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- Thread starter bonh-101
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acc
Member
Re: 32\',64\'?
Hi Gareth,
No, stops aren't rests.
Imagine the simplest organ possible: one manual(=keyboard), and one pipe for each key. Usually, an organ manual starts at the c two octaves below middle c (and goes up to between two and three octaves above middle c, so the compass is between four and five octaves).
The lowest c has a frequency of approx. 65Hz (assuming a=440Hz), so the laws of physics tell you that its pipe must have a height of approx. 8 feet. If you align all the pipes, they get of course smaller and smaller as you go up the scale, like a pan flute. This array of pipes is called a stop (well, I really should say "rank", but forget about that for the moment), and one then speaks of an 8' stop, referring to the height of its largest pipe.
Now organs usually have not one, but several stops (i.e. several pipes for each key). The pipes of different stops may differ in shape (influencing the colour of the sound) or in size (changing the pitch), or both. For example, if the pipes of the previous 8' stop are aligned in front of you, one pipe for each key, you may imagine a second array of pipes behind the first, with each pipe having half the length (and thus sounding an octave higher) of that in front of it. So you now have an 8' stop and a 4' stop.
Organs then have a mechanism allowing the player to let the wind flow into each stop separately, via drawknobs next to the manual, one knob for each stop: pull it and the pipes of the corresponding stop will sound as soon as you press the keys; push it back in and the pipes will remain silent.
Press the middle c key and hold it down: you don't hear anything as long as you haven't pulled any stops. Now pull the 8' stop: you'll hear a middle c. Push the 8' stop back and pull the 4' stop: you'll hear the c one octave above middle c. Pull both stops, and you'll hear both.
In this example, you should not, however, think of the 4' stop as giving the means to play parallel octaves in a Liszt-like manner: its purpose is rather to artificially add harmonics to the 8' stop. You may likewise have an 2'2/3 stop, a 2' stop, a 1'3/5 stop, etc. (adding 3rd, 4th, 5th harmonics, respectively: 2 2/3=8/3, 2=8/4, 1 3/5=8/5). You can then use these stop in any combination you see fit (of course, the 8' stop, sounding at the normal pitch, should always be drawn, except maybe for very special effects).
As I said before, you may also have several stops at the same pitch, with pipes of different shapes. The main parameter is the ratio diameter/length: if the diameter increases, the sound becomres softer, more flute-like. The material may change: the "main" stops have round metal pipes, but some stops have square wooden pipes. Another variation is that some stops have pipes that are closed at the top. There are also reed stops, where the sound is not produced by air vibrating in the pipe (like in a flute), but by a reed (like in a clarinet, or like your lips when playing the
), so that's an entirely different family of stops altogether.
Most organs also have mixtures (in another post, you asked about those, too). A mixture is one stop having several pipes for each key, each pipe giving a harmonic for the corresponding pipe of the 8' stop. For example, a mixture may be a combination of a 2'2/3, a 2', and a 1'1/3 stop (giving 3rd, 4th and 6th harmonics). Each of these three individual arrays of pipes is then called a rank of the mixture, and one talks about a 3-rank mixture.
So why have only one drawknob for all the ranks of a mixture at once, and not one knob for each rank individually, to add more possible combinations? Well, most of the time, the harmonics given by a mixture will change as you go up the scale. For example, a four-rank mixture may give the 6th, 8th, 12th, and 16th harmonics at the lowest c, but at some "break" point replace the 16th harmonic by a 4th harmonic, then replace the 12th harmonic by a 3rd harmonic at a second "break" point, etc. Thus, a mixture is really more complicated than just a bunch of stops aligned in parallel.
You also asked about "great". Well, as you probably have noticed, most (larger) organs have not one, but several manuals. Each manual then has its own collection of stops. Usually, one manual is the "main" manual, called Great in English, Grand-Orgue in French, and Hauptwerk in German.
Hi Gareth,
No, stops aren't rests.
Imagine the simplest organ possible: one manual(=keyboard), and one pipe for each key. Usually, an organ manual starts at the c two octaves below middle c (and goes up to between two and three octaves above middle c, so the compass is between four and five octaves).
The lowest c has a frequency of approx. 65Hz (assuming a=440Hz), so the laws of physics tell you that its pipe must have a height of approx. 8 feet. If you align all the pipes, they get of course smaller and smaller as you go up the scale, like a pan flute. This array of pipes is called a stop (well, I really should say "rank", but forget about that for the moment), and one then speaks of an 8' stop, referring to the height of its largest pipe.
