Ten Reasons Gay Marriage is Un-American

[Contratrombone64]

Whilst I'm at it ... Bill, might I suggest you read Deuteronomy and contemplete your bodily functions when you're in the desert AND that you ensure you remain outside of your camp (apt) after you have relieved yourself? This kind of comment is almost as risible as YOU pointing out to ME that passage from Romans that was probably apt 3000 years ago (whatever) and is certainly probably not apt now?

 

[Krummhorn]

I am a little hesitant in posting within this thread mainly because of the special badge I wear within MIMF ... but even though some of us are regulators, we are also regular contributing members of Magle forums, and like to participate at times in the various discussions, so that said, my regulator hat is removed for this post.

. . . I wonder if there's any truth in the stereotype that gays are more musical. I do seem to know a disproportionate number of gay musicians. More men than women, come to think of it . . .

In reply to Zlya, I think it is more of a 50/50 spread. One does not have to be homosexual in order to create inspiring music ... I am not homosexual, and yet I am able to be very creative and put lots of feeling into my musical presentations.

I have one question that I have wanted to ask a homosexual for a long time, but I've never talked to one before so I hope this is a good time to pose it. Have any of the proffesing Christian gays ever read Romans 1? And if they have, what do they think of it?
I am also wondering how it is possible to be a Christian and not be born again.
Many thanks---Bill

Bill ... I was born a Christian ... I was reared in a Christian family, baptised as an infant, confirmed as a teenager, and have been practicing Christianity ever since. That said, one does not have to be born again to be Christian, at least imho.

I also do not condemn any human being because of their sexual preferences. I have a good number of gay/lesbian friends in my line of work (church organist). These friends of mine don't impose their lifestyle upon me and I don't impose my lifestyle upon them - we co-exist , everyone is happy, and I find that quite acceptable. We need more love and peace in this world - there's too much hatred, but that's another thread topic.

Kh :trp:

 

[Stronghold]

Now! we have a great debate Hahahah much better than the top ten if you dont mind me saying so.

I love God and I love Jesus,


Jesus saved me from Death

Romans is such a great inspiation to me beacuse God never leaves us hanging so to speak Hahah he loves all his childeren hard to believe isnt it?

Finish reading the book of Romans 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16

Romans chapter 4 vrs.4

4.Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace,but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness.

Impartiality-Romans 3:31

31 Do we then make void the law through faith?God forbid:yea,we establish the law.

Does everyone see what I see? just curious because I see Gods grace and I am so relieved HAhah.

 

[Stronghold]

My point of view as a committed Christian and a gay person.

I have no issue with being gay as it is how I was born. I did NOT make a decision to be socially marginalised, trust me. As to the church's opinion, I'm comfortable that I attend on of the vary rare churches that does not discriminate against its gay congregation ... so much so that we have catholics in the congregation because they feel as welcome at this place as they don't at St. Mary's Cathedral (Sydney).

Also - I'm with the "don't judge or you'll be judged" on this one. I'm comfortable with God and he knows where my heart lies. I've had several exceptionally spiritual happenings in church and these are (I believe) by the grace of the holy spirit (and no, I'm not a born again).

I hope you look into becoming baptized I tell you from my own experiance it will be the best molment of your life God Bless you.

 

[BethWagner]

