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Adjusting arrangements for whatever pipe organ presented

daveycrockett

New member
I have a persistent question concerning whether or not it is likely that the organ I am trying to play is arranged oddly or it is "old school" or an organ set for church, a Baptist church, where I live. I note a pair of what one is supposed to call expression pedals, and a crescendo pedal, too. The expression pedals are for the Swell and Choir division each (nothing for the General division), and the way they are set is that the pedals have to be pushed down for softer tones, which: I cannot imagine how anyone can tell the minimal difference really. I thought that pipe organs have a way to set the volume off when the pedal is up, and really loud when it is down. The Crescendo pedal works that way. I know I have heard great variations in dynamics on all the organs I have ever heard on the radio. On the organ I am describing, up means that the boxes are closed, supposedly, a softer volume somehow, and down means the boxes are open, which is supposed to be louder. Anyway, I was wondering if this is similar to other organs on which artists actually perform. Also, I am confused as to how one follows the suggestions of arrangements which are designed by composers/arrangers for organ, especially while the organ I am describing has limited stops and couplers and three manuals. I realize, too, that some organists will have worked out dynamics just by pressing pistons and stop buttons, manually or automatically. Perhaps I have not gone the distance to "arrange" the many compositions for the organ I am playing. This leaves me unable to perform anything, while I am unsure how to regard dynamics as a challenge or impossibility on this organ. Obviously, hymns are able to be played adequately, by just changing combinations, but loud and soft in the same or any sort of composition seems quite tedious. It can also be someone else's simple idea that the only loud and soft pedal was a Crescendo-type pedal and other pedals are there without really being true to their purpose. I would appreciate someone's interest in how other organs are arranged as constructed. Also, you may note that it is my regard that I am not quite a rank amateur or beginner, while attempting the things I am trying to play on the organ I am describing. While I have the privilege to make my choices of registrations, I can ultimately work it out, I think, but if I have other composer's/arranger's suggestions, and for some composers it might be a tacet suggestion, actually, which still is impossible. and then I am somewhat lost. What is my actual work supposed to be?
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
In regards to the shutter controls, some European organs are like that ... I first ran into this on the Vatican organ in Rome. I played the Jørlunde Kirke Frobenius in Denmark two summers ago and it's swell shade controls were conventional, just like I am used to here in the US.

If that Baptist organ is of an American builder, chances are that the pipe organ technician has the wires reversed on the motor control ... an easy fix, but it takes a technician to accomplish, just to make sure the adjustments are correct.

A few years ago, I played a 30/III Möller pipe that had no expression controls installed (it has them now) and had to adjust the 'volume' by adding and subtracting stops ... the crescendo shoe can help lots there with judicial use.

At the church where I play 9/II Möller pipe - I have 4 generals ... no division pistons ... three of those are for service playing, and one is the general cancel, and sometimes used for a registration change. I use the crescendo shoe a lot ... having played this organ for nearly 30 years, I know exactly what stops are coming on and when through the movement of that shoe - I can "set" the shoe to a certain spot and know which stops are engaged before playing.
 

