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GrandOrgue rev 1331 with demo organ posted on SF
- Thread starter JLD
- Start date
wehtam721
New member
Sorry for not posting the ODF examples from the start. Here's what I've tried.
[Tremulant001]
Function=And
SwitchCount=1
Switch001=027
...
[Switch027]
Name=Tremblant
DisplayInInvertedState=N
Displayed=Y
DefaultToEngaged=N
DispDrawstopCol=4
DispDrawstopRow=4
DispLabelColour=Black
DispLabelFontSize=Large
DispImageNum=6
When loading the organ, GrandOrgue gives the error "Out of range value at section 'Tremulant001' entry 'SwitchCount': 1
The exact same implementation worked for the couplers without any other additions. Do tremulants require additional "NumberOfSwitches=" and "Switch999=999" lines in some other place? I have tried adding/adjusting these lines for the affected manuals and for the windchest (thinking that it might be the parent of the tremulant) but haven't had any luck. The same error message is given regardless.
[Tremulant001]
Function=And
SwitchCount=1
Switch001=027
...
[Switch027]
Name=Tremblant
DisplayInInvertedState=N
Displayed=Y
DefaultToEngaged=N
DispDrawstopCol=4
DispDrawstopRow=4
DispLabelColour=Black
DispLabelFontSize=Large
DispImageNum=6
When loading the organ, GrandOrgue gives the error "Out of range value at section 'Tremulant001' entry 'SwitchCount': 1
The exact same implementation worked for the couplers without any other additions. Do tremulants require additional "NumberOfSwitches=" and "Switch999=999" lines in some other place? I have tried adding/adjusting these lines for the affected manuals and for the windchest (thinking that it might be the parent of the tremulant) but haven't had any luck. The same error message is given regardless.
Last edited:
e9925248
New member
Its a GO bug. Fixed in r1341.
PS:
A ASIO free installer of r1341 should be available soon:
https://build.opensuse.org/package/...w/mingw32-grandorgue?repository=openSUSE_12.2
https://build.opensuse.org/package/...w/mingw64-grandorgue?repository=openSUSE_12.2
[Either register and download the exe directly or extract the exe with 7zip from the installer rpm]
PS:
A ASIO free installer of r1341 should be available soon:
https://build.opensuse.org/package/...w/mingw32-grandorgue?repository=openSUSE_12.2
https://build.opensuse.org/package/...w/mingw64-grandorgue?repository=openSUSE_12.2
[Either register and download the exe directly or extract the exe with 7zip from the installer rpm]
wehtam721
New member
I've finished with all of the revisions that I had in mind for the demo set. The revised set is posted as a .zip and a .7z file at the respective links below. It's the same set of files once extracted, so you just have to choose which compression format you prefer. The .7z file is about 42MB, the .zip file is about 58MB.
http://mwoznicki.yourhda.com/GrandOrgue/demo.zip
http://mwoznicki.yourhda.com/GrandOrgue/demo.7z
To use the revised demo, you'll need to be running at least revision 1341 of GrandOrgue because the demo uses switches with the tremulant and this requires the bug fix released in 1341.
Changes include the following:
Addition of 6 ODF preset, and unchangeable via GUI generals
Addition of 10 references on the main panel to the setter generals for user settable generals
Addition of references for the set and general cancel on the main panel
Addition of drawstop and blower sound effects (and the switches to make them work) - The effect stops are defined on a third, non-displayed manual
Addition of a new panel for effects on/off controls
Reduction of sample rate of samples to allow for additional samples per stop without significantly increasing size on disk
Change from two samples per octave to four (D, D#, G#, A)
I used all of the same ranks from Kalvtrask that were used in the original demo set and the drawstop and motor effects also come from Kalvtrask. To my ears, the down-sampling doesn't impact the sound quality of the samples so much that it is distracting, while having four samples per octave (and only having to shift +/- 200 cents) takes care of the hiss that was previously audible. To me, I much prefer the down-sampling to the hiss.
Uncompressed, the set now comes to 88.5MB, which is about 7.5MB larger than the previous set. This is due to samples being added to allow for the drawstop and motor effects (about 5MB) and variability in the size and number of samples used (2.5 MB). I know that ideally it would have been nice to not have the demo set be any larger than it previously was, but I think that the increase in size on disk is reasonable considering that the addition of samples was necessary for the various effects. If this is problematic, the size could be trimmed down by using only one drawstop wave file and shortening up the sustain section of the motor wave file.
In any event, I welcome any feedback from anyone that tries the set! Let me know if there's anything that you think should be done differently or if there's anything else that would be helpful to add. I look forward to your comments.