Now organs usually have not one, but several stops (i.e. several pipes for each key). The pipes of different stops may differ in shape (influencing the colour of the sound) or in size (changing the pitch), or both. For example, if the pipes of the previous 8' stop are aligned in front of you, one pipe for each key, you may imagine a second array of pipes behind the first, with each pipe having half the length (and thus sounding an octave higher) of that in front of it. So you now have an 8' stop and a 4' stop.
Organs then have a mechanism allowing the player to let the wind flow into each stop separately, via drawknobs next to the manual, one knob for each stop: pull it and the pipes of the corresponding stop will sound as soon as you press the keys; push it back in and the pipes will remain silent.
Press the middle c key and hold it down: you don't hear anything as long as you haven't pulled any stops. Now pull the 8' stop: you'll hear a middle c. Push the 8' stop back and pull the 4' stop: you'll hear the c one octave above middle c. Pull both stops, and you'll hear both.
In this example, you should not, however, think of the 4' stop as giving the means to play parallel octaves in a Liszt-like manner: its purpose is rather to artificially add harmonics to the 8' stop. You may likewise have an 2'2/3 stop, a 2' stop, a 1'3/5 stop, etc. (adding 3rd, 4th, 5th harmonics, respectively: 2 2/3=8/3, 2=8/4, 1 3/5=8/5). You can then use these stop in any combination you see fit (of course, the 8' stop, sounding at the normal pitch, should always be drawn, except maybe for very special effects).
As I said before, you may also have several stops at the same pitch, with pipes of different shapes. The main parameter is the ratio diameter/length: if the diameter increases, the sound becomres softer, more flute-like. The material may change: the "main" stops have round metal pipes, but some stops have square wooden pipes. Another variation is that some stops have pipes that are closed at the top. There are also reed stops, where the sound is not produced by air vibrating in the pipe (like in a flute), but by a reed (like in a clarinet, or like your lips when playing the
Most organs also have mixtures (in another post, you asked about those, too). A mixture is one stop having several pipes for each key, each pipe giving a harmonic for the corresponding pipe of the 8' stop. For example, a mixture may be a combination of a 2'2/3, a 2', and a 1'1/3 stop (giving 3rd, 4th and 6th harmonics). Each of these three individual arrays of pipes is then called a rank of the mixture, and one talks about a 3-rank mixture.
So why have only one drawknob for all the ranks of a mixture at once, and not one knob for each rank individually, to add more possible combinations? Well, most of the time, the harmonics given by a mixture will change as you go up the scale. For example, a four-rank mixture may give the 6th, 8th, 12th, and 16th harmonics at the lowest c, but at some "break" point replace the 16th harmonic by a 4th harmonic, then replace the 12th harmonic by a 3rd harmonic at a second "break" point, etc. Thus, a mixture is really more complicated than just a bunch of stops aligned in parallel.
You also asked about "great". Well, as you probably have noticed, most (larger) organs have not one, but several manuals. Each manual then has its own collection of stops. Usually, one manual is the "main" manual, called Great in English, Grand-Orgue in French, and Hauptwerk in German.
acc
Member
Re: 32\',64\'?
Exactly. And the pedal is just another keyboard, with keys that are much larger, because feet are bigger than fingers (this also forces the pedal to have a smaller compass, usually between two and two and a half octaves).
So a two-manual-plus-pedal organ is really three organs-in-one.
Bigger does not always mean more beautiful, but the simple fact that there are more than one manual can be exploited in several ways.
<ul type="square">[*]The two hands can play on two different manuals. The quintessential example here are Bach's trio sonatas, with one voice for the right hand, one for the left, and one for the feet. Careful selection of different stop combinations for different manuals contributes to a greater independence of the three voices.
[*]You can alternate between manuals, when the music alternates between passages of contrasting "moods", or to obtain echo effects.
[*]Spatial effects can be obtained, especially when the pipes of different manuals are contained in different organ cases (for example, on baroque organs, it is quite common to have a separate organ case behind the player, connected to the first manual).
[*]It is often possible to couple one manual to another. This is a mechanism by which pressing the keys of the lower of the two manuals also push down the corresponding keys on the upper manual. In the romantic repertoire, coupling becomes essential: suppose you've got three manuals and you couple III to II, III to I, and II to I. Then by playing first on III, then on II, then on I, you really add more stops at each change of manuals, hence a "stepwise crescendo" not unlike similar passages in orchestral music when more and more instruments come into play.