daveycrockett

New member
Thank you for your reply.
Evidently, anything is possible.
Still, I wonder what is more usual, or theoretically what is more convenient, which an artist would actually choose as a construction for pedals. Perhaps, I mean what did Bach or someone else intend. I know little what books are relevant to this topic. Certainly, convenience is interesting. But also---what is more important---it is not clear whether the expression pedals (whichever direction they are given for crescendo and decrescendo) are supposed to operate in a fashion which allows the division to have a great deal of dynamic from silent to fortissimo. I just wanted to know whether pedals on larger organs are constructed in such a way, or is this a mistake?
I think such knowledge will help me choose to rest on what success I get from my general practice. I have been practicing on the same things (forty or fifty things) over the last three years. Every once in a while I notice a little more success, which helps me continue wanting to play. Yet, I might be trying to do things which are impossible on this organ I am using. I presuppose the point, too, that some artists might find a way for everything. On the other hand, I think artists choose organ music for the type of organ they are playing, and to show the way in which the organ is really constructed.
I have no idea who actually built the organ at my church, not that it has to be Baptist or any denomination. I have no idea which school of organ-building would claim it as an exponent. So, that means I have no idea what the intent has been.
For my seeming trouble in adjusting compositions to the organ I am playing, I wish for stops I do not have, and stops present to be in other divisions. There is a full definition of what it means to adjust which I might be missing, while I wonder what will be my success with the organ music I have chosen as ordinary repertoire. This leaves me wondering whether I should just concentrate on the mechanics of keyboard/pedal work, instead of wracking my brain (which sounds rather impatient) to wait for the instruction or intuition to choose right stops at the right times. I find that eventually for some things I have worked out a scheme.
Another thing, I do not really think of organists as magicians; should I? (Meaning: the way in which they choose stops and pistons and the way in which they switch them on and off is rather more like sleight-of-hand.) I am not anywhere near adapting to sleight-of-hand changes, and I feel as if such notions are really against what was intended by any concert artist or composer.
Substitutions are key, but it causes me a theoretical discussion to deliberate whether it is technically correct to try and be successful choosing substitute stops for compositions which say what they require.
I have little idea of the order in which the Crescendo pedal adds stops on the way to the loudest volume it allows. I might ask the church organist if he knows.
Will a teacher/instructor in such things provide very much more advice for how to play any organ, which will help me get more comfortable to the constraints I find? I cannot decide whether the instructor I might want will actually help so much, because I will want to know things which help me choose across the board for almost any organ, rather than being taught specifically for one organ.
 

wljmrbill

Member
I would assume that the church organist can answer many of your questions in regards to the instrument.Perhaps a text on Organ Registrations might help you..generally: certain stops are used for certain types,styles, periods of music as a general rule as well as certain stops/ranks etc are used in period instruments ( baroque , romantic, classical, modern etc) which lends them to be used for that period of musical compositions. You can with knowledge register any organ to sound the Best that it is capable for a composition. Many musical compositions have suggested registrations at the top of the page in some editions. Good Luck..experiment and practice will give great results as well as listening to many performances on i.e. You Tube for example.
 

daveycrockett

New member
I am really trying to understand from the vast experience of people here the theoretical idea which someone in 1973 might have had, and what were the reasons for wiring the expression pedals to operate seeming opposite from what I expected, and more, to not have the widest sort of dynamic volume from those pedals, which would have allowed me to be more expressive in things which require much variation quickly, while I am trying not to resort to the Crescendo pedal only, as a form of control of dynamics. The Crescendo is convenient, but it always turns out the same way. Please understand here that I do not think of the Crescendo pedal in possibly the same way as an expressive pedal on divisions (which I imagined). I feel like the Crescendo pedal is a forte to the loudest possible sound which can be present in a room. At least, for the one I have, the first position is really more than forte. I think it might be commendable to have another pedal, for use of expression which is something other than fanfare-like.
Oh, yes, the judicial use of the Crescendo pedal, or any expression pedal.
I am limited to stops for which one needs sleight-of-hand.
The church organist seems to prefer no dynamic extremes.
What I can do is play soft and play loud, with hardly variations of either, and certainly not quickly.
I do not use the Crescendo pedal, as I might be led to, while it is suggested in various things, because the result is not what was intended.
I am finding it hard to manipulate the stops to be timed to dynamics which are written in the music I might play. I can eventually manipulate some stops with months of wondering whether I will ever find a combination which works for the substitutions I am having to use, instead of the suggested stops which are written on the music actually. I have to change manuals, because the stops required are sometimes not in the manuals required by the composition. I can describe how I would use the pistons, but I feel it is a futile interest, while I have to dedicate too much time to my "programming", over actual manual/foot dexterity.
Add to this, perhaps, that I feel lost sometimes when trying to choose so many substitutions for things which are suggested.
 

