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Pipes/Keys relationship.

Dorsetmike

Member
Hi, is it possible to have 2 or more stops with less pipes than the relevant manual has keys? Also is it possible to share stops between manuals?

Example, in my current instrument plus harpsichord experiments I'd like to have, say, a flute stop and a violin stop playable from one manual; they have slightly different ranges, must I adjust the sample sets to cover the same range, losing some notes from one or both stops, or can I have each stop cover the required range?

If I set up a 45 note manual what would happen if I try and load a stop with only 42 notes? If it can be done what if any changes should be made in the organ def file?

I could extend the range by borrowing notes from an alto flute sample to extend the flute, or do a bit of pitch shifting to add notes outside the normal range for the instrument just to keep GO happy?

My idea is to generate a simple harpsichord or organ on one manual and have 2 other "manuals" for which I could select one or two instruments e.g. flute and/or violin on one manual with Cello and/or another lower register wind like horn, cor anglais, bassoon or trombone.

Not my intention to have all instruments playing at once, just trying to set up a sort of general purpose combination in one organ file, rather than generating a separate file for each combination.

Maybe eventually have a load of manuals and play some Brandenburgs :rolleyes:
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

It's certainly possible to have stops with different number of pipes on the same manual! You set the number of pipes each stop will have and then at what logical key (FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalKeyNumber=) the pipes will start.

Borrowing in between manuals can be done either by using the same wav again or usually better by referencing with the REF:MMM:SSS:pPP where MMM = manual, SSS = stop and PPP = pipe that you want to reference.

Have a look at stop sections in the ODF of some samplesets and you'll see how the logic works.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

e9925248

New member
I'm trying to add an ODF description covering the curent GO development builds to
its help (docbook-format). As a first step, I have manged to list all supported attributes.

The current version of today (r644) is available at:
http://ourorgan.svn.sourceforge.net.../help/grandorgue.xml?revision=664&view=markup

[GO 0.2 will ignore/reject attributes of features added after its release]

There is a third way for "sharing" stops: Add a (maybe invisible) manual and put the stop on it. In GO 0.3, you can use the coupler panel to couple it to your other manuals - in GO 0.2 (or if you want a coupler on the main panel) you need to add couplers.

I also have seen ODFs using a dummy WAV file for not sound pipes.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
I seem to have another problem, when using a midi input I have to set an octave down offset for the harpsichord ranks, I have first Midi note set to 12, (for C0) in the organ file, in GO3 clicking on a key gives the correct note, but using a keyboard or a midi file input I need to set a down octave offset to get the note I require.

In the Blanchet set I've added the lower notes from the "Pedale" folder to the normal 8_I folder and pitch shifted the to get the lower notes for 8_IIluth .

I note that the Blanchet set do not follow the file naming convention used in other sets of having the midi number as part of the .wav filename, is this likely to have any effect. Bit of a pain to rename the lot!
 

e9925248

New member
GO just uses relative path for its samples and expects everything in/beyond the folder containing the .organ file. The rest of the file system layout is up to the user.

You need to define your manual covering the expected MIDI range using:
NumberOfLogicalKeys
NumberOfAccessibleKeys
FirstAccessibleKeyLogicalKeyNumber
FirstAccessibleKeyMIDINoteNumber

"NumberOfLogicalKeys = NumberOfAccessibleKeys = number of expected manual keys" and "FirstAccessibleKeyLogicalKeyNumber=1" and "FirstAccessibleKeyLogicalKeyNumber= first MIDI note number" is one possible solution.