[/list]
Of course, when confronted with such a wealth of possibilities, it is easy to get carried away and try all sorts of crazy things, changing registration every five seconds ("registration" means "choice of stops and manuals"). An organist with good taste resists such temptations and only changes registration at appropriate places. It is perfectly all right to play, say, a Bach fugue from start to finish without any stop changes. If the fugue has a clearly defined divertimento in the middle, it may be appropriate to switch to manual II (with a lighter registration), then go back to manual I for the re-exposition.
In short: your registration should always be subordinate to the musical structure of the work itself.
Exactly. And the pedal is just another keyboard, with keys that are much larger, because feet are bigger than fingers (this also forces the pedal to have a smaller compass, usually between two and two and a half octaves).
So a two-manual-plus-pedal organ is really three organs-in-one.
Bigger does not always mean more beautiful, but the simple fact that there are more than one manual can be exploited in several ways.
<ul type="square">[*]The two hands can play on two different manuals. The quintessential example here are Bach's trio sonatas, with one voice for the right hand, one for the left, and one for the feet. Careful selection of different stop combinations for different manuals contributes to a greater independence of the three voices.
[*]You can alternate between manuals, when the music alternates between passages of contrasting "moods", or to obtain echo effects.
[*]Spatial effects can be obtained, especially when the pipes of different manuals are contained in different organ cases (for example, on baroque organs, it is quite common to have a separate organ case behind the player, connected to the first manual).
[*]It is often possible to couple one manual to another. This is a mechanism by which pressing the keys of the lower of the two manuals also push down the corresponding keys on the upper manual. In the romantic repertoire, coupling becomes essential: suppose you've got three manuals and you couple III to II, III to I, and II to I. Then by playing first on III, then on II, then on I, you really add more stops at each change of manuals, hence a "stepwise crescendo" not unlike similar passages in orchestral music when more and more instruments come into play.
[/list]
Of course, when confronted with such a wealth of possibilities, it is easy to get carried away and try all sorts of crazy things, changing registration every five seconds ("registration" means "choice of stops and manuals"). An organist with good taste resists such temptations and only changes registration at appropriate places. It is perfectly all right to play, say, a Bach fugue from start to finish without any stop changes. If the fugue has a clearly defined divertimento in the middle, it may be appropriate to switch to manual II (with a lighter registration), then go back to manual I for the re-exposition.
In short: your registration should always be subordinate to the musical structure of the work itself.
bonh-101
New member
Registration
Changing the registration was difficult at first(I couldn't change them fast enough, by the time I changed it, I lost my spot in the piece.) That is until I started using pistons(The little white buttons under the manuals, programmed preset stops "registrations" same as the "toe studs" the big knobs above and sometimes around the pedal board. In which a music teacher at my high school mislead me(A few weeks ago) by telling me those were the stops!)-Did I explain this correctly?
I found out later that they are the same as the pistons basically.
Those made it so much easier for me!
Changing the registration was difficult at first(I couldn't change them fast enough, by the time I changed it, I lost my spot in the piece.) That is until I started using pistons(The little white buttons under the manuals, programmed preset stops "registrations" same as the "toe studs" the big knobs above and sometimes around the pedal board. In which a music teacher at my high school mislead me(A few weeks ago) by telling me those were the stops!)-Did I explain this correctly?
I found out later that they are the same as the pistons basically.
Those made it so much easier for me!
giovannimusica
Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Re: 32\',64\'?
Hi Gareth,
Glad I could help - It certainly seems like there is much to learn about the Organ and there is but oh how interesting the possibilities are!
Open this link for an interesting instrument: Wanamaker Organ
Cheers,
Giovanni
Hi Gareth,
Glad I could help - It certainly seems like there is much to learn about the Organ and there is but oh how interesting the possibilities are!
Open this link for an interesting instrument: Wanamaker Organ
Cheers,
Giovanni
bonh-101
New member
Re: Registration
Here is a list of what I know so far-
If there is something incorrect in here please tell me because I belive the motto ( beware of false knowledge, for it is worse than ignorance itself):
:Manuals:- The keyboards named by their division in stops:
Great Organ= The main division of the organ, has some of the most powerful stops.