Wow, I didn't expect quite that uncharitable of a respose. I merely asked a question. Contratrombones 64, I want you to know that I have many times read the book of Deuteronomy and the whole Bible in general. Not under any inspiration of my own, but that of the Holy Spirit.
I want to make something very clear to you "judge not lest you be judged" people.
I am not judging you. God is. I am merely quoting what He has said in His Word. Would you pass judgement on a messanger who brought you bad news from a superior of yours? Is it his fault because he brought you the bad message? Of course not. As a servant of God I only quote that which is of His Word, and none of my own words. I hope that is plain.
As for the comment about the Bible being applicable 3000 years ago, I would like to say simply this: by saying this we are bringing God down to our level. Do you honestly think that 3000 years ago He could not see 3000 years into the future and know what would take place today? Do you honestly believe that the inspired Word of God was for only a certain date in time? If you study the Bible you see that is says clearly that "my words will never pass away" and though heaven and earth pass the Bible will stand forever. I do not believe that homosexuals were created to be like that. God, who condemns it in His Word, would never create someone to have to sin. That is despicable and a lie.
We have God's grace as long as we are willing to repent from our wickedness. We cannot continue in sin and grace will abound.
That being said, you cannot be born a Christian. It is a gift that you have to accept and if you wish, I can give you scripture. We were born into sin and that is why Jesus came that, "whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life" it never says that you were born a Christian.
I will not tolerate sin as long as it is in the world and have committed my life to, however unpopular it is, always preach the Word of God with truth. I do not hate homosexuals----I hate homosexuality.
Bill

 

[Stronghold]

Wow, I didn't expect quite that uncharitable of a respose. I merely asked a question. Contratrombones 64, I want you to know that I have many times read the book of Deuteronomy and the whole Bible in general. Not under any inspiration of my own, but that of the Holy Spirit.
I want to make something very clear to you "judge not lest you be judged" people.
I am not judging you. God is. I am merely quoting what He has said in His Word. Would you pass judgement on a messanger who brought you bad news from a superior of yours? Is it his fault because he brought you the bad message? Of course not. As a servant of God I only quote that which is of His Word, and none of my own words. I hope that is plain.
As for the comment about the Bible being applicable 3000 years ago, I would like to say simply this: by saying this we are bringing God down to our level. Do you honestly think that 3000 years ago He could not see 3000 years into the future and know what would take place today? Do you honestly believe that the inspired Word of God was for only a certain date in time? If you study the Bible you see that is says clearly that "my words will never pass away" and though heaven and earth pass the Bible will stand forever. I do not believe that homosexuals were created to be like that. God, who condemns it in His Word, would never create someone to have to sin. That is despicable and a lie.
We have God's grace as long as we are willing to repent from our wickedness. We cannot continue in sin and grace will abound.
That being said, you cannot be born a Christian. It is a gift that you have to accept and if you wish, I can give you scripture. We were born into sin and that is why Jesus came that, "whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life" it never says that you were born a Christian.
I will not tolerate sin as long as it is in the world and have committed my life to, however unpopular it is, always preach the Word of God with truth. I do not hate homosexuals----I hate homosexuality.
Bill

Bill there is no judgment coming from me to you on your point of view I poromise and I saw the fact that your question was misinturprated by the follow up responses I just wanted to bring to light the full message of Romans and show that there is a larger picture when looking at sin not even going off your statment at all but of the response to your statment because I saw you were just asking a question abought Romans 1 and what thay thought abought it so I was just trying to expand the question to what do you think abought Romans the book and what it says abought sin.

That basically we are all worhty of death for one in Gods eyes and two I hate Sin just as much as you believe me but I heard somthing recently that reminded me of the battle going on that its not are fight so I try my best to not take things personally dosent always work and im not speaking abought you but just in my case but I try my best to remember that its Gods fight against Sin I myself can not look at Sin are be afected by sin on a completly personal level even though it seems varry much like a personal attack which in some casses it is Hahah.

But its Gods fight I ware my armor 24/7 LOL

Lets take a varry good point you made and a truth repentance for example varry important too do and God requires us too do this through Jesus Christ to be forgiven of sins to be clean and forgiven forever with no thought of it again and to turn from are sin right?.

Now that stament is a universall one that apply's to every thought and action that is against God right?

So my point just to share is why pick out one sin to expose and condem and not the rest?

This is relating to the topic thread meaning homosexuality is brought to the forfront in America and presented as a plage which some people really belive it is and in reality in my mind just my openion lying and cheating baring false witness many sins get swept under the rug so to speak and justified by focusing attention on the ones that we just happen not to do.

