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New sampleset for evaluation

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

As evaluation of an idea to implement another feature in GrandOrgue for simulating multiple attack samples I've put together a small demo sampleset that mimic this idea. It's for the time being available at http://www.familjenpalo.se/sites/default/files/sampleset/FadeDemo.zip for testing. As this is experimental it's unlikely that I'll host that sampleset forever...

It would be helpful though if you could download it and test comparing the stops marked as Fade with the original ones (on a different manual). Please post your observations so that we can decide if this is a feature worth spending time on or not.

Carefully compare the attacks and it's perhaps best to disable the release scaling feature to not be distracted by it, but you can safely keep the current randomize pipe speaking feature active if you so wish.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Lars !
Just seeing this and downloading at once.
I did some experiments here with multiple attacks, during the Platania organ processing and wasn't totally satisfied by my results, possibly because of few double or triple samples of the same pipe I had at hand from Mark. So I haven't implement these on the Platania set for GO (still under development).
I'll test and post back asap !
The idea is good , simply because when we do a sample set as we so far doin', we deliver a certain picture of the instrument at a certain day (s). As these instruments change dramatically day by day, month by month, having different attack samples of the same pipe can give the impression of a more close to reality reproduction.
Let's see.
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi Panos!

Yes, please test it and come with feedback. But remember that this is just a demonstration sampleset for a possible feature to simulate multiple attacks. If implemented in GO we could have a more random attack pattern also in time even if only one attack sample is present. However, there's always a question if this is worth persuing or not. Personally I think that having multiple attacks is a great bonus for greater variance in sound and the best is if they really are multi sampled from the instrument in question.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Yep, I think it does.
For example, on HQ top of the line samplers (EWQL SO, Kontakt5, Independence 3.1, there are more, but these 3 are here anyway LOL) they got this Round Robin feature, which indeed is high realistic, especially on repetitive notes. In some libraries there are even 4 different samples of the same note ! so each time you hit the same note a different sample is on, in a circle like... 1,2,3,4,1,3,2,4,3,1,4,2 ect Even a simpler 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 would make some big difference from 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
Of course it depends on the instrument in question, I mean if really there is a difference on hitting the same note each time on it.
I downloaded your test set in a pc with no GO inside :-( I got it now on a stick... tomorrow I'll install it on mine and start play/test.
Till tomorrow
Best
P
 

oleg68

New member
Hi, Lars!

I've downloaded and tested the Fade demo, but could not find any difference in sound between the first and the second manual.

How does this feature work? Does it depends on any GO settings? Should it depend on the NoteOn velocity?
 

L.Palo

New member
As the readme file explain the lower manual has multiple attacks created by cutting and fading into the start of the tone by different values. This is a way to create a random tone buildup that I thought might be possible to implement in GO as an enhancement feature that will mimic having multiple sampled attacks (a much more realistic approach but also more resource consuming) even if in reality there's only one. The attacks are chosen randomly but it would be possible to have attacks chosen by velocity.

However, it's questionable if such a feature is worth spending time on so it was suggested that I created this sampleset so that we could get feedback from users and could make a better decision wheter to implement it or ditch it. So far there are not many voices in favour of this approach.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

oleg68

New member
Seems multiple attack samples chosen by velocity - a good idea for sampling piano, not for organ.

Multiple attacks with random choose - for simulation an organ that has not been repaired during a time.
 

L.Palo

New member
Multiple attacks with random choose - for simulation an organ that has not been repaired during a time.

No, not really. Rather a simulation of the fact that only in electronic organs you'll have the exact same tone build-up from one attack to the next. In real life, especially with tracker action, the variance can be clearly audible. Some may regard it as subtle, but then again it's very much depending on how refined listening skills one have developed.

or possibility in preferences to activate/deactivate the feature

Certainly. If it ever gets included...

Kind regards

Lars P
 

oleg68

New member
In real life, especially with tracker action, the variance can be clearly audible.
If you are talking about the attack sound, its variance is not random and depends on the manner of pressing the key. MIDI keyboards (even with druckpunkt) do not have capability of encoding the full pressing curve. They can only transfer the velocity.
 

L.Palo

New member
its variance is not random and depends on the manner of pressing the key

I can agree that with mechanical action and slider/pallet windchests most of the variance comes from the playing fingers way of opening the pallet (intended expression!). Thus it's generally possible to repeate more or less the same effect as one as a performer wants to get with the attack. But anyway, you're wrong about there not being anything random about how the wind makes a pipe speak. Why otherwise can one get a pipe to occasionally overblow and a repetition later speak the fundamental? Some might argue that it's poor voicing, and it could be so on occasion, but still it does happen! Especially the non harmonic attack transients can also vary in a not predictable way. Add to this the effects of a living wind supply (lively wind) instead of a dead steady (but also completely lifeless) and the turbulence that's created when the wind is pushed through the pipe mouth (lower lips).

Anyway, I've sampled enough pipes in real organs locaded in churches that I know that even the steady tone may vary (very) slightly even if I record multiple attacks in sequence. Many times it's clearly visible in audio editors too. I'd guess that it would take a special mechanical setup in an acoustically controlled room (laboratory) to eliminate any variance at all and that's not going to be similar to a truly musical instrument any more.

That MIDI keyboards are a pretty crude means to reproduce organ or piano keyboard touch is beyond question. They have their own uses though and as they are very cheap and portable, that merits them for certain specific tasks like for instance serving us in a VPO setup at home. But you're indeed very right in that the attack velocity of MIDI keyboards as the only parameter is quite limited compared to real life, but it's commonly available and can already be used in GrandOrgue if a sampleset producer so wishes.

Kind regards

Lars P
 
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