Swell Organ= The second division, Pipes inclosed in Swell box that has shutters to open or closed by the means of a swell pedal.
Choir Organ= The third division, has alot of the softer sounding stops for vocal accompaniment usually.often placed under the Great manual because of the location of the pipes for that division(explained by giovannimusica and acc earlier in this thread.)
Solo Organ= The fourth division, I'm actually not so sure about this division...
Some other divisions are the Echo Organ and Fanfare Organ...
:Stops:- a stop is a set of pipes in which the pipe organ works on. Different sizes cause different octaves 8' being the foundation size for the manuals, 16' being the foundation size for the pedalboard. At least one foundation stops needs to be drawn( Except if the registration calls for different than this...) and a rule I learned very quickly: don't use more stops if a few is all you need (don't draw more if it isn't needed).
there are mutation stops as well- if x=stop size (x 3/5')= seventeenth and (x 2/3')= Twelfth or maybe I have this backwards....
ipes:
there are families of pipes-
A) Flues:
the pipes in which air hits the mouth the pipe and spliting at the top of the mouth vibrating the air column.
the flue families-
Diapason(or Principal):
Diapason,Principal,Octave,Twelfth,Fifteenth,(Ans some Mixtures)
(I'll write more next time, I don't have alot of time..)
I'll write and continue this abit later...
Derrick(aka bonh-101)
Here is a list of what I know so far-
If there is something incorrect in here please tell me because I belive the motto ( beware of false knowledge, for it is worse than ignorance itself):
:Manuals:- The keyboards named by their division in stops:
Great Organ= The main division of the organ, has some of the most powerful stops.
Swell Organ= The second division, Pipes inclosed in Swell box that has shutters to open or closed by the means of a swell pedal.
Choir Organ= The third division, has alot of the softer sounding stops for vocal accompaniment usually.often placed under the Great manual because of the location of the pipes for that division(explained by giovannimusica and acc earlier in this thread.)
Solo Organ= The fourth division, I'm actually not so sure about this division...
Some other divisions are the Echo Organ and Fanfare Organ...
:Stops:- a stop is a set of pipes in which the pipe organ works on. Different sizes cause different octaves 8' being the foundation size for the manuals, 16' being the foundation size for the pedalboard. At least one foundation stops needs to be drawn( Except if the registration calls for different than this...) and a rule I learned very quickly: don't use more stops if a few is all you need (don't draw more if it isn't needed).
there are mutation stops as well- if x=stop size (x 3/5')= seventeenth and (x 2/3')= Twelfth or maybe I have this backwards....
ipes:there are families of pipes-
A) Flues:
the pipes in which air hits the mouth the pipe and spliting at the top of the mouth vibrating the air column.
the flue families-
Diapason(or Principal):
Diapason,Principal,Octave,Twelfth,Fifteenth,(Ans some Mixtures)
(I'll write more next time, I don't have alot of time..)
I'll write and continue this abit later...
Derrick(aka bonh-101)
acc
Member
Re: Registration
Hi bonh-101,
What you say is mostly correct. Just two comments.
1) Swell being second and Choir third depends on the type of instruments. For example, in French and German romantic instruments, Choir tends to be second.
2) Mutations produce harmonics, i.e. sound whose frequency is a multiple of the frequency of the fundamental sound. If you multiply frequency by 2, the pitch goes up an octave, 3 gives a twelfth, 4 a fifteenth (i.e. two octaves), 5 a seventeenth, 6 a nineteenth, 7 a minor twenty-first, 8 a twenty-second, etc. Physics tells you that to multiply the frequency by 2 (say), you have to divide the length of the pipe by 2. Same for 3, 4, etc. Therefore the successive hamonics are given by simple computations with fractions, like in good ol' primary school:
- 8' (fundamental)
- 8'/2=4' (octave)
- 8'/3=2'2/3 (twelfth)
- 8'/4=2' (fifteenth)
- 8'/5=1'3/5 (seventeenth)
- 8'/6 = 1'1/3 (nineteenth)
- 8'/7 = 1'1/7 (minor twenty-first)
- 8'/8=1' (twenty-second)
- etc.
If your fundamental is at 16', successive harmonics look like this:
- 16'/2=8'
- 16'/3=5'1/3
- 16'/4=4'
- 16'/5=3'1/5
- 16'/6=2'2/3
- 16'/7=2'2/7
- 16'/8=2'
Hi bonh-101,
What you say is mostly correct. Just two comments.