That is just my point on this matter because I agree fully in repentance but not shaming people into it not speaking to any one indaviduall but to the human condition (add on) - Just wanted to add also and not agin speaking to any one indavidual but just to quote scripture on how I see God fealing abought repentance .

I look to David for this thats why I love David so much is that he has a vary long and intristing story abought him for shure but at the hart of it all he really loved God with all his hart and tryed to please him with his love by living by his word and even he fell short but one pasage I love is.

PSALM 112

 

[Sybarite]

Having grown up in a fundamentalist Christian family, experienced the whole born again thing (and been revoltingly tedious at school as a result), I can only say that it astonishes me to realise how long it took for the shackles of religion to fall from my own shoulders (oh, what a pleasure it is to live a life without being weighed down by guilt – not least about my sexual nature).

I now find it equally astonishing to discover that intelligent people believe – literally – in a contradictory book that was written in bits and pieces, thousands of years ago, and cobbled together in its present form by a variety of people with their own Earthy agendas. A book that, if you read it carefully, has as its central figure a god who encourages rape (on a number of occasions) and apparently condones child abuse, if only in the intent (the possibility of child rape being apparently better than sodomy, since Lot doesn't get punished by God for offering his virgin daughters to two men who might, just might, have had consensual sex together).

The US is not a theocracy – although some people might well want it to be one. Yet at a time when the West in general is worrying about fundamentalist religion and politics in places such as Iran, it seems ironic that the 'leader of the free world' is itself led by a man who makes decisions of government based on his particular theology and who openly uses that religion to garner political support.

 

[Stronghold]

Having grown up in a fundamentalist Christian family, experienced the whole born again thing (and been revoltingly tedious at school as a result), I can only say that it astonishes me to realise how long it took for the shackles of religion to fall from my own shoulders (oh, what a pleasure it is to live a life without being weighed down by guilt – not least about my sexual nature).

I now find it equally astonishing to discover that intelligent people believe – literally – in a contradictory book that was written in bits and pieces, thousands of years ago, and cobbled together in its present form by a variety of people with their own Earthy agendas. A book that, if you read it carefully, has as its central figure a god who encourages rape (on a number of occasions) and apparently condones child abuse, if only in the intent (the possibility of child rape being apparently better than sodomy, since Lot doesn't get punished by God for offering his virgin daughters to two men who might, just might, have had consensual sex together).

The US is not a theocracy – although some people might well want it to be one. Yet at a time when the West in general is worrying about fundamentalist religion and politics in places such as Iran, it seems ironic that the 'leader of the free world' is itself led by a man who makes decisions of government based on his particular theology and who openly uses that religion to garner political support.

Hay thanks for joining the discusion first off..

And would you please post scripture too backup your claims.

And also we are a free thinking people to allow others the freedom to think for theem selfs what I find Ironic in this country meaning the U.S was it was founded in the name of God in the begining of are history within this country and only in the last two to five years has it become an Issue.

But back to the topic what is your openion on Gay lifestyle in America are the UK in your case.

 

[BethWagner]

I find it equally as astonishing that someone might believe that the God who created the whole universe could not, through the ages of time, protect and maintain His Word. I believe it is divinely inspired and no creation of a mere man. I, too, would like to see Scriptures supporting the claims previously stated. No where in Scripture will you find God contradicting Himself. As for the "leader of the free world", if it is who I think it is, you would do well to investigate into his religion and how it came about before you make false assumptions.
In answer to your question, Stronghold, I don't believe that homosexuality is any worse than say, divorce and remarriage. Homosexuality just happened to show up in this forum. I'm not sure though it compares to other sins. God has said that He will judge every man according to his works.
Regards, Bill

 

[Stronghold]