Take care,
Matt
http://mwoznicki.yourhda.com/GrandOrgue/demo.zip
http://mwoznicki.yourhda.com/GrandOrgue/demo.7z
To use the revised demo, you'll need to be running at least revision 1341 of GrandOrgue because the demo uses switches with the tremulant and this requires the bug fix released in 1341.
Changes include the following:
Addition of 6 ODF preset, and unchangeable via GUI generals
Addition of 10 references on the main panel to the setter generals for user settable generals
Addition of references for the set and general cancel on the main panel
Addition of drawstop and blower sound effects (and the switches to make them work) - The effect stops are defined on a third, non-displayed manual
Addition of a new panel for effects on/off controls
Reduction of sample rate of samples to allow for additional samples per stop without significantly increasing size on disk
Change from two samples per octave to four (D, D#, G#, A)
I used all of the same ranks from Kalvtrask that were used in the original demo set and the drawstop and motor effects also come from Kalvtrask. To my ears, the down-sampling doesn't impact the sound quality of the samples so much that it is distracting, while having four samples per octave (and only having to shift +/- 200 cents) takes care of the hiss that was previously audible. To me, I much prefer the down-sampling to the hiss.
Uncompressed, the set now comes to 88.5MB, which is about 7.5MB larger than the previous set. This is due to samples being added to allow for the drawstop and motor effects (about 5MB) and variability in the size and number of samples used (2.5 MB). I know that ideally it would have been nice to not have the demo set be any larger than it previously was, but I think that the increase in size on disk is reasonable considering that the addition of samples was necessary for the various effects. If this is problematic, the size could be trimmed down by using only one drawstop wave file and shortening up the sustain section of the motor wave file.
In any event, I welcome any feedback from anyone that tries the set! Let me know if there's anything that you think should be done differently or if there's anything else that would be helpful to add. I look forward to your comments.
Take care,
Matt
e9925248
New member
I would move the effect stops to their normal manual and drop the invisible manual. Instead I would create a seperate windchest for the effect stops and name all windchest.
Maybe we can also find more describing labels for the fixed combinations.
After playing a few minutes with it:
I would increase the volume of the first cornet rank, while dropping it a bit for the third rank. Plein Jeu III changes in my option its volume to much around c'.
Maybe we can also find more describing labels for the fixed combinations.
After playing a few minutes with it:
I would increase the volume of the first cornet rank, while dropping it a bit for the third rank. Plein Jeu III changes in my option its volume to much around c'.
wehtam721
New member
I have updated the ODF to reflect the changes Martin suggested above. Both of the links I have provided above have been updated and now include the updated ODF. If you've already downloaded the samples and just want to download the new ODF, I'm attaching it here too.
Regarding the two mixtures. Let me know if they seem better to you now or if they still need adjustment. I think the Plein Jeu III at least seems more balanced across the whole range.
Regarding the labels for the fixed combinations, I'm open to any suggestions for a way to do this better. Again, I welcome any feedback.
Take care,
Matt
Regarding the two mixtures. Let me know if they seem better to you now or if they still need adjustment. I think the Plein Jeu III at least seems more balanced across the whole range.
Regarding the labels for the fixed combinations, I'm open to any suggestions for a way to do this better. Again, I welcome any feedback.
Take care,
Matt
Bumblebee001
Guest
New odf fails to load
The new odf gives an error: Out of Range value at section 'Tremulant001' entry SwitchCount':1
(I see this issue was already reported!)
but the demo does not load!
_____________________________
The new odf gives an error: Out of Range value at section 'Tremulant001' entry SwitchCount':1
(I see this issue was already reported!)
but the demo does not load!
_____________________________
Last edited:
wehtam721
New member
The demo set won't load under any revision of GO before revision 1341 because of the bug that existed before this revision. I'm providing here an ODF which can be used as a workaround for older revisions for testing purposes so that the widest audience can test out the new demo organ. Be aware, however, that using this ODF, the tremulant will not have a drawstop effect like all of the other drawstops do. I removed the drawstop effect as a workaround for older revisions of GO.
The ODF posted above loads without warnings for me in revision 1341. If you're actually running revision 1341 and it's loading with an error, that would be something to look into. Otherwise, it's expected that the above ODF won't load in previous revisions. In that case, use the workaround below instead until you can download and install a more recent build of GO.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you're able to load the set!
Take care,
Matt
The ODF posted above loads without warnings for me in revision 1341. If you're actually running revision 1341 and it's loading with an error, that would be something to look into. Otherwise, it's expected that the above ODF won't load in previous revisions. In that case, use the workaround below instead until you can download and install a more recent build of GO.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you're able to load the set!
Take care,
Matt
Last edited:
Bumblebee001
Guest
Where do I find GO 1341? The latest I see is 1340!