1) Swell being second and Choir third depends on the type of instruments. For example, in French and German romantic instruments, Choir tends to be second.
2) Mutations produce harmonics, i.e. sound whose frequency is a multiple of the frequency of the fundamental sound. If you multiply frequency by 2, the pitch goes up an octave, 3 gives a twelfth, 4 a fifteenth (i.e. two octaves), 5 a seventeenth, 6 a nineteenth, 7 a minor twenty-first, 8 a twenty-second, etc. Physics tells you that to multiply the frequency by 2 (say), you have to divide the length of the pipe by 2. Same for 3, 4, etc. Therefore the successive hamonics are given by simple computations with fractions, like in good ol' primary school:
- 8' (fundamental)
- 8'/2=4' (octave)
- 8'/3=2'2/3 (twelfth)
- 8'/4=2' (fifteenth)
- 8'/5=1'3/5 (seventeenth)
- 8'/6 = 1'1/3 (nineteenth)
- 8'/7 = 1'1/7 (minor twenty-first)
- 8'/8=1' (twenty-second)
- etc.
If your fundamental is at 16', successive harmonics look like this:
- 16'/2=8'
- 16'/3=5'1/3
- 16'/4=4'
- 16'/5=3'1/5
- 16'/6=2'2/3
- 16'/7=2'2/7
- 16'/8=2'
bonh-101
New member
Re: Registration
I'm not in physics yet and my science teacher very breifly went over frequencies...
I started learning all of this about two weeks ago.
I am happy I have found this website though, because I'm different then all of my classmates, They listen to stuff such as R&B rap hip-hop ect.
I listen to Bach and this is where I can get help from professionals and talk about the organ which at my age is found very unique said my band teacher. I try to talk to my friends but when I talk they give me the blank stare.
Also what I was writing up there earlier I knew about that(manual thing, it's just I was rushing because my mother said my time was up.)
I just really like this webpage and am happy to have stumbled upon such a place.
I'm not in physics yet and my science teacher very breifly went over frequencies...
I started learning all of this about two weeks ago.
I am happy I have found this website though, because I'm different then all of my classmates, They listen to stuff such as R&B rap hip-hop ect.
I listen to Bach and this is where I can get help from professionals and talk about the organ which at my age is found very unique said my band teacher. I try to talk to my friends but when I talk they give me the blank stare.
Also what I was writing up there earlier I knew about that(manual thing, it's just I was rushing because my mother said my time was up.)
I just really like this webpage and am happy to have stumbled upon such a place.
acc
Member
Re: Registration
If you're not comfortable with physics, don't worry; the math will do (for now) - just remember that the height of a mutation must be a fraction of that of the fundamental stop (e.g. the fifth harmonic of a 16' is given by 16/5=15/5+1/5=3' 1/5) and that the succession of the first eight harmonics of a C will give you an ascending sequence C-C-G-C-E-G-Bb-C.
As for your age - well, I don't know what your actual age is, but my own interest in the organ began when I was around 15, and the situation was no different then than it is now. Heck, I didn't even attempt to talk about organ with my classmates at school.
If you're not comfortable with physics, don't worry; the math will do (for now) - just remember that the height of a mutation must be a fraction of that of the fundamental stop (e.g. the fifth harmonic of a 16' is given by 16/5=15/5+1/5=3' 1/5) and that the succession of the first eight harmonics of a C will give you an ascending sequence C-C-G-C-E-G-Bb-C.
As for your age - well, I don't know what your actual age is, but my own interest in the organ began when I was around 15, and the situation was no different then than it is now. Heck, I didn't even attempt to talk about organ with my classmates at school.
giovannimusica
Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Re: Registration
Hi bonh-101,
The mixture stops give color, brilliance and texture. They can also serve to fill-in or *thicken * the sauce for the registrational dish you are preparing - not unlike what a chef at a fine restaurant does. The roman numerals serve to identify how many ranks or *sets* of pipes that are controlled by that stop.
Cheers,
Giovanni
Hi bonh-101,
The mixture stops give color, brilliance and texture. They can also serve to fill-in or *thicken * the sauce for the registrational dish you are preparing - not unlike what a chef at a fine restaurant does. The roman numerals serve to identify how many ranks or *sets* of pipes that are controlled by that stop.