If one stop does not cover the whole manual, limit it with FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalKeyNumber and NumberOfAccessiblePipes.
 

wehtam721

New member
Hi all,

I actually am having the opposite problem. Rather than having a stop with fewer pipes than keys, I'd like to have stops with more pipes than keys. I have midi keyboards which have 61 keys but I'd like to write the ODF with stops on 2 manuals that have 85 pipes (enough for an octave coupler and a suboctave coupler). It seems like I've been through every combination of settings that I can think of and I haven't been able to get it to work as I'd expect. Has anyone tried this and gotten it to work? I'm using version 3.0.6 1026 and right now, the settings are as follows for the manual declaration and a sample stop declaration:


Name=Solo
Comments=
MIDIInputNumber=005
NumberOfLogicalKeys=85
NumberOfAccessibleKeys=61
FirstAccessibleKeyLogicalKeyNumber=13
FirstAccessibleKeyMIDINoteNumber=36

Name= Tuba 16'
NumberOfLogicalPipes=85
NumberOfAccessiblePipes=61
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalPipeNumber=013
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalKeyNumber=001


Following the usual stuff, I defined 85 pipes numbered from 001 to 085. What should I change to make this work as I would expect it to? Everything works fine when there are only 61 pipes. Also, with things set up this way, the unison off coupler causes notes to "stick" on when there are keys depressed when the coupler is activated. Those notes then just keep playing regardless of whether you release the key or change the unison off coupler. This didn't happen before. Let me know if there's something I'm missing here. I look forward to hearing back from everyone soon.

Take care,
Matt
 

e9925248

New member
This should be done using the manuals: The logical key range covers the whole compass while the accessible range are the accessible keys.

Inaccessible stop pipes are only available via REF.
 

wehtam721

New member
Thanks for the reply. I set the manual definition to have 85 logical and 61 accessible. I rewrote the pipes definitions using REF. So I have pipes 13-73 which are the real 61 notes for the manual and give a .wav file for the sample, then pipes 1-12 (for the 16' coupler) use REF and pipes 74-85 (for the 4' coupler) use REF. Not adjusting the logical or accessible keys values for the stop (leaving them both set to 61 - as would be the norm), however, led GrandOrgue to only load the first 61 pipes (so from pipe 1-61). I don't have the top octave of samples which are assigned to pipes 62-73.

Subsequent playing around with the values in the stop definition yielded that if I set both the logical and accessible pipes to 85 in the stop, I got all the samples to load, play at the correct pitches, and the 4' and 16' couplers to work as expected, but again (as mentioned before) the Unison Off coupler causes notes to play. The keys don't turn red on the screen, but they play back as if somebody were holding them down. There's a whole host of other problems with the Unison Off coupler under these circumstances, but I'll save everyone the bother reading about it unless the information would be helpful. Let me know if you'd like me to give more details about this.

Thanks again for taking the time to look into this. I really do appreciate all of the help. I feel like the solution must be staring me in the face, but I can't seem to find it.

Take care and have a great day,
Matt
 
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e9925248

New member
It would be easier, if you could a post an ODF showing the problems and provide some instructions showing how to reproduce the problems.
 

wehtam721

New member
I did some additional experimenting last night and decided to give things a try with 73 pipes instead of the 85 I had originally planned. I kept the 4' extension and decided not to use the 16' extension. This worked like a charm. Everything worked exactly as I was expecting it to on the first try. The unison off coupler also functions exactly as one would expect now too. No complications at all. I kept the 16' coupler for the division in general, but didn't extend the ranks in the 16' direction.

This leads me to believe that the complication was coming from the fact that the first pipe in the stop declaration (pipe001) wasn't actually the first accessible pipe. When I have some more spare time (probably this weekend), I'll post both the functioning ODF and the experimental one along with some steps to reproduce the problems I experienced just in case anyone would still like to take a look at them. In the mean time, I'm satisfied with the way that it's working now and everything sounds great. I cared a lot more about getting the 4' extension working than the 16' extension anyway. I'm also hoping to be able to share some photos/videos about my setup sometime soon. Just have to find the time to prepare them.

Thanks for all of the support and help over the past few days. I've found this forum to be a great resource and I really appreciate the work and camaraderie that takes place here.

Take care and thanks again,
Matt
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

I've uploaded a small demo sampleset in which I've demonstrated a method of modelling an organ with extended range both upwards and downwards reachable by octave couplers.

This is a very quick stab at solving the problem and it should perhaps be tested with more stops (like real 4' and 16' etc) and possibly also stops/ranks without the extensions as well just to see that the method is foolproof.