Nikam

New member
Perhaps best to use simple registration, which to your ear (and bearing in mind the music, occasion and building) sounds pleasing, and as experience allows, begin to build on that, one step at a time. It's important to walk before we run, otherwise it's easy to get bogged down!
 

wljmrbill

Member
Good advice Nikam. You must remember DC that most iof the music classical and before did not have much expression as such..Was soft, medium, loud, full organ etc..and no need to expression pedals..only in more modern times have we used the expressiion pedal prior you used stops ( ranks ) to make the expression. IN these cases you use the organ ( swell, great, chior etc ) that had the stops (sounds if you will) you desired for that part of/or the piece. Many many times I have never touched the expression controls after starting a piece...only changed my registrations as needed: but then again I had a 3 manual,plenty of pistons...so was easy to do. Practice, practice,practice and it will become automatic for you. Remember just because they say play on swell, great etc..does not mean you have to USE WHAT YOU HAVE to work with to make the piece sing...You can create many sounds by combining ranks(stops) i.e. flute 8' and a nazard 2 2/3..makes a nice softer solo stop...add other mutastion/mixtures and lean more to the reedy sound.... Take care
 

daveycrockett

New member
Thank you again for your interesting comments.
Your comment about not using the pedals at all is what I imagine really, pertinent to the era of music. I have been confused by the ideal dynamics for the Romantic and Modern eras.
I feel the funny notion I have that I should be pressing pistons or stop buttons on almost every beat of certain of Bach's Preludes and Fugues. I have no intent to program them in such a manner, because I have already knowledge of it being wrong to play them in a romantic way. However, it is extremely interesting, when I use my MOTIF XS to play certain of them in instrumental combinations.
The time to perform is too early yet.
Thank you for your kind observations.
I feel my resolution is to live without the expectation of broad dynamics for everything, at least at this my early interest. It helps to hear that it is not expected according to the era of music. I am not sure what to do for the Romantic and Modern eras. I have found the comment which gives me a bit of rest on my major anxiety, and I will think of preparing the music, trying to assimilate as much as possible, while keeping my expectations short of impossibilities, not being sure what impossibilities will be, while I hear what is done on organs which have a lot of everything. It might help to play another organ, but I have no idea when that will occur. There are a few pipe organs around here, but I cannot know what are the protocols which would provide me the time to practice or experience them. On the other hand, the church organist is well known here where I live, and it might be a favor I could ask him.
It sounds sincere that I will need to choose stops well enough and not think of it being impossible, while I feel some compositions might not fit, because it is hard to choose substitutions, for what composers say, or to choose to play the stop on a different manual. I feel untrue to the composition, because I am rearranging what has worked on another organ as the composer desired first.
Can you clarify more fully what is meant by "practice, practice, practice...": did you mean the digital manipulation of choosing the stops or the pistons, or just the notes? I think I hear that I am supposed to pay close attention to just the mental part. I think it means my ear will attune to the nearest combination for what I am playing eventually. (I get very distracted by stopping in the middle of the mechanics of the notes, just to try and settle what is a particular combination needed.) Even while the organ I use has not a wide range of stops which resemble any other instrument, which means I find my combinations seeming limited, I worked about 14 months on what stop combinations were necessary for the Sicilienne of Durufle's Op. 5. I am not absolutely certain whether I will leave the combinations as I have chosen. I never feel like programming pistons, as to perform the pieces I am studying, because I cannot decide about the control of the dynamics, or the digital manipulations, through things I would have prepared. Further, I determine that I must program the stop combinations to lead better toward the use of the Crescendo pedal, which goes from forte to fortissimo, really, because it seems to be too obviously noticeable, when someone is using just soft stops and suddenly plans to be greatly powerful, certainly because of its use of reeds over the former very soft flutes one might have programmed prior. I have never found a place to use the Tutti button.
I find I am not able to press stops or pistons for some compositions, because there is no convenient place at which to add/subtract. I have not really noticed organists referring sleight-of-hand.
I guess I should never see a composition which is entirely contained (in stops or combinations) on the organ I am using; so, I live on substitutions, of course.
 