Cheers,
Giovanni
Thomas Dressler
New member
Re: Registration
An interesting discussion here! I'm going to chime in (oh boy LOL) with a couple thoughts, a bit here and a bit there to catch up.
First, going back to articulation: Yes, legato is not entirely banned from Baroque playing, but as I said, it is not the norm as it is in Romantic playing. When using legato articulation with dissonances, it depends on the kind of dissonance and how it is resolved. Appogiaturas are generally resolved in a legato or almost legato fashion. Suspensions can be resolved legato, but if they act as an escape tone with no immediate resolution, it's often more dramatic to make a sharp articulation after the dissonance. Passing tones, which are generally on a weak beat and come before a strong one, are played with an articulation afterwards in order both to make the passing tone sound weaker and the following note stronger.
Legato or very close articulation also sounds good in chromatic passages. While one generally never plays legato over a barline in Baroque music, there are undeniable times when Bach marked this, such as, for instance, the counter subject in the Passacaglia fugue. My belief at this point is that he marked these because one would not normally play this way.
Really, I believe articulation in Baroque music should be flexible, but not based on legato as the norm.
As to age, I became interested in the organ--and especially the music of Bach--at about 13. Believe me, I had no one among my friends to discuss it with! Even now--this is why I spend time on these forums!
There are a number of approaches to registration that kind of boil down to maybe 2 major approaches, both inter-related--one of color and one of function. You'll get an interesting set of ideas here because Giovanni seems to be from the color school and I am mostly from the function school, but it depends on the music I'm playing. Let me explain what I mean. The functional approach applies mostly to earlier music such as Bach. In this case, organs were built and pieces were composed with certain kinds of registrations in mind. A plenum, or full organ, was generally built up in the German school based on using the Principals at the various pitches, starting from low and adding higher ones successively to make a louder or fuller sound. The mixture, in this case, is an integral part of the sound, adding more power and brilliance in the final stages of building up a chorus.
In the color approach, which is a later concept (but don't get this wrong--Bach and earlier organists were concerned about color too, especially in pieces that were not for plenum registrations) the stops are used in a more free way. The French Romantic composers such as Franck and Widor still had definate ideas on how the organ should be registered, but in general, organ playing of the 19th century and later is conceived with more freedom in combining stops. Organs were designed this way and music was composed with this in mind. And in this case, Giovanni's idea of a mixture being part of a "sauce" is more of the way it is done.
Yes, the roman numerals on Mixture stops indicate the number of pipes that play for each key. Mixtures generally have pipes that play at the unison and at the fifth, though there were times when Mixtures were made with pipes that also play at the third. But the idea is that these sounds are meant to reinforce the harmonics, not to sound like separate notes playing.
An interesting discussion here! I'm going to chime in (oh boy LOL) with a couple thoughts, a bit here and a bit there to catch up.
First, going back to articulation: Yes, legato is not entirely banned from Baroque playing, but as I said, it is not the norm as it is in Romantic playing. When using legato articulation with dissonances, it depends on the kind of dissonance and how it is resolved. Appogiaturas are generally resolved in a legato or almost legato fashion. Suspensions can be resolved legato, but if they act as an escape tone with no immediate resolution, it's often more dramatic to make a sharp articulation after the dissonance. Passing tones, which are generally on a weak beat and come before a strong one, are played with an articulation afterwards in order both to make the passing tone sound weaker and the following note stronger.
Legato or very close articulation also sounds good in chromatic passages. While one generally never plays legato over a barline in Baroque music, there are undeniable times when Bach marked this, such as, for instance, the counter subject in the Passacaglia fugue. My belief at this point is that he marked these because one would not normally play this way.
Really, I believe articulation in Baroque music should be flexible, but not based on legato as the norm.
As to age, I became interested in the organ--and especially the music of Bach--at about 13. Believe me, I had no one among my friends to discuss it with! Even now--this is why I spend time on these forums!
There are a number of approaches to registration that kind of boil down to maybe 2 major approaches, both inter-related--one of color and one of function. You'll get an interesting set of ideas here because Giovanni seems to be from the color school and I am mostly from the function school, but it depends on the music I'm playing. Let me explain what I mean. The functional approach applies mostly to earlier music such as Bach. In this case, organs were built and pieces were composed with certain kinds of registrations in mind. A plenum, or full organ, was generally built up in the German school based on using the Principals at the various pitches, starting from low and adding higher ones successively to make a louder or fuller sound. The mixture, in this case, is an integral part of the sound, adding more power and brilliance in the final stages of building up a chorus.