If you don't want to download the whole sampleset (some 73 MB) at www.familjenpalo.se/sites/default/files/sampleset/demo-16-4.7z you can also just have a look at the .organ file View attachment demo-16-4.organ.txt. Feel free to come with comments or suggestions for improvement if you think there's a better way or more "correct" way to deal with the problem.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

wehtam721

New member
Good afternoon Lars (and to everyone else as well),

Thanks for taking the time to look at this issue. I've looked at your demo and it seems to work very nicely. What you have is very similar to what I have done. I was eventually able to get all of the samples to load in this manner and the 4' and 16' couplers work fine and I had gotten the settings the same way that you have them. I can confirm from my experiments that these settings still work even when there are real 16' and 4' stops associated with the manual or with other stops that don't have the extensions.

Even in your small demo, however, the unison off coupler produces some strange effects. Try adding a unison off coupler to the postiv for instance (I've attached a file which does). Here's what I observe:

1. Activate the stop, then without pressing any keys, activate the unison off coupler. GrandOrgue makes some notes play on their own (at least on my pc).

2. Activate the stop, then play a note (either via midi keyboard or by clicking the note on the screen - I clicked middle c on the screen but have tried many other test cases both on screen and via keyboard). Leave the note playing. Activate the unison off coupler. Again, you hear the extra notes and additionally it acts as a 16' coupler as well.

3. Replicate the setup described in #2 above. Before turning off the unison off coupler, release the note being played. Both the 8' and 16' pitches remain playing even though the key is no longer depressed. Turning off the unison off coupler turns off the extra notes, but the 8' and 16' pitches of the key you depressed originally remain on.

Additionally, I prepared a second modification (which I have also attached) to your demo which only uses a 4' extension and then the unison off coupler works great (as do all the other features). It seems like having an extension on the 16' side is messing with the functionality of the unison off couplers.

I had to add a .txt extension to the .organ files so that the forum would let me upload them. Just remove this .txt extension once you have them downloaded.

Let me know if you experience the same issues or if this is something that is local to my pc for some reason or another. It seems so strange that this should happen. I'm wondering if, perhaps, something in the source code is causing the unison off coupler to not handle the 16' extension properly.

Lastly, since Lars' small demo organ produces the same problems as my very large organ does, I'm not going to upload my ODF. It's much easier to work with the small one from Lars (thanks again, Lars, for putting that together!). If it would still be helpful to see my setup too, let me know and will post it then.

Thanks again, as always, and sorry this was such a lengthy post.

Take care,
Matt
 

Attachments

  • demo-16-4 (unison off - no 16).organ.txt
    12.7 KB · Views: 8
  • demo-16-4 (unison off).organ.txt
    13 KB · Views: 8

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

I can confirm all the issues of the above post on a Linux build of rev 1087.

Now the real question is if the method in the odf is faulty or if there's a bug in GO (very likely anyway since the method shouldn't be allowed if it's wrong...)?

In my part of the organ world a unison off coupler is uncommon (read non-existant) but I can see that some would like the effect. And of course if the feature exist in GO it should work correctly.

I'll file a bug report of this on sourceforge.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

wehtam721

New member
I agree that it's not all that common. Even when the organs that I've played here have them, I feel that they rarely get used. In the organ that I'm putting together I only put one unison off stop in the ODF. It's for the solo division. Since the idea would be that the ranks would be used on their own anyway, using the unison off is a handy way to make an 8' flute be a 4' flute or an 8' oboe become an "english horn" without changing the pitch that any coupled divisions play at.

Incidentally, here's a link to a YouTube video of me playing the organ I've built in my house over the past 6 months or so. It's a transcription of Habanera by Chabrier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C3c9DHka2k

All my best,
Matt
 

CMDigitalOrgans

New member
wehtam721,

Is this your own custom ODF? Or an existing sample set? I'm building a theater organ for a client, but my own background is almost exclusively classical organ.

Cheers,
Chris Martin,
Organ Builder
 

wehtam721

New member
This is a custom ODF which I've put together from multiple instruments which are freely available.

Matt
 
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