Protests

[teddy]

David.....I'll be right over...

Colin A lot of the people who are registered long term sick should be registered as unemployed which would make the unemployment figures higher. This was encouraged by the last goverment to make the unemployment figures look better.
As far as the purchase of property from goverment or local council is concerned, there is a right to buy unless the council can prove that they are going to use the property for some good purpose.
As far as companies having too much influence that is why the MONOPOLIES COMMISSION was set up over here. If a takeover was deemed to be against the public interest, it was bloocked. Does not always work but it has some influence on the markets.

teddy

 

[JHC]

@teddy Re property purchase from local bodiesI was curious as I would have imagined that this was the case anyway.
We also have a Monopolies Commission (at what cost?) but that does nothing to stop price fixing it does make it harder and it did have a go at the oil companies but they couldn't give a toss.

 

[southernparks]

@southparks You raise so many interesting points that I will have to get back to you, I am enjoying our chat and although there is a big age gap I am sure you will excuse my old and feeble mind if it stutters along the way, hooray. Colin :grin:

I much enjoy chatting here, waiting for your reply

 

[JHC]

I much enjoy chatting here, waiting for your reply

You have PM.................

 

[Corno Dolce]

Methinks that they all doth protest too much........

 

[JHC]

first, (like I said) I base all the information on what I read, especially on what the former ministry of finance accountant general (2003-2007) said in a lecture he gave about a week ago.
(I can explain why I trust him).
hopefully I understood well what he explained and the blame falls on him if there's any false information



no, unfortunately I live far from where the center of big things happen.
I was born in Tel Aviv and have lived there in the southern side, today I live in a town in north Israel.
I guess if I was closer I would have take a bigger part in the protest. I still might do something in the future.

What are the actual protests about is it accommodation or jobs?

no complaint on the police at all, they are doing their job. sometimes few people try to resist the evacuation and get arrested, but most people leave the building quitely.




you mean educational? I don't have college or university degree. I'm not there yet.
I must say that there are plenty of people with BA and MA who struggle to find a job or finish the month without a minus (there's a special section in one of the news websites dedicated to this kind of stories).

So your people with degrees are very low paid what about tradesmen?

the situation in Israel is a bit different because most of people being sent to the army after highschool and spent a few years there. after they release, not everyone can rely on their parents to pay the tuition.
the ones who study usually work in 1-3 odd jobs at the same time, but they can't handle the rent.. so it's the same problem again.

After you military service do you have to pay for any further education ??

Do you have to pay to go to University or is it free if you pass an exam for entrance

what usually pisses me off regard to the protests is the masses of people who walk blindly after the goverment in a suit of patriotism and unliberalism; it affects me too.




I tried to translate a saying by Adam Smith from Hebrew (I didn't find it in English):
If you let all the players to compete freely without the government to intervene - you will get minimum poverty and maximum welfare, provided that all players are equal in their power.
And if they do not equal it would make a maximum poverty and minimum welfare.

that's what happens here, the players are not equal.
the government encourage this to happen with several ways:
1. by laws. they dismiss laws that should limit the market concentration and encourage equality.
2. by policy. if for example the government decided to privatize lands. instead of selling small land plots they sell several compounds together (that only rich people can afford buying).

so basically it's an oligarchy.

In any system of government you will get the have and have nots as I said before “there has to be a better way” but finding that utopia is the hard thing, even in nature there are those at the top and those at the bottom Communism, capitalism, the free market have not produced this IMO sure they all have their good and bad points.

I don’t know the answer. I know what I would suggest but that would be based on my experiences and probably not fair to everyone.

I'm not fully understand, you mean that even though the manufactures left to China there are still enough jobs for everyone?

The jobs that went to China are lost for a long while but these people that find them selves out of work due to no fault of their own seem to get other employment but must be prepared to do anything. They have the work ethic.

why it will kill it?

The Market cannot exist with controls and limitations imposed by government if this happens then it is not “The Free Market”

I think that if instead of 3 companies in each sector there will be 10 - then the price competition between them should turn the prices lower.

you can't let one company to controll 33% of the entire sector. and you won't kill the company if you force them to sell some of what they have to others.
example:
if one company holds 50 supermarkets - force them to sell 30 supermarkets to other people. if they refuse to sell - impose high taxes on them until it won't be profitable.

it's impposible to concentrate so much power in one place, there should be a limit. let's say (just for example) that each company can reach to maximum of 10% of each sector market.

*(the tycoons here don't hold just one sector or two - they hold dozens of different companies from diffrent sectors).

you need to break the monopolies.

I hear what you are saying but IMO its too late the Genie is out of the bottle so to speak. The Free Market is an ideology born of Capitalism and it looks after itself.