In the color approach, which is a later concept (but don't get this wrong--Bach and earlier organists were concerned about color too, especially in pieces that were not for plenum registrations) the stops are used in a more free way. The French Romantic composers such as Franck and Widor still had definate ideas on how the organ should be registered, but in general, organ playing of the 19th century and later is conceived with more freedom in combining stops. Organs were designed this way and music was composed with this in mind. And in this case, Giovanni's idea of a mixture being part of a "sauce" is more of the way it is done.
Yes, the roman numerals on Mixture stops indicate the number of pipes that play for each key. Mixtures generally have pipes that play at the unison and at the fifth, though there were times when Mixtures were made with pipes that also play at the third. But the idea is that these sounds are meant to reinforce the harmonics, not to sound like separate notes playing.
giovannimusica
Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Re: Registration
Yeah Tom,
I'm somewhat hobbled in my approach to organ playing since my Organ Teacher used the Dupre-Method(all of Bach's works in the Dupre editions) of organ playing. My teacher wasn't a luminary like Joan Lippincott or William Hayes, just a parish organist with tons of talent and a modicum of formal education.
Yeah Tom,
I'm somewhat hobbled in my approach to organ playing since my Organ Teacher used the Dupre-Method(all of Bach's works in the Dupre editions) of organ playing. My teacher wasn't a luminary like Joan Lippincott or William Hayes, just a parish organist with tons of talent and a modicum of formal education.
Thomas Dressler
New member
Re: Registration
Giovanni,
I've never thought of your posts as being hobbled! Just because we have different approaches or different areas of interest doesn't mean one is better than the other! Musicianship or ability to feel the music is the main thing, and the other stuff, the scholarly stuff, is there to reinforce the musicality. I think you have lots of perceptive things to say, and while I guess I can come across as strong in my opinions, that doesn't mean I think someone with a different approach is wrong. (I do know about the Dupre edition--that's what I learned first!)
Giovanni,
I've never thought of your posts as being hobbled! Just because we have different approaches or different areas of interest doesn't mean one is better than the other! Musicianship or ability to feel the music is the main thing, and the other stuff, the scholarly stuff, is there to reinforce the musicality. I think you have lots of perceptive things to say, and while I guess I can come across as strong in my opinions, that doesn't mean I think someone with a different approach is wrong. (I do know about the Dupre edition--that's what I learned first!)
giovannimusica
Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Re: Registration
Tom,
If you were here I'd give you a hug and a stiff single malt scotch - you are a gentleman and I was only being facetious
I didn't sense any powerful opinionating from you - you know your stuff and you wish to share with others and I respect you as a musician who far outstrips me.
Giovanni
Tom,
If you were here I'd give you a hug and a stiff single malt scotch - you are a gentleman and I was only being facetious
I didn't sense any powerful opinionating from you - you know your stuff and you wish to share with others and I respect you as a musician who far outstrips me.
Giovanni
acc
Member
Re: Registration
Glad to have you back, Tom!
I must say - a nicely detailed description of how to use legato in baroque music.
As for colour, I wouldn't say it came later than function, but rather that it tends to differentiate between the French and German schools, both in the baroque and in the romantic period. The French baroque composers (Couperin, Marchand, etc.) already had a very precise idea on how their works ought to sound, even to the point of putting stop names into their titles (Tierce en Taille, Basse de Trompette, etc.). So Franck and Widor really only kept a tradition that already existed for two centuries.
Glad to have you back, Tom!
I must say - a nicely detailed description of how to use legato in baroque music.
As for colour, I wouldn't say it came later than function, but rather that it tends to differentiate between the French and German schools, both in the baroque and in the romantic period. The French baroque composers (Couperin, Marchand, etc.) already had a very precise idea on how their works ought to sound, even to the point of putting stop names into their titles (Tierce en Taille, Basse de Trompette, etc.). So Franck and Widor really only kept a tradition that already existed for two centuries.
giovannimusica
Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Re: Registration
Acc,
You made a nice fill-in about *color*. I do believe that some German composers for organ were sensitive about color - they had all those piquant stops of the *Schnarrwerk* class like Apfelregal, Knopfregal, Musettenregal, trompeten-musette, messingregal and many, many others. A veritable botanical garden of short resonators with a myriad of shapes and constructional materials which *colored* very much a solo line.
