scold:
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
@ southernparks.
What is depth of unemployment ?? It may be called something else down here,
I can appreciate you concerns but you population is much greater than ours which is about 4 ½ million you just have to rely on help from sympathetic countries, and yes the Military budget must be horrendous but you cant do without it, I cant imagine what it must be like living with the daily threat of suicide bombs etc from the lunatic fringes. Are you able to leave the country for say a couple of years just to see the problem from an outside point of view, a lot of young Kiwis go overseas to work for a couple of years they call it their OE (overseas experience)
Do you think men will ever be able to live peaceably side by side ?? Personally I dont.
What is depth of unemployment ?? It may be called something else down here,
I can appreciate you concerns but you population is much greater than ours which is about 4 ½ million you just have to rely on help from sympathetic countries, and yes the Military budget must be horrendous but you cant do without it, I cant imagine what it must be like living with the daily threat of suicide bombs etc from the lunatic fringes. Are you able to leave the country for say a couple of years just to see the problem from an outside point of view, a lot of young Kiwis go overseas to work for a couple of years they call it their OE (overseas experience)
Do you think men will ever be able to live peaceably side by side ?? Personally I dont.
southernparks
New member
first, (like I said) I base all the information on what I read, especially on what the former ministry of finance accountant general (2003-2007) said in a lecture he gave about a week ago.
(I can explain why I trust him).
hopefully I understood well what he explained and the blame falls on him if there's any false information
no, unfortunately I live far from where the center of big things happen.
I was born in Tel Aviv and have lived there in the southern side, today I live in a town in north Israel.
I guess if I was closer I would have take a bigger part in the protest. I still might do something in the future.
no complaint on the police at all, they are doing their job. sometimes few people try to resist the evacuation and get arrested, but most people leave the building quitely.
you mean educational? I don't have college or university degree. I'm not there yet.
I must say that there are plenty of people with BA and MA who struggle to find a job or finish the month without a minus (there's a special section in one of the news websites dedicated to this kind of stories).
the situation in Israel is a bit different because most of people being sent to the army after highschool and spent a few years there. after they release, not everyone can rely on their parents to pay the tuition.
the ones who study usually work in 1-3 odd jobs at the same time, but they can't handle the rent.. so it's the same problem again.
what usually pisses me off regard to the protests is the masses of people who walk blindly after the goverment in a suit of patriotism and unliberalism; it affects me too.
I tried to translate a saying by Adam Smith from Hebrew (I didn't find it in English):
If you let all the players to compete freely without the government to intervene - you will get minimum poverty and maximum welfare, provided that all players are equal in their power.
And if they do not equal it would make a maximum poverty and minimum welfare.
that's what happens here, the players are not equal.
the government encourage this to happen with several ways:
1. by laws. they dismiss laws that should limit the market concentration and encourage equality.
2. by policy. if for example the government decided to privatize lands. instead of selling small land plots they sell several compounds together (that only rich people can afford buying).
so basically it's an oligarchy.
I'm not fully understand, you mean that even though the manufactures left to China there are still enough jobs for everyone?
why it will kill it?
I think that if instead of 3 companies in each sector there will be 10 - then the price competition between them should turn the prices lower.
you can't let one company to controll 33% of the entire sector. and you won't kill the company if you force them to sell some of what they have to others.
example:
if one company holds 50 supermarkets - force them to sell 30 supermarkets to other people. if they refuse to sell - impose high taxes on them until it won't be profitable.
it's impposible to concentrate so much power in one place, there should be a limit. let's say (just for example) that each company can reach to maximum of 10% of each sector market.
*(the tycoons here don't hold just one sector or two - they hold dozens of different companies from diffrent sectors).
you need to break the monopolies.
4.1 from China it's a lot
I wrote in one of my previous posts here that the unemployment rate in Israel is 5.7% (wiki missed a bit :grin
. that's what the government trying to emphasis in the media. this is the basic unemployment rate (I hope it's the same term in English).
but in addition to that, the accountant general mentioned that the number of workplaces in Israel is 53.5% of the working-age population.
it's something related to what he refered as "depth of unemployment".
If I understand well (and I'm not sure I do) the other 46.5% of the working-age population work in odd or part time jobs or rely on all kinds of other allowances (not dole).
Last edited: