Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Matt - I'm afraid the bagpipe and en chamde are both horrific (and I've got Scottish blood so shame on me).
-
Welcome to the Pipe Organ Forum! This is a part of the open community Magle International Music Forums focused on pipe organs (also known as "church organs"), organists, organ music and related topics.
This forum is intended to be a friendly place where technically advanced organists and beginners (or even non-organists) can feel comfortable having discussions and asking questions. We learn by reading and asking questions, and it is hoped that the beginners (or non-organists) will feel free to ask even the simplest questions, and that the more advanced organists will patiently answer these questions. On the other hand, we encourage complex, technical discussions of technique, music, organ-building, etc. The opinions and observations of a diverse group of people from around the world should prove to be interesting and stimulating to all of us.
As pipe organ discussions can sometimes become lively, it should be pointed out that this is an open forum. Statements made here are the opinion of the poster, and not necessarily that of the forum itself, its administrator, or its moderators.
In order to post a new topic - or reply to existing ones - you may join and become a member by clicking on Register New User. It's completely free and only requires a working email address (in order to confirm your registration - it will never be given away!). We strive to make this a friendly and informative forum for anyone interested in pipe organs and organ music.
(Note: If you wish to link to and promote your own website please read this thread first.)
Many kind regards
Frederik Magle
Administrator
Krummhorn
Co-Administrator
Trumpet En Chamade
- Thread starter AllanP
- Start date
smilingvox
New member
Hey David. Seems that neither of us consider a horizontal trumpet as a first choice. Of the many organs I've heard, either in person or recording, I've heard many of these which I've cringed or laughed at, and have thought to be inappropriate in their settings (esp. in acoustically dead spaces). One example I never cared for are the Boisseau Chamades at Notre Dame de Paris. At times, they're like nails on the chalkboard.
Of the few chamades I do like, my favorite by a long shot is the State Trumpet at St. John the Divine, NY. Another is the one at St. Thomas' Episcopal, Fifth Av., also in NY.
What makes the Horizontal Trumpet seem louder than a Trumpet isn't necessarily so much in the decibel level, but the direction in which the sound is directed. It's also the fact that there is a larger number of harmonics heard from a trumpet pipe pointed towards the listener than one that is pointed at the ceiling. Both of these pipes could be identical. The same make, same pitch, same wind pressure, same voicing....
Even a moderately loud trumpet mounted horizontally can have an impact with the additional harmonics heard as a result of this positioning. Randy Gilberti, former curator of the organs at St. John the Divine, told me one day that the word chamade is French for startle.
Imo, caution should be used in including a chamade in a design.
Tom
Of the few chamades I do like, my favorite by a long shot is the State Trumpet at St. John the Divine, NY. Another is the one at St. Thomas' Episcopal, Fifth Av., also in NY.
What makes the Horizontal Trumpet seem louder than a Trumpet isn't necessarily so much in the decibel level, but the direction in which the sound is directed. It's also the fact that there is a larger number of harmonics heard from a trumpet pipe pointed towards the listener than one that is pointed at the ceiling. Both of these pipes could be identical. The same make, same pitch, same wind pressure, same voicing....
Even a moderately loud trumpet mounted horizontally can have an impact with the additional harmonics heard as a result of this positioning. Randy Gilberti, former curator of the organs at St. John the Divine, told me one day that the word chamade is French for startle.
Imo, caution should be used in including a chamade in a design.
Tom
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Tom, my friend. I used to own a CD featuring the gorgeous organ of St. John the Devine. From memory it started with an en chamade track. Thunderous, really, and almost listenable...
Quite interestingly, the Sydney Town Hall's grand organ (which is monsterous), has no chamade stops - very odd. Though the noisy trumpets bring tears to the eyes, for sure.
Quite interestingly, the Sydney Town Hall's grand organ (which is monsterous), has no chamade stops - very odd. Though the noisy trumpets bring tears to the eyes, for sure.
GoneBaroque
New member
David, I have the same recording, I belive. But, on the one I have by Michael Murray the first piece is John Dunstable's Agincourt Hymn and the second track is Soler's The Emperors Fanfare which features the enchamade trumpet. I would think that the incluion or exclusion of stops is the choice of the Tonal Designer.