Cheers,
Giovanni
Acc,
You made a nice fill-in about *color*. I do believe that some German composers for organ were sensitive about color - they had all those piquant stops of the *Schnarrwerk* class like Apfelregal, Knopfregal, Musettenregal, trompeten-musette, messingregal and many, many others. A veritable botanical garden of short resonators with a myriad of shapes and constructional materials which *colored* very much a solo line.
Cheers,
Giovanni
Thomas Dressler
New member
Re: Registration
Yes, you're both quite right about color in Baroque registrations. Registration in general is complex enough that we could start different threads for each topic: French Classical (or Baroque), German Baroque, French Romantic, 20th century Orchestral, English practices, etc. (as well as two areas I am fuzzy in--Italian and Spanish registration practices!)
But I do want to make clear that I did not mean the German Baroque organists and builders were not concerned about color. But when it came to combining stops in plenum combinations, there were conventions that were generally expected to be followed. The Germans tended to register as I mentioned in another thread about Bach registration (although Bach himself was likely a bit off the beaten path.) The French had the Plein Jeu, which is like a German Principal chorus, as well as a completely different concept, the Grands Jeux, which is basically the cornets and big reeds combined--a very different concept than early German practices--AND YET I believe Bach was familiar with French registration practices and used them in his music.
[This can get extremely complex, which is why I tried to condense it into simple terms, but that never holds up when you start to talk details and exceptions. . .]
But it is Bach's likely familiarity with French practices which informs my own Bach registrations. I have never been able to get his music to work well with a completely French Grands Jeux, but when playing the E-flat St. Anne Prelude, for instance, if I'm on the right organ I do a combined German/French registration which is based on a Principal chorus, but I see if I can get a cornet to blend in. Almost without exception I prefer reeds in the chorus in that particular prelude because of its French character. So yes, in this sense, color is extremely important. While I advocate knowing the practices of the period in question, I do not advocate a "one size plenum fits all" approach, even though it might sound that way. I think you need to know the norms in order to know how to deviate in an artistic manner.
When it comes to smaller pieces, then there are ALL KINDS of colors possible. The French were very specific about these colors, and even when it comes to playing Bach, it's a good idea to know these practices. I think the Germans may have allowed more freedom in color choices at that time, actually.
Perhaps it would be instructive to start different threads in some of these areas. I would be quite fascinated if someone knowledgeable would start threads on Italian and/or Spanish practices, along with some good references.
Yes, you're both quite right about color in Baroque registrations. Registration in general is complex enough that we could start different threads for each topic: French Classical (or Baroque), German Baroque, French Romantic, 20th century Orchestral, English practices, etc. (as well as two areas I am fuzzy in--Italian and Spanish registration practices!)
But I do want to make clear that I did not mean the German Baroque organists and builders were not concerned about color. But when it came to combining stops in plenum combinations, there were conventions that were generally expected to be followed. The Germans tended to register as I mentioned in another thread about Bach registration (although Bach himself was likely a bit off the beaten path.) The French had the Plein Jeu, which is like a German Principal chorus, as well as a completely different concept, the Grands Jeux, which is basically the cornets and big reeds combined--a very different concept than early German practices--AND YET I believe Bach was familiar with French registration practices and used them in his music.
[This can get extremely complex, which is why I tried to condense it into simple terms, but that never holds up when you start to talk details and exceptions. . .]
But it is Bach's likely familiarity with French practices which informs my own Bach registrations. I have never been able to get his music to work well with a completely French Grands Jeux, but when playing the E-flat St. Anne Prelude, for instance, if I'm on the right organ I do a combined German/French registration which is based on a Principal chorus, but I see if I can get a cornet to blend in. Almost without exception I prefer reeds in the chorus in that particular prelude because of its French character. So yes, in this sense, color is extremely important. While I advocate knowing the practices of the period in question, I do not advocate a "one size plenum fits all" approach, even though it might sound that way. I think you need to know the norms in order to know how to deviate in an artistic manner.
When it comes to smaller pieces, then there are ALL KINDS of colors possible. The French were very specific about these colors, and even when it comes to playing Bach, it's a good idea to know these practices. I think the Germans may have allowed more freedom in color choices at that time, actually.
Perhaps it would be instructive to start different threads in some of these areas. I would be quite fascinated if someone knowledgeable would start threads on Italian and/or Spanish practices, along with some good references.