I find it equally as astonishing that someone might believe that the God who created the whole universe could not, through the ages of time, protect and maintain His Word. I believe it is divinely inspired and no creation of a mere man. I, too, would like to see Scriptures supporting the claims previously stated. No where in Scripture will you find God contradicting Himself. As for the "leader of the free world", if it is who I think it is, you would do well to investigate into his religion and how it came about before you make false assumptions.
In answer to your question, Stronghold, I don't believe that homosexuality is any worse than say, divorce and remarriage. Homosexuality just happened to show up in this forum. I'm not sure though it compares to other sins. God has said that He will judge every man according to his works.
Regards, Bill

Hay thanks Bill for your thoughts and divinely inspired I absollutly stand in agreement along with judgment day.


I really have enjoyed this discusion I am not a homosexuall man and the only reason I menshion that is to speak to people that might be to say that I personally dont no what strugles you have gone through in life but in my mind God knows so I would just encourage you to seek him with what ever strif you encounter.

God Bless.

 

[Sybarite]

Hay thanks for joining the discusion first off..

And would you please post scripture too backup your claims.

Happily.

Judges 21:10-24: "So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. 'This is what you are to do,' they said. 'Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.' Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked: 'How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse.'

Then they thought of the annual festival of the Lord held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives: 'Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.' So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

No mention of the women having a choice or having to give consent.


Numbers 31:7-18: "They attacked Midian just as the Lord had commanded Moses and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

Does Moses mention consent?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14: "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labour. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Consent, anyone?


Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Consent, anyone? No – but the victim of a crime is forced to marry the rapist. Nice.


2 Samuel 12:11-14: "Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [note the plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbuor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord.' Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die'."

This is extraordinary. God decides that He will organise the rape of innocent women as a punishment for someone else – and then kills an innocent baby instead.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When you go out to war against your enemies and the Lord, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

This passage even admits that the women don't have to give consent. Now, in the civilised world, sex without consent is rape.

Zechariah 14:1-2: "Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

More rape. And this is apparently "a day … for the Lord".

Genesis 22:1-18: "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."

If anyone did this today, they'd rightly be charged with child abuse – even if they tried to tell the court that it was a test of faith.


Genesis 18:16-19:29: to précis – two male strangers visit Lot. A group of local men arrive and ask to 'meet' them – taken (although possibly badly translated) to mean 'we want to have all-male sex with them'. Instead, Lot, being a nice sort of chap, offers the men his virgin daughters instead.

Now, given that Lot escapes God's punishment for Sodom and Gomorrah – he's apparently the only good man in the area – it seems that offering your female children to be gang raped doesn't count as a sin in God's mind.

... And also we are a free thinking people to allow others the freedom to think for theem selfs what I find Ironic in this country meaning the U.S was it was founded in the name of God in the begining of are history within this country and only in the last two to five years has it become an Issue...

If I understand correctly, the Founding Fathers laid down regulations for the separation of church and state. Presumably for a reason. The idea of the US as "one nation under God" is a recent one, the product of the Cold War.

... But back to the topic what is your openion on Gay lifestyle in America are the UK in your case.

I'm a bisexual woman – that's the perspective that I speak from in matter of sexuality.

As far as I am concerned, as long as sex is between consenting adults, then I do not think that it is anyone else's business what people get up to.

Legislation was passed to allow civil partnerships in the UK 18 months ago, and I think it's one of the few real achievements of this government, not least because it lays down a statement of this being a genuinely equal and tolerant society.

 

[AeroScore]

I do not hate homosexuals----I hate homosexuality.
Bill

Bill, it seems you are in the wrong line of work!

I've been involved with the theatre organ crowd for a long time, and I will say that that if I shared that point of view, I wouldn't be able to function professionally. How can one "hate" homosexuality and still accept the person who practices it? Not gay myself, I have many friends, associates, and teachers who are. Some are also black, some are Jewish. Some are women, some are Asian. What difference?