4.1 from China it's a lot

I wrote in one of my previous posts here that the unemployment rate in Israel is 5.7% (wiki missed a bit :grin. that's what the government trying to emphasis in the media.
this is the basic unemployment rate (I hope it's the same term in English).


but in addition to that, the accountant general mentioned that the number of workplaces in Israel is 53.5% of the working-age population.
it's something related to what he refered as "depth of unemployment".

If I understand well (and I'm not sure I do) the other 46.5% of the working-age population work in odd or part time jobs or rely on all kinds of other allowances (not dole).

Yes 4.1% unemployment for china is a lot of people but not against their total population. I would have thought that if the Unemployment stats are to be of any value they should all be compiled with the same criteria if that is not the case then they mean very little if you work 20hrs a week in NZ you are not classed as unemployed but to my way of thinking that should be 'in full employment' = 40hrs/week in NZ which is our normal working week.

 

[southernparks]

What are the actual protests about is it accommodation or jobs?

it's all together.
background section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israeli_housing_protests#Background

I remember the wave of protests started (mainly) after the high price of cottage cheese (the prices rose in 50%) and with fuel prices. but it's the entire living expense.
before that, there were strikes of social workers, doctors (ongoing), teachers etc about the low salaries and conditions.

according to my explanation in a previous post it's all connected - jobs and prices.


in "the cottage cheese boycott" value (wiki), in background you can see that the milk products company "Tnuva" holds 70% of the market and the rest divided by 2 companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_cottage_cheese_boycott

So your people with degrees are very low paid what about tradesmen?

the salaries are low anyway. like Mexico and Turkey.
I don't know what exactly tradesmen mean (?). but if they work as employees then they probably have low incomes. and if they are self employed then they probably compete with a tycoon.

After you military service do you have to pay for any further education ??

yes.
and a soldier between age 18-21 (mandatory Regular service) earns about 100$ a month.

Do you have to pay to go to University or is it free if you pass an exam for entrance

you always pay , I believe there are scholarships in some cases.

In any system of government you will get the have and have nots as I said before “there has to be a better way” but finding that utopia is the hard thing, even in nature there are those at the top and those at the bottom Communism, capitalism, the free market have not produced this IMO sure they all have their good and bad points.

according to the former accountant general, it's not one perspective against another, not capitalism against communism, you need to find the right balance in every situation.

I don’t know the answer. I know what I would suggest but that would be based on my experiences and probably not fair to everyone.

what do you suggest?



btw I found the lecture of the accountant general on Youtube, and I asked the college who upload it to add English closed captions, but I'm not sure they will.
he gave 6 economical steps that should change something, I hope the protesters will listen to what he is saying and follow it.

 

[southernparks]

some activists block roads with folk dancing :grin::
http://youtu.be/uNO1RYFL8LI


tomorrow should be a big demonstration throughout the cities.


someone here decided to use a mall ad to call the people to join the demonstration:
http://youtu.be/z4wvjju6sAQ

the original was "H&M - Herzliya (city) is about to change! the opening on August 18, the 'seven stars' mall"

after the change: "The country is about to change! it's in our hands! the demonstration on September 3"

 

[JHC]

according to the former accountant general, it's not one perspective against another, not capitalism against communism, you need to find the right balance in every situation.

That is the point I am making "there has to be a better way"

what do you suggest?

We NZ would keep the Proportional representation system of voting but with a few tweaks here and there

There would be Binding citizen initiated referendum. At the moment we have referendums but they are not binding, now if made binding all relevant facts would have to be given to enable the people to make an educated vote.

No person that is able to work would be paid to sit on their Arse all day, there is plenty of thing to be done in NZ

We have what is laughingly called the DPB [dependent person benefit] this applies to all women with a child but no husband to be the provider, now this goes on from 1 child to 2 to 3 to 4 etc and with each child they get more money, it becomes a way of life. This would stop, either the Farther or the girls family would be the provider.

All Utilities Power, Water, etc would be state owned

that’s for starters

Oh I would like to see an end to collapsed finance companies being bailed out by the tax payers

 

[JHC]

The 'Dependent person benefit' in the above should post should read 'The Domestic purpose benefit' we have so many it gets confusing at times
Your protests have just been on our News. so the whole world knows

 

[southernparks]

Interesting.

So if there's an issue that concerns the public they propose a referendum?
how does the whole process go?

Your protests have just been on our News. so the whole world knows

they said good things?

yes, yesterday was a large demonstration, really impressive speeches there too. some say it was 410,000 people on the streets some say 450,000 and more.

 

[JHC]

This is what I think would happen:
A petition outlining the details of the proposed referendum has to achieve a minimum amount of signatures and if successful the referendum is drawn up and then voted upon and if a certain amount of votes are cast in favour it becomes Law. the figures are set high to avoid silly willies.

 

[southernparks]

Sounds good

!!