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wljmrbill

Member
When I say Practice, Practice,Practice...I refer to all areas of organ playing..as well as practice the piece perhaps with different registrations to find the one set that works best for you and the music.
 

daveycrockett

New member
I noticed this morning that the signal lights for the Expressive pedals of the Divisions in question above do not show. I suppose there is something different which occurred in the installation, and it might have occurred sometime shortly after the main installation in 1973, or at the addition of dismantled parts from another older organ of 1910. HOwever it occurred, I was wondering is there an immediate answer for what I wonder is the effect of these lights not working. There was an installation of memory banks sometime in the 90s, too. I have no idea how anything is wired.
 

wljmrbill

Member
Kinda sounds like a general expression pedal ( crescendo ) which in most cases controls the the gradual addition of all the ranks of the organ. Many times they do have lights reflecting the progression the added ranks. This lets you use them as a piston per say.( Lars uses this tech. with his organ ) Might be a contact board/connections problems, also might check to see if there is a fuse to that section. With all the updates to the organ it may well be a error by a technician.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
. . . I find I am not able to press stops or pistons for some compositions, because there is no convenient place at which to add/subtract.

This will take some practice to negotiate ... at times, I will use an assistant to make changes, especially on organs without pistons.

daveycrockett said:
I have not really noticed organists referring sleight-of-hand.

This is something I must do all the time ... with only 4 pistons (dedicated to hymns and liturgy combinations) I have to use "sleight of hand" methods to add and subtract stops. All of my stops are rocker tabs in one single row and directly over the Swell manual - makes it easy to add/remove pedal stops when playing in the lower regions on that keyboard, and conversely changing Great manual stops when playing in the upper registers.

I have to make do ... I have performed Chorale No 3 in A Minor (Franck) and Sonata I (Mendelssohn) on this II/9 instrument - and quite successfully. Yes, it took hours to work out registration changes and still remain fluid with the music, but it was possible, mostly with sleight of hand registration changes.
I guess I should never see a composition which is entirely contained (in stops or combinations) on the organ I am using; so, I live on substitutions, of course.[/QUOTE]

I noticed this morning that the signal lights for the Expressive pedals of the Divisions in question above do not show. I suppose there is something different which occurred in the installation, and it might have occurred sometime shortly after the main installation in 1973, or at the addition of dismantled parts from another older organ of 1910. HOwever it occurred, I was wondering is there an immediate answer for what I wonder is the effect of these lights not working. There was an installation of memory banks sometime in the 90s, too. I have no idea how anything is wired.

Could simply be a burned out light bulb, too ... On my II/9 at church, there is one indicator for the Crescendo ... I have to "feel" where I am by the position of that shoe.

Oh, and I despise using the Tutti piston too ... I much rather prefer to make up my own full ensemble. I've seen people, who, during the first time they sit a a new organ console, the first thing they do is hit the Tutti ... I much prefer exploring all the softer stops at first. It is, after all, all those smaller scale ranks that make up the whole of the organ.

Do you know who built this organ you are talking about? There should be a name plate on the console, usually under a keyboard or on the coupler board above the Swell manual.
 

daveycrockett

New member
I am afraid to ask about the organ. There is a name plate, but I am not sure what it is right now. Why do you ask? The organ is maintained at a certain level, I know neither to say it is high or low. I think they have disconnected the two pedals, and all I can notice is the shutter noise from above. The organist always points out how it makes a difference. I have to wonder.
My wish to know how to practice is to know what are the baseline expectations of facilitating dynamics one way or another, not to resort to the Crescendo pedal. The resolution is that I have not very much ability to change combinations, with the limits of the types of stops, and where they are, and I will do the best I can to try and arrive at a scheme which works for things. The idea of an assistant is also interesting, too. It is not to be imagined where I am, however.
I have been working for very long times, months and months, to choose any combination scheme. Am I supposed to wish to perform quicker?
 
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