What happened to good workmanship?

Dorsetmike

Member
Came across this -

It would seem that modern trains can not achieve the reliability levels obtained with older stock. 100,000+ miles between faults being quite normal with 1950's/60's designs of EMU's (Electric Multiple Units) whereas many of the latest types struggle to reach 15,000 !

Is it a case of more to go wrong with all the new technologies? Or is it just poor design and build quality?
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Today its just: Slap everything together - On with a coat of paint - And move it out the door quicker than three shakes of a Lamb's tail........
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Look at it another way: German carmaker "x" makes quality cars that are expensive - carmaker "x" decides to cut down on quality but still demands a high sticker price - one or another fool falls for the sub-standard car made by "x" but the really discriminant buyers with a nose for quality will not be fooled. The judgement will be swift and severe - "x'" will suffer catastrophic loss of market share. Sum total: Quality workmanship will always cost - You don't get "quality something" for nothing.

Mercedes-Benz was in quite a pickle some years back when they were in partnership with Chrysler. In retrospect it was a godsend that the Daimler-Chrysler partnership went up in flames since the quality ethos that Mercedes had was something that Chrysler knew nothing of. Mercedes is a whole other workmanship ethos. The Yanks are clueless in this regard.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Looking at the reliability ratings of the so called "Quality cars" from Germany, I really am puzzled as to how they keep their market share. However I suspect that the numpties that continue to buy them have enough money to pay repair costs and dont have to worry so long as they have that fashionable name. [posh voice] "Ai've got a Merc/Beemer/Audi/Porsche"[/posh voice] (delete makes as appropriate) Seems to me the "Quality" is only skin deep to paraphrase a well known saying, leather seats, fancy styling (methinks ugly is the "in" style) and all the gadgets, none of which can compensate for lack of reliability in my view, but then they probably have 2 or 3 cars each in the family so can afford to be without one for the odd week or two that it's away for repair each month ;)

What is the point of having a car that can do 170MPH when the national speed limit is 70MPH - especially if it spends most of it's time on the school run.

Common terminology for the big 4x4s/SUVs is "Chelsea Tractors" in UK. Surely the Porsche Cayenne turbo is the most blatant of these ugly, wasteful hulks.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Well, as one of those "numpties" ... :lol: ... and owner of what I believe is a quality car from Germany, albeit a 2004 Volkswagen Jetta GLS 1.8T ... I purchased it not as a status symbol or prestige, rather because it far, far, far exceeds the quality and features anything that the American, Japanese, Korean (etc) auto makers had available in the same price range.

Granted, I pay dearly for its routine service ... about once every six months (oil & filter changes, mostly) as all service is done at the VW agency - only because they do quality work and they do it right the first time, every time.
 

teddy

Duckmeister
It depends on what goes wrong and why. People do not always bother to service their cars properly, especially if they buy them secondhand, and then find that a service is £600.00. I know one idiot who bought a Mercedes and then realised there was no oil in the engine after a while. "But I had it MOTd" ( annually road worthiness check) he said. I have had one breakdown in 16 years with BMW's and that was because I ignored an intermittent fault. Also with all the devices and gadgets on cars these days there is more to go wrong. Do you count a fault with the electric mirrors as a breakdown?
Anyone who wonders why it is worth driving a BMW or similar car should try driving one for a few months, and then go back to a tinny Japanese job. They would soon change their opinion.

teddy
 

heartscore

New member
I am driving an '66 Volvo Amazon, I use it daily and it's my only car. From today's perspective it's very, very simple constructed without electric window-lifters, without air-conditioning and without everything, what makes a car comfortable. But the workmanship is without comparison, it's still not rusting and very reliable.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Teddy, I have driven BMW, (5 series) a company car, I didn't find it that much better than the Escort estate I had before it, and I much preferred the Citroen BX19 diesel that followed it, and would not swap my current or previous Mazdas for one either.

