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Thread: Lets liven things up a bit on MIMF...

  1. #31
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Welcome back John Watt...

    Good to see you back. Imho the Universe is very much Alive and living. It is a dynamic and evolving system. Our brother Colin commiserated about that life seems to pop up everywhere, hell-bent on surviving. Of course, all species wish to survive. Some of those species are harmful to us such as Ebola and other vectors that cause Dengue Fever, Malaria, Typhoid Fever and...need I go on? We as humans are equipped with capabilities that animals don't have. We are fearfully and wonderfully made - the Apex of Creation. What we do with ourselves and how we use our abilities to foster life or destroy life determines very much how benign or how evil we can become.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  2. #32
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    Colin,

    What, praytell, is the best explanation yet that we have evolved...?

    There is no single thingCD but add together all the information that has been gathered by our scientist’s over the years that show the theory of evolution, and day by day we add to it,
    Because evolution takes so long we have not been aware of it and the alterative was to explain it in away that best suited the times (religion, Gods). But today we are beginning to see how evolution works at a basic level and thanks to DNA we can trace our heritage back into the distance past.
    A common trap people fall into including me was to think that because we have about 98% the dna of aMonkey that we must have evolved from them when in fact all it means is we share the same ancestor as do all living things.
    OK we still have a lot to learn but when compared to the theory that some supreme being created us in our present form well, I vote evolution.
    Last edited by Mat; May-31-2014 at 00:21. Reason: fixed quote tag
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  3. #33
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Br. Colin,

    But what started the evolution itself? Could you please share with MIMF how the evolution got started...Surely there must be a verifiable starting point to evolution, eh? We run into problems when humankind is the epicenter of all conceptual and empirical research and evidence, aka Anthroposophy. Then there are those who think it all to be a roll-of-the-dice...That it all just happened by chance...Methinks another Copernican Revolution needs to take place. Again, I am in search of Truth...Truth is absolute, not opinion! How the known Universe and the unknown Universe and life on Earth got started are open questions. Lets not close the questions by positing that Evolution is the answer to it all.

    Now, for another inclusion:

    I’m interested in the fact that beliefs cause (or at least partly cause) actions. For example, my belief that there is a beer in the fridge (together with my desire to have a beer) can cause me to heave myself out of my comfortable armchair and lumber over to the fridge. Here’s the important point: It’s by virtue of its material, neurophysiological properties that a belief causes the action. It’s in virtue of those electrical signals sent via efferent nerves to the relevant muscles, that the belief about the beer in the fridge causes me to go to the fridge. It is not by virtue of the content (there is a beer in the fridge) the belief has.
    Last edited by Corno Dolce; May-31-2014 at 09:42.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  4. #34
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Comrade CD, Are you talking of evolution on our planet ‘Earth” if so I would hazard a guess that it would be around the time that animate matter made an appearance that is only a wild guess and a lot more could be said on that subject. There is a point of view that life on Earth could have been seeded so came from some other place in the UV, you suggest that we do not accept that evolution is the answer to it all and I agree, it goes way beyond that but evolution cannot be denied, we come back to purpose or accident.
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  5. #35
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Dorsetmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Comrade CD, Are you talking of evolution on our planet ‘Earth” if so I would hazard a guess that it would be around the time that animate matter made an appearance that is only a wild guess and a lot more could be said on that subject. There is a point of view that life on Earth could have been seeded so came from some other place in the UV, you suggest that we do not accept that evolution is the answer to it all and I agree, it goes way beyond that but evolution cannot be denied, we come back to purpose or accident.
    The way I see it is that it all happened so long ago that there's nothing we can do about it now, so why waste time and effort worrying about it? Each opinion has its followers many of whom appear to take the stance of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up" so discussion rarely achieves anything except sometimes alienating friends.
    Cheers MIKE.

    How many roads must a man walk down ... ... before he admits he's lost?

  6. #36
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Hi Dorsetmike,

    I can accept your thinking about the discussion in this thread because I once toyed with the same thoughts as you shared. But I can never let myself to just sit down and be quiet - I am extremely inquisitive by dint of character. Conversations run into trouble when they become dogmatic, ergo, not letting open questions remain open questions.
    When open questions are closed, the process of inquiry ceases to exist, which is one of the reasons why the Roman Catholic Church got into so much trouble with its dogged insistence that the Earth was at the center(Geocentric), when in reality the Sun is at the center(Heliocentric). Copernicus faced so much fiery wrath for his discoveries and it wasn't until 1992 the Roman Church fully relented on its previous stance...Mind you, Copernicus was Polish and Pope Karol Woytila(John Paul II) was Polish so it took a Pole to exonerate a Pole ; -D

    And now for the next inclusion:

    Because if this belief — this structure — had a totally different content (even, say, if it was a belief that there is no beer in the fridge) but had the same neurophysiological properties, it would still have caused that same action of going to the fridge. This means that the content of the belief isn’t a cause of the behavior. As far as causing the behavior goes, the content of the belief doesn’t matter.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  7. #37
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Kommissar Kolin,

    The way I see things, there is species specific evolution going on right before our very eyes... e.g. why many pesticides don't even faze certain types of insects that wreak havoc with the food supply. Br. Colin, you mentioned that you are an engineer...God Bless you for having such a noble background.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  8. #38
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    Kommissar Kolin,

    The way I see things, there is species specific evolution going on right before our very eyes... e.g. why many pesticides don't even faze certain types of insects that wreak havoc with the food supply. Br. Colin, you mentioned that you are an engineer...God Bless you for having such a noble background.
    Sorry comrade I was an engineer but changed careers when I landed in NZ and have been retired for a few years now.
    Pesticides are one example so is the bacterial resistance to penicillin, and as you said this is one chance we have of seeing change aka evolution in action. Now I will add something Was there anything before the BB????? Ha got ya.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsetmike View Post
    The way I see it is that it all happened so long ago that there's nothing we can do about it now, so why waste time and effort worrying about it? Each opinion has its followers many of whom appear to take the stance of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up" so discussion rarely achieves anything except sometimes alienating friends.
    Sorry but I can’t agree Mike, I find the subject fascinating and not at all divisive in itself, just another debate and a chance to hear other points of view and if it gets heated so what ?All debates on any subject can do that even music. And the post is headed “lets liven things up on MIMF” you never know I may become religious.
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  9. #39
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Fair question Kommissar Kolin - Let us just remember that Fr. Georges Lemaitre, a Belgian Jesuit Priest had his morning tea with crumpets and then proceeded to establish the notion of the Big Bang, which of course was hotly denied by many scientists and religious observers for many decades. Fred Hoyle had a good run with his Steady-State Theory but even that did not fare well in the process of inquiry. Before the Big Bang? Since there is no "settled science" but lots of conjecture I must leave it as an open question. What do I think personally? Before the Big Bang there is God, who was there before the beginning of Time and Space, who is now with us, and will be after the end of Time and Space. For me, Religion and Science are not mutually exclusive but very much inclusive. Again, we run into problems when the discussions become rigid and dogmatic, when the opposing sides are locked in "mortal combat", unable to walk a fortnight in the opposing sides shoes.

    And now for the final inclusion of discussion material:

    Evolution will have resulted in our having beliefs that are adaptive; that is, beliefs that cause adaptive actions. But as we’ve seen, if materialism is true, the belief does not cause the adaptive action by way of its content: It causes that action by way of its neurophysiological properties. Hence it doesn’t matter what the content of the belief is, and it doesn’t matter whether that content is true or false. All that’s required is that the belief have the right neurophysiological properties. If it’s also true, that’s fine; but if false, that’s equally fine. Evolution will select for belief-producing processes that produce beliefs with adaptive neurophysiological properties, but not for belief-producing processes that produce true beliefs. Given materialism and evolution, any particular belief is as likely to be false as true.Right. In fact, given materialism and evolution, it follows that our belief-producing faculties are not reliable. Here’s why. If a belief is as likely to be false as to be true, we’d have to say the probability that any particular belief is true is about 50 percent. Now suppose we had a total of 100 independent beliefs (of course, we have many more). Remember that the probability that all of a group of beliefs are true is the multiplication of all their individual probabilities. Even if we set a fairly low bar for reliability — say, that at least two-thirds (67 percent) of our beliefs are true — our overall reliability, given materialism and evolution, is exceedingly low: something like .0004. So if you accept both materialism and evolution, you have good reason to believe that your belief-producing faculties are not reliable. But to believe that is to fall into a total skepticism, which leaves you with no reason to accept any of your beliefs (including your beliefs in materialism and evolution!). The only sensible course is to give up the claim leading to this conclusion: that both materialism and evolution are true. Maybe you can hold one or the other, but not both.
    So if you are an atheist simply because you accept materialism, maintaining your atheism means you have to give up your belief that evolution is true. Another way to put it: The belief that both materialism and evolution are true is self-refuting. It shoots itself in the foot. Therefore it can’t rationally be held.


    So dear friends, I have shared what I perceive to be, a part of the process in search of the Truth. Let us remember that Truth is Absolute, not opinion! As you may have noticed, I have not bashed anyone on the head with a smoking gun aka The Bible. I cannot give Faith, only God gives Faith. The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all Wisdom. I have found that when I seek Wisdom from God's hand, He demands that I trust Him first, then He has given me but a small key to unlock a small door which gave and gives me a small view of a part of the Infinite glory of His Kingdom. He demands that I develop my talents, whether it is Astrophysics or Music. Only when I am in the process of developing my talents does He let me peek into His creative process. We will never see the Living God as a Being, for He is like Gamma Radiation, destroying anything and everything that tries to witness Him as a Being. He does not want anyone to imitate Him. Therefore He sent His Son, Jesus Christ who lovingly shared that: "Those who have seen Me have seen the Father."


    Last edited by Corno Dolce; Jun-02-2014 at 08:39.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  10. #40
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Comrade you have posted more than I can get my head around in one sitting and I have an appointment with the Diabelli variations in half an hour, allow me time to think.
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  11. #41
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    You're not alone JHC!!

  12. #42
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    This may come over as muddled but here we go.
    CD,
    You say before the BB there was God so lets work with that and accept that the BB theory is correct, if you wish to forward a different theory that will be fine but will muddy the water, can I add that I do have problems with the BB in that “how is matter created out of nothing” I have read that in controlled conditions matter has been observed to come into existence and also disappear but that is not the same thing sorry I digress.
    From the start we can not prove this ( BB or Creator) one way or the other also we cannot make observations of a time that did not exist so we are only left with questions.
    Why did God make the UV or many UVs was God bored was God just mucking about was it to impress other Gods (if any) etc none of these makes sense to me but as there has never been any evidence of a creator we are left in the dark. The BB gets my vote at the moment.
    Last edited by JHC; Jun-03-2014 at 00:06.
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  13. #43
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Kommissar Kolin,

    We are at the point where science splits hairs about what was "there" before the Big Bang. I mentioned earlier that there is plenty of conjecture from the science community in re before the Big Bang - I must leave it as an open question in re to a scientific explanation of what was before the Big Bang. The way I see it is that God executed a Supreme Action because He can. What I have just said will cause rolling of eyes and choking on coffee but even with my education and research in Astrophysics with all the analytical tools I had to learn and utilize, I cannot explain what or why or how God did what He did. I can only look upon it through Faith. Of course, its is absurd for any rational human being to grapple with something/someone that is so totally beyond control and comprehension.

    When I opened this thread and began sharing discussion material, my aim was to come to terms with atheism and agnosticism. I will never know why people choose one or the other, I can only perceive that atheism and agnosticism always shoots itself in the foot. For me, its a cop-out to hold either of them as a weltanschauung(worldview). When we see the evil that plagues this world, I perceive it as a lack of not being able to relate to something outside of oneself. At the end of the day people will feel comfortable going back to their old habits, be it atheism or agnosticism.
    Last edited by Corno Dolce; Jun-03-2014 at 10:14.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  14. #44
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Dorsetmike's Avatar
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    Much of the "evil that plagues the world" is due to the blinkered views of some religious fanatics, in the past the inquisition and persecution of jews and other minorities and currently the Islamic extremists.
    Cheers MIKE.

    How many roads must a man walk down ... ... before he admits he's lost?

  15. #45
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    It seems we have reverted back to “there is only God” I am surprised to say the least.
    I was looking forward to some enlightening arguments as to why this is so but in the end it is ’belief’ pure and simple and not one shred of a theory to back it up.
    To my way of thinking the belief in a “God” and the belief in “No God at all” belong in the same camp as neither can prove one way or the other at least the agnostic accepts this.
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