The demo set won't load under any revision of GO before revision 1341 because of the bug that existed before this revision. I'm providing here an ODF which can be used as a workaround for older revisions for testing purposes so that the widest audience can test out the new demo organ. Be aware, however, that using this ODF, the tremulant will not have a drawstop effect like all of the other drawstops do. I removed the drawstop effect as a workaround for older revisions of GO.
The ODF posted above loads without warnings for me in revision 1341. If you're actually running revision 1341 and it's loading with an error, that would be something to look into. Otherwise, it's expected that the above ODF won't load in previous revisions. In that case, use the workaround below instead until you can download and install a more recent build of GO.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you're able to load the set!
Take care,
Matt
erikds
New member
Bumblebee001
Guest
e9925248
New member
I'll wait for a ACK from Lars before commiting. During commiting, I want to merge the copyright statement from the current demo organ. If you want to get added to the contributor list, you need to supply the necessary information (https://sourceforge.net/p/ourorgan/svn/1341/tree/trunk/AUTHORS).
The plein jeu issue is gone.
In my opion, the cornet is still to sharp. Trompette + octavin are very loud while most other stops mask the hauptbois.
My attempt to improve that a little bit resulted in the following amplitudes:
Montre: 150
Cornet 3rd rank: 75
Octavin 2: 80
Hautbois: 374
Trompette: 150
Plein jeu still sound to "sharp" for me - but that is a more complex problem.
Creating a dispostion of a organ and the voicing of the pipes is a totally new topic for me - so any help or explantions, why I am wrong, are welcome.
For the next revision, I would probably recommend unsharing the pipes between a few stops (eg. Montre + Prestant, Trompette + Clarion) into two ranks (still loading from the same sample file). This would allow to voice them individually.
The plein jeu issue is gone.
In my opion, the cornet is still to sharp. Trompette + octavin are very loud while most other stops mask the hauptbois.
My attempt to improve that a little bit resulted in the following amplitudes:
Montre: 150
Cornet 3rd rank: 75
Octavin 2: 80
Hautbois: 374
Trompette: 150
Plein jeu still sound to "sharp" for me - but that is a more complex problem.
Creating a dispostion of a organ and the voicing of the pipes is a totally new topic for me - so any help or explantions, why I am wrong, are welcome.
For the next revision, I would probably recommend unsharing the pipes between a few stops (eg. Montre + Prestant, Trompette + Clarion) into two ranks (still loading from the same sample file). This would allow to voice them individually.
wehtam721
New member
I am relatively new to the topic of voicing as well so, as I have said in earlier posts, I'm completely open to anyone's suggestions about the voicing (or any other aspects) of the demo organ.
I have just done some playing with the amplitudes that you suggested. I completely agree with your remarks about the Trompette and Octavin. This was an error on my part due to having changed out some samples several times and forgetting to readjust the amplitudes accordingly. I also agree that the Hautbois should be stronger than it was. I have edited the ODF to reflect the amplitudes given in your post above for all of the stops.
Regarding the mixtures, if anyone has some suggestions about how to tone them down appropriately, I'd be happy to take a look at it. Being that they're composed of the other ranks I'm not sure if there's a good way to go about improving them. Any suggestions are welcome.
I had thought of unsharing as well and I would be happy to do this too. Would it be beneficial to remove all sharing or are there some ranks that should still be shared?
I'll wait to post an ODF with the updated amplitudes (as this is a minor change) until I do the work of unsharing the ranks. I'll wait to hear back about the rank sharing before I jump into that.
I have just done some playing with the amplitudes that you suggested. I completely agree with your remarks about the Trompette and Octavin. This was an error on my part due to having changed out some samples several times and forgetting to readjust the amplitudes accordingly. I also agree that the Hautbois should be stronger than it was. I have edited the ODF to reflect the amplitudes given in your post above for all of the stops.
Regarding the mixtures, if anyone has some suggestions about how to tone them down appropriately, I'd be happy to take a look at it. Being that they're composed of the other ranks I'm not sure if there's a good way to go about improving them. Any suggestions are welcome.
I had thought of unsharing as well and I would be happy to do this too. Would it be beneficial to remove all sharing or are there some ranks that should still be shared?
I'll wait to post an ODF with the updated amplitudes (as this is a minor change) until I do the work of unsharing the ranks. I'll wait to hear back about the rank sharing before I jump into that.
L.Palo
New member
Hi!
For some reason I cannot download the demo (I get an authorization required popup every time I try) from here. Also I'm pretty busy still so I've not bothered too much about it yet. Feel free to commit the changes if they are better in audio quality, I'm absolutely not pedantic about keeping the samplerate 44100 if 22050 is better overall for the current application. If the changes are in the svn then I sure can get the new version to test it.