Lars, VW are not quite the prestige/status symbol over here as the Porsche, BMW, Merc and Audi, my rant is aimed more at the wannabes who are influenced by those perceived as being "leaders of fashion" and what are the brands that they "must have" without taking into consideration costs nor suitability for use on UK roads and their own needs (like who needs a large SUV to take a 5 year old half a mile to school and a weekly trip to the shops).

I don't need to be able to accelerate from 0 to 60 in single figure seconds, nor cruise at over 100MPH as so many drivers seem to find essential; I don't see the point of paying excessive road tax or driving something that uses a lot of fuel; to me a car needs to be able to get me from A to B in reasonable comfort in a reasonable time and economically my 9 year old Mazda2 hatch back does that for me; comfort means I arrive at my destination not feeling completely shattered, no aches or pains due to poor driving position, no muzzy head from excessive noise or poor ventilation; economically includes purchase price, as well as running costs.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
You will find that Diesel powered cars and trucks are in for a shake up soon, and about time they are a terrible health threat.
As I said before on another thread a car that has good acceleration is safer when overtaking.
Regarding servicing: If you use the recommended oils and filters you can expect from 15000k to 25000k between oil changes also on BMW you have service indicator lights that reduce from 5 lights down to 1 as time goes by depends on what kind of driving you are doing, I would have thought that all modern cars would have this system by now, I have to take my cars in to have a WOF (Warrant of fitness) every 6mths apart from this the cars go in about once in about 3-4yrs so that’s not too bad
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Yep, the "wannabes" do like to spoil it for everyone else........I am with Mike but I also like a car with "oomph" under the hood. Btw, there are hybrid Porsches running on the streets of Moscow. And with the latest victory by Audi at LeMans with its hybrid cars taking first and second place, we are seeing that a V-6 diesel can crank out 510 ponies and it is connected to a kinetic energy recovery system that stores energy, which means no extra engine effort is needed to get back up to speed after braking, which means vastly improved fuel economy. There are particle filters, urea injectors and catalytic devices that can clean up the exhaust of a diesel already available.
 
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teddy

Duckmeister
A good point about Volvo. You see more old Volvos on the road here than probably any other make. Must say something about them. I have driven 900 miles in a small car. The only one I would repeat the experience in is the Citroen but unfortunately the only one over here with the air suspension system is the C5 and I have been warned off them, by a Citroen engineer because they are overcomplicated. If you are driving long distances you need something very comfortable and fast. A large car will roll and ride better than a small car because of its wider track and longer wheel base. The extras like automatic climate control make a journey so much more comfortable in a hot or muggy climate.
By the way I still consider myself fortunate to have cars like this even after all these years. A wannabee? Not me, I just think I am lucky.

teddy
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I am with you in general teddy, comfort, reliability and safety. yea
 

Chi_townPhilly

Sr. Regulator
Sr. Regulator
I know there's more heat than light on my part, but...

Today its just: Slap everything together - On with a coat of paint - And move it out the door quicker than three shakes of a Lamb's tail........
With Usura
With usura hath no man a house of good stone
Each block cut smooth and well-fitting...
No picture is made to endure nor to live with
But is made to sell and sell quickly
With usura, sin against nature...
They have brought whores for Eleusis
Corpses are set to banquet
At behest of usura.

The above is from Canto 45 by Ezra Pound.
 

John Watt

Member
heartscore knows how to hit it. He can type '66 Volvo again, if he wants to.

I like how Asians lost the wars but won the peaces.
Honda comes out as the cheapest car in America, dominates the market and gets expensive.
Slant the Honda "H", say Honda with more of an accent, and you've got Hyundai,
coming out as the cheapest car in America, dominating the market, and getting expensive.

I miss my Volkswagen vans. Too bad Scotland gave the world electricity and steam engines,
but uh, forgot to make cars. I'm glad most still use McPherson struts. (shock absorbers)
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
McPherson struts!!!!
My gosh little Johny Watts I did not have you down as a petrol head:cool:
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Any relation to the James Watt that invented steam ............................................................................ (engines)
 
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