Regarding St. Thomas Church, mentioned in the smilingvox post, I have read that after the renovation of the church as a result of damage by the 911 attacks the organ was replaced by a Marshall and Ogletree digital. Can anyone confirm or deny this.
Regarding St. Thomas Church, mentioned in the smilingvox post, I have read that after the renovation of the church as a result of damage by the 911 attacks the organ was replaced by a Marshall and Ogletree digital. Can anyone confirm or deny this.
smilingvox
New member
The Agincourt Hymn came to mind in David's response to my last. I have this CD, in fact, it's the first CD I ever purchased. About the Soler: Michael used the Solo's Tuba Major, not the State Trumpet.
Sorry, GoneBaroque, hate to correct you a 2nd time, but it's Trinity Wall Street that received the Marshall & Ogletree after the attacks. St. Thomas' is in Midtown, in the 50s by Rockefeller Center.
David. About Sydney Town Hall... Sure, there's no horizontal trumpet, but the Solo tubas, which are hooded (as are most English chorus reeds of that period) and large-scaled, still give this organ a lot of kick. Imo, this organ is fine the way it is.
Sorry, GoneBaroque, hate to correct you a 2nd time, but it's Trinity Wall Street that received the Marshall & Ogletree after the attacks. St. Thomas' is in Midtown, in the 50s by Rockefeller Center.
David. About Sydney Town Hall... Sure, there's no horizontal trumpet, but the Solo tubas, which are hooded (as are most English chorus reeds of that period) and large-scaled, still give this organ a lot of kick. Imo, this organ is fine the way it is.
GoneBaroque
New member
@smilingvox - Don't worry about it. I was working from memory which seems to have been faulty. Another sign of old age! As they say the good thing about dementia is that you meet new people every day.
Corno Dolce
Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Well, I hate to break it to you, but those horizontal trumpets at St. Sulpice are mounted on top of the case, not inside the case...
smilingvox
New member
Most of these pipes (St. Sulpice) are hooded, but in going with the literal meaning of chamade, reeds don't have to be 100% horizontal to startle somebody.
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
@smilingvox -you are spot on there. In fact, there's a particularly noisy rank of reeds inside Sydney Town Hall's monster that are absolutely terrifying.
aross30
New member
Indeed... Here is a little gallery. If you scroll about 3/4 of the way down, you will see the "chamade" which is sort of in that grey-area between hooded and chamade since a great deal of the resonator is horizontal.
http://www.stsulpice.com/Images/photos_jan08/index_photos.html
smilingvox
New member
Thanks, aross30, for sharing the pics (and welcome to the forum). I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates them. Found the chamade pics, and no, I guess all the pipes are hooded. I was wrong. <shrug>
I walked into St.-Sulpice during a mass one morning back in 1983. I remember the organ being played softly, probably during Communion. The 32' Principal-basse was used. I'd love to go back. I have a number of CDs of this organ.
I walked into St.-Sulpice during a mass one morning back in 1983. I remember the organ being played softly, probably during Communion. The 32' Principal-basse was used. I'd love to go back. I have a number of CDs of this organ.
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
hello smilingvox, my friend - I also adore the soft purrrrrr that vibrates your entire being that is the 32' subbass, I assume the 32' Principal-basse is rather more "there", yes?
smilingvox
New member
Assuming that the Subbass is stopped (there are examples of open subbasses), only odd-numbered partials are heard, whereas both odd and even are heard from open flues, so theoretically the Principal-basse would have more power. Another thing is that sound waves from an open pipe come not only from the mouth, but from the top of the pipe, too.
Corno Dolce
Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
A chamade doesn't necessarily need to be an aggressive and hair-raising noise generator. On low wind pressure it adds timbre.
Soubasse
New member
EVERYTHING about the S. Sulpice instrument is more "there" !!!
I agree with Corno about a well-rounded chamade - it should be able to blend as well as cause mild concern as to whether you're going to be able to keep your hair. The instrument that I used in the recording of the Pärt Annum per annum that I posted here:http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/11010-your-local-pipe-organ-2.html#post108640 has a notable set of Trompette en chamades which I do use during the last few blasts of the closing chord (just past the 8 minute mark if you listen to the recording). It actually sounds louder in the recording than it did from the console.