One thing that's important when using four samples an octave is to respect the C/C# windchest layout when doing the stretching. I've not seen what you've done with it yet but the Bureå choir organ has examples of how it should be done. If this is done correctly already then it's just fine.
It's quite important to keep the sharing as much as possible to avoid phase issues. It's fine to re-use without sharing the samples if they are re-tuned in the process (preferrably to another harmonic like a quinte or third as octaves tend to be too similar!) and usually have their amplitude changed as well. My first extended version of Kalvträsk (a long time ago) suffered from note cancellation issues so I'm a bit sensitive to it nowadays. It's very important that the 8 and 4 foot versions of the same rank can be played together without issues! If things are not good enough I'd say that we need more (different) samples...
When it comes to thoughts about voicing you'll rarely get two voicers to have the same opinion on how it should be done even with real pipe organs! The samples (if you used only the stops from the new extended Kalvträsk set) come from an instrument in late romantic Swedish style - thus it won't really correspond to the French style hinted at with the current disposition. The Oboe is much softer than a French Basson-Hautbois for instance. Also the Corno is much more mellow than a French Trompette. It's just some of the small things one will have to accept if the current samples are used.
The worst part about the plein-jeu in my first demo version was that it had an ugly excess reverbration, I think. If that's fixed I'm very happy!
I think that a true appel d'anches system should be implemented too for the demo sampleset though in the French spirit... It's easily done with switches.
Kind regards
Lars P
For some reason I cannot download the demo (I get an authorization required popup every time I try) from here. Also I'm pretty busy still so I've not bothered too much about it yet. Feel free to commit the changes if they are better in audio quality, I'm absolutely not pedantic about keeping the samplerate 44100 if 22050 is better overall for the current application. If the changes are in the svn then I sure can get the new version to test it.
One thing that's important when using four samples an octave is to respect the C/C# windchest layout when doing the stretching. I've not seen what you've done with it yet but the Bureå choir organ has examples of how it should be done. If this is done correctly already then it's just fine.
It's quite important to keep the sharing as much as possible to avoid phase issues. It's fine to re-use without sharing the samples if they are re-tuned in the process (preferrably to another harmonic like a quinte or third as octaves tend to be too similar!) and usually have their amplitude changed as well. My first extended version of Kalvträsk (a long time ago) suffered from note cancellation issues so I'm a bit sensitive to it nowadays. It's very important that the 8 and 4 foot versions of the same rank can be played together without issues! If things are not good enough I'd say that we need more (different) samples...
When it comes to thoughts about voicing you'll rarely get two voicers to have the same opinion on how it should be done even with real pipe organs! The samples (if you used only the stops from the new extended Kalvträsk set) come from an instrument in late romantic Swedish style - thus it won't really correspond to the French style hinted at with the current disposition. The Oboe is much softer than a French Basson-Hautbois for instance. Also the Corno is much more mellow than a French Trompette. It's just some of the small things one will have to accept if the current samples are used.
The worst part about the plein-jeu in my first demo version was that it had an ugly excess reverbration, I think. If that's fixed I'm very happy!
I think that a true appel d'anches system should be implemented too for the demo sampleset though in the French spirit... It's easily done with switches.
Kind regards
Lars P
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wehtam721
New member
I believe this should be fixed. Feel free to try again. It's working again on my end now. I was making some adjustments to my server earlier today and unfortunately forgot to properly set some settings. Thanks for alerting me to the problem!
I believe that this is done correctly, but I would be happy to have somebody double check me on this.
I have had this experience as well. I'll look into some ways to avoid this and give it a try.
I'm not overly familiar with this system, but I'll look into it and look into adding it to the demo also.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and let me know if you have any more troubles downloading from the links I gave above.
Take care,
Matt
Mathbob
New member
I just downloaded and installed the latest from SF. Went well and the demo is nice. Fortunately, the download did not wipe out the GO I had before (3.0.5 I think) - they both exist in the same folder and share at least the "more recent" file list. But ... maybe I have missed something somewhere. When loading any of the existing .organ files (which still work on the old GO version), virtually all of them produce a truckload of errors when trying to load. Do I need to convert the ODF's or something?
Thanks! Bob
Thanks! Bob
L.Palo
New member
Hi!
Lots of stuff has happened since the 0.3.0.5 days... See for instance http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/17443-supress-log-window-go3.html#post162813 for how to deal with the log window warnings. Also make sure to check if there are updates to the samplesets, some might already have been corrected. But in short - fix the odfs!
Kind regards
Lars P
Lots of stuff has happened since the 0.3.0.5 days... See for instance http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/17443-supress-log-window-go3.html#post162813 for how to deal with the log window warnings. Also make sure to check if there are updates to the samplesets, some might already have been corrected. But in short - fix the odfs!
Kind regards
Lars P