What is Jazz

stu

New member
The way my ears hear it is that almost all notable arrangers composers in jazz are or were jazz improvisers. The jazz feeling is in the arrangements or orchestrations. They also can be improvised on depending on how the musicians feel, or played with an unmistakebly jazz expression. Some bands did just that and played the same arrangement different on many performances.
In jazz, emotion and expression are before aesthetics. Although this is also found in European music, the aesthetics are mostly placed before expression.
Hope that makes sense.:confused:
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
The jazz feeling is in the arrangements or orchestrations. They also can be improvised on depending on how the musicians feel,
stu we are getting to the nub of the question but how does a section improvise on a
written score
 

Mat

Sr. Regulator
Staff member
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I know it's from another thread but I couldn't help myself.

jazznut when I posted I had not bothered to even listen to your posted links as what I had heard elsewhere put my teeth on edge, but I have just sampled the first couple of minutes of each clip and was pleasantly surprised it is indeed true Jazz IMO and I have changed my mind and will give it another go :cool:
I assume you are a musician if so what is your instrument??

Okay, let me get this straight. So, you're saying this is "true jazz", and this (at least the first 60 seconds of it) is not, just because it's not improvised?
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Well I took the trouble to open that Sun Ra link, I think they had the title words the wrong way round, should have been "Is Nothing", I would have thought I was listening to a recording of native drums with occasional sounds of a native pipe wailing. A complete waste of just under 10 minutes waiting for something to happen, or did I get to listen to a practice session? If so they need a lot more practice and more than a few MUSIC lessons.

Are people actually allowed to post that insult to the ears on a MUSIC forum?
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I know it's from another thread but I couldn't help myself.



Okay, let me get this straight. So, you're saying this is "true jazz", and this (at least the first 60 seconds of it) is not, just because it's not improvised?
Sorry mat but I don't understand the point you are making can you put your thoughts into words
 

stu

New member
stu we are getting to the nub of the question but how does a section improvise on a
written score

I know what you mean Colin, but my take on this is that being improvising musicians they often improvise on the themes.
During band rehearsals they often rearrange a written score. To do this, I feel, it immediately becomes improvisation. Improvised variations. When performing in concert or studio, that same theme will be approached thus, but the improvisation on the theme can be totally different as that during rehearsals.
Then there is the 'Head' arrangements. Variations on a theme but emerging as something completely original. Woody Herman often left the band to rehearse on their own. They, as most jazz orchestras did, often came up with head arrangements, nothing written down. A sort of 'lets see what happens!' Herman stated that some days he didn't know what to expect when he would call a number. The band would open up improvising a head arrangement. I recall pianist Nat Pierce tell me once that the band really caught fire on some well known numbers with only faint signposts as to what they actually were, and as Nat said, Woody would be standing amazed, jaw dropping, as the band carved out entirely new improvised versions of the written material. The band would often yell out afterwards, "Woody! Guess what we did?"
 
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Mat

Sr. Regulator
Staff member
Sr. Regulator
Regulator
Sorry mat but I don't understand the point you are making can you put your thoughts into words

I just cannot understand that "big band playing" (or however you want to call it) doesn't fit your definition of true jazz and "free jazz" does.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I just cannot understand that "big band playing" (or however you want to call it) doesn't fit your definition of true jazz and "free jazz" does.

What is Jazz ?

What do you consider the elements of music that enable it to go under the label of Jazz? lets just stick to instrumental at this stage not vocalists.
For me the first thing is that it must be improvised (I realise there is a bit more to it) and not from a score so this would make it nigh on impossible for a large ensemble to be called a Jazz Band .



Larger Bands.
Dance Bands would go up to 12 plus and had to use scores as do the famous bands that we all know and call Jazz Bands.
What makes a Swing Band and how is it different from a Jazz Band ?
These are a few rambling thought that I have in the hope to stimulate a discussion.
Over to you :cool:

As I said Mat these are my thoughts I consider that Improvisation to be the main stay but there are other things that come into the equation
 

Mat

Sr. Regulator
Staff member
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Well then, Colin. Looks like we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Well then, Colin. Looks like we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
That's OK Mat, so I take it that improvisation is not an essential ingredient as far as you are concerned
 

Mat

Sr. Regulator
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That's OK Mat, so I take it that improvisation is not an essential ingredient as far as you are concerned

It's important and exciting and actually one of the main reasons I listen to jazz, but I don't consider it a deciding factor.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
@ Colin, do you mean that the improvisation is continuous throughout the work and by all members at the same time? I think that would be near impossible except for solo performances or extensively practised or frequently performed work. In the case of a big band why not think of it as the arranger doing the improvisation with the whole band as his instrument?

