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Thread: Lets liven things up a bit on MIMF...

  1. #16
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    @Mike Mike that is the trouble with history it’s just one thing after another.

    @CD When you say “first being of the universe” are you implying there was a universe before this being existed if so how did the UV come into existence? If you believe that the first being created the UV when was it created. I refrain from using the name “God” as it means different things to different religions and may confuse things I mean no disrespect.
    Last edited by JHC; May-23-2014 at 12:00. Reason: V replaced N
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  2. #17
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Dear friends,

    I share another thought:

    I’d say a world in which this story is true would be a truly magnificent possible world. It would be so good that no world could be appreciably better. But then the best worlds contain sin and suffering.
    Last edited by Krummhorn; May-26-2014 at 20:13. Reason: changed fount color
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  3. #18
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    Dear friends,

    I share another thought:

    I’d say a world in which this story is true would be a truly magnificent possible world. It would be so good that no world could be appreciably better. But then the best worlds contain sin and suffering.
    Now listen ye here comrade, you avoid answering my questions ???? so lets liven it up a bit an give the natives a show
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  4. #19
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Another item to bring into the discussion:

    Some atheists seem to think that a sufficient reason for atheism is the fact (as they say) that we no longer need God to explain natural phenomena — lightning and thunder for example. We now have science. As a justification of atheism, this is pretty lame. We no longer need the moon to explain or account for lunacy; it hardly follows that belief in the nonexistence of the moon (a-moonism?) is justified. A-moonism on this ground would be sensible only if the sole ground for belief in the existence of the moon was its explanatory power with respect to lunacy. (And even so, the justified attitude would be agnosticism with respect to the moon, not a-moonism.) The same thing goes with belief in God: Atheism on this sort of basis would be justified only if the explanatory power of theism were the only reason for belief in God. And even then, agnosticism would be the justified attitude, not atheism.
    Last edited by Krummhorn; May-26-2014 at 20:14. Reason: changed fount color to more readable
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  5. #20
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Dorsetmike's Avatar
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    As there is no way to prove or disprove religious beliefs in the existence of a god or other creator, I will remain an agnostic.
    Cheers MIKE.

    How many roads must a man walk down ... ... before he admits he's lost?

  6. #21
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    An addition to the discussion:

    The most important ground of belief is probably not philosophical argument but religious experience. Many people of very many different cultures have thought themselves in experiential touch with a being worthy of worship. They believe that there is such a person, but not because of the explanatory prowess of such belief. Or maybe there is something like Calvin’s sensus divinitatis. Indeed, if theism is true, then very likely there is something like the sensus divinitatis. So claiming that the only sensible ground for belief in God is the explanatory quality of such belief is substantially equivalent to assuming atheism.



    EDIT:
    CD, black on dark blue is almost impossible to read. When you want to use a text from an outside source,
    please make sure to adjust its font color before you post it (you can always use the "Preview Post" feature).
    In order to do so highlight the text, click on the "A" icon and choose "Automatic".



    Last edited by Mat; May-27-2014 at 21:35. Reason: font color change
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  7. #22
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    As far as I am concerned the existence of a creator and religion are not the same thing, they obviously are to various religions.
    The big question that I find interesting is
    1. whether the UV just happened
    2. was it indeed made to happen
    A third point is what is the purpose of life because it seem to pop up all over the place and is hell bent on evolving to survive.
    I don’t want a signature any more

  8. #23
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Br. Colin,

    I rejoice and am very happy that you are asking very hard questions - It is the hallmark of one who truly seeks out the truth - God Bless you dear sir.............

    Something more to consider:

    Thomas Nagel, a terrific philosopher and an unusually perceptive atheist, says he simply doesn’t want there to be any such person as God. And it isn’t hard to see why. For one thing, there would be what some would think was an intolerable invasion of privacy: God would know my every thought long before I thought it. For another, my actions and even my thoughts would be a constant subject of judgment and evaluation.

    Basically, these come down to the serious limitation of human autonomy posed by theism. This desire for autonomy can reach very substantial proportions, as with the German philosopher Heidegger, who, according to Richard Rorty, felt guilty for living in a universe he had not himself created. Now there’s a tender conscience! But even a less monumental desire for autonomy can perhaps also motivate atheism.
    Last edited by Krummhorn; May-28-2014 at 16:14. Reason: edited font color to more readable
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  9. #24
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    Br. Colin,



    Something more to consider:

    Thomas Nagel, a terrific philosopher and an unusually perceptive atheist, says he simply doesn’t want there to be any such person as God. And it isn’t hard to see why. For one thing, there would be what some would think was an intolerable invasion of privacy: God would know my every thought long before I thought it.
    It also raises the old question of "Free will" which that would negate eh. As an engineer I can see the case against the notion of free will but not for the reason of the God that we seem to be discussing.
    I don’t want a signature any more

  10. #25
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Br. Colin,

    I will attend to your questions when I have finished adding all the thoughts I have on my mind in regards to the thread I originated.

    Best regards,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  11. #26
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Friends,

    Yet another item to consider:

    If there are only material entities, then atheism certainly follows. But there is a really serious problem for materialism: It can’t be sensibly believed, at least if, like most materialists, you also believe that humans are the product of evolution.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  12. #27
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    Friends,

    Yet another item to consider:

    If there are only material entities, then atheism certainly follows. But there is a really serious problem for materialism: It can’t be sensibly believed, at least if, like most materialists, you also believe that humans are the product of evolution.
    If there are non material entities what are they made of? and yes I do follow the best explanation yet that we all evolved
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  13. #28
    Commander, Assistant Conductor Albert's Avatar
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    CD I am a theist. My head cannot get around the question "Where did the universe come from." Science is splitting hairs on how many billions of years old the universe is, but what was before? Where did the universe come from? At the same time, I do have problems with "religion" because it seems to me that many religions (including the one I am a member of) seek to control.

  14. #29
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Religion is part of our evolution ....
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  15. #30
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Colin,

    What, praytell, is the best explanation yet that we have evolved...?

    And now comes the next inclusion of information:

    Now, if materialism is true, human beings, naturally enough, are material objects. Now what, from this point of view, would a belief be? My belief than Marcel Proust is more subtle than Louis L’Amour, for example? Presumably this belief would have to be a material structure in my brain, say a collection of neurons that sends electrical impulses to other such structures as well as to nerves and muscles, and receives electrical impulses from other structures. But in addition to such neurophysiological properties, this structure, if it is a belief, would also have to have a content: It would have, say, to be the belief that Proust is more subtle than L’Amour.
    Last edited by Corno Dolce; May-30-2014 at 07:48.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

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