In a piano trio say, will the bass and drums be continuously improvising? I suggest not, though each may do so when they have the solo spot, whereupon the piano will usually provide some backing even if only occasional chords.

Do you consider the MJQ as jazz, I'm sure a lot of their work is at least partly scored, maybe not to the extent that they have sheet music in front of them when performing, but in practice, to quote Krummhorn's sig "an amateur practices until he gets it right a professional practices until he can't get it wrong".

Improvisation is a major ingredient, but not continuous throughout the work. The Rhythm section must for the most part stick to providing a consistent background, apart from any solos.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
@ Colin, do you mean that the improvisation is continuous throughout the work and by all members at the same time? I think that would be near impossible except for solo performances or extensively practised or frequently performed work.
in a trio it is so easy to improvise the drummer does different patterns the base plays around within the chord the piano will improvise on the melody, they don't have to the choice is theirs.
In the case of a big band why not think of it as the arranger doing the improvisation with the whole band as his instrument?
once it is written it ceases to be improvisation
In a piano trio say, will the bass and drums be continuously improvising? I suggest not, though each may do so when they have the solo spot, whereupon the piano will usually provide some backing even if only occasional chords.
I think I have provided an answer to that bit Mike
Do you consider the MJQ as jazz, I'm sure a lot of their work is at least partly scored, maybe not to the extent that they have sheet music in front of them when performing, but in practice, to quote Krummhorn's sig "an amateur practices until he gets it right a professional practices until he can't get it wrong".
Yes they are Jazz in my book and one of the best. They have played their numbers so many times they do not need any form of score and I would wager that they never use one in practice and they are free to improvise that is the point
Improvisation is a major ingredient, but not continuous throughout the work. The Rhythm section must for the most part stick to providing a consistent background, apart from any solos.
The bass and drums can and do improvise it does not mean that they change the beat. all of this gets harder with more musicians seven is an ideal number for this sort of thing, I am not saying that improvisation is the only criteria.I have taken the liberty of quoting my earlier post

That is the whole point it is not written music thus they are free to improvise that means on the spot immediately at will. Can’t do this if you are reading unless instructed to.
@Mike all jazz (perhaps not free jazz) follows chord sequences that are ingrained in the memory and in general these are followed but a soloist can lead the group into an entirely different direction and rhythm and change key many times during a number as in a Jam session. None of this is possible if you are playing from a score. And yes soloist can repeat past solos in small or large ens BUT they don’t have to it is up to them.
 

OLDUDE

New member
I doubt whether true improvisation has ever played a major role in jazz (and ever then
was due to players forgetting the music).
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I doubt whether true improvisation has ever played a major role in jazz (and ever then
was due to players forgetting the music).
Oh come on John........ have you been in a Jazz Club?
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Yeah Colin but how many times have they been over the same "improvisation"

Could you expand on that a bit John e.g.
Do you mean individually or as a group and they are repeating certain phrases or repeating the complete number note for note or something else entirely?
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Let me help,
Below is taken from an online article by Chris Dobrian. An American professor of Music
an improviser can make musical reference to an earlier point in time, but that reference cannot erase the earlier point in time, it can only modify its meaning by referring to it at a later time That new reference must also be part of the improvised piece. On the other hand, the very fact that improvised music is, by definition, made up on the spot means that it can be continually monitored and adapted to the circumstances of the moment. Composed music has, by definition, previously fixed elements which cannot possibly respond to unforeseen conditions of a later time. The real time nature of improvisation gives it strengths and weaknesses which are different from--at times even the exact opposite of--those of composition.
The complete article is a good but longish read http://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/CD.comp.improv.htm
 
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