Intolerance of any stripe is despicable. More so when it is couched in the cloak of respectability that fundamentalism provides. I live my daily life according to Judeo-Christian values (Do unto others, etc), and let people live their lives according to their own moral standards, which in this part of the world (San Francisco Bay Area) are very tolerant. I'm not "born again;" once was quite sufficient. One does not have to be born again to live a life of peace and love. All one needs is the native intelligence (granted by God) and common sense to look around and say, "Hey, I don't want to be treated like that, so I won't treat others like that, either!"

I believe in God, I belong to a Presbytarian Church, I play music for services occasionally, and am great friends with my Pastor. I am also "in touch with my feelings (to use a horribly new-agey expression)," creative, and above all else, musical. This leads many people I meet to make the mistaken assumption that I'm gay. Personally, it bothers me not one whit. But, as an American I have that luxury, and it is a luxury, even here in the States. Many others don't. And that is how sub-cultures are born. Ya can't acknowledge who you are in life? Go underground!

The sooner we as human beings can accept, (if not understand) who we are as individuals, the sooner peace will break out all over the planet.

Or, am I just being a "pollyanna?"

Dean

 

[Stronghold]

Happily.

Judges 21:10-24: "So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. 'This is what you are to do,' they said. 'Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.' Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked: 'How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse.'

Then they thought of the annual festival of the Lord held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives: 'Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.' So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

No mention of the women having a choice or having to give consent.


Numbers 31:7-18: "They attacked Midian just as the Lord had commanded Moses and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

Does Moses mention consent?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14: "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labour. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Consent, anyone?


Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Consent, anyone? No – but the victim of a crime is forced to marry the rapist. Nice.


2 Samuel 12:11-14: "Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [note the plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbuor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord.' Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die'."

This is extraordinary. God decides that He will organise the rape of innocent women as a punishment for someone else – and then kills an innocent baby instead.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When you go out to war against your enemies and the Lord, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

This passage even admits that the women don't have to give consent. Now, in the civilised world, sex without consent is rape.

Zechariah 14:1-2: "Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

More rape. And this is apparently "a day … for the Lord".

Genesis 22:1-18: "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."

If anyone did this today, they'd rightly be charged with child abuse – even if they tried to tell the court that it was a test of faith.


Genesis 18:16-19:29: to précis – two male strangers visit Lot. A group of local men arrive and ask to 'meet' them – taken (although possibly badly translated) to mean 'we want to have all-male sex with them'. Instead, Lot, being a nice sort of chap, offers the men his virgin daughters instead.

Now, given that Lot escapes God's punishment for Sodom and Gomorrah – he's apparently the only good man in the area – it seems that offering your female children to be gang raped doesn't count as a sin in God's mind.



If I understand correctly, the Founding Fathers laid down regulations for the separation of church and state. Presumably for a reason. The idea of the US as "one nation under God" is a recent one, the product of the Cold War.



I'm a bisexual woman – that's the perspective that I speak from in matter of sexuality.

As far as I am concerned, as long as sex is between consenting adults, then I do not think that it is anyone else's business what people get up to.

Legislation was passed to allow civil partnerships in the UK 18 months ago, and I think it's one of the few real achievements of this government, not least because it lays down a statement of this being a genuinely equal and tolerant society.

Here is my awnser to your questions for now take care.

 

[BethWagner]

I would like to thank everyone for their comments and promise to respond fully to them perhaps on Monday or Tuesday as time permits.
For now, maple syruping takes the front burner.
Regards, Bill

 

[Stronghold]

David and Gods punishment ?

To understand the law from the Old testament you must understand the purpose of Jesus and the fulfilment of the new testament I believe.

Gods punishment was harsh but just and when I think of all the factors involed in Gods wisdome which I hold to be far beyond are own understanding I have never found anyware in the word of God that the Lord caused are deemed any event as a munipulation of the lives of the people by his own hand.

Every judgment and action was a direct result of peoples own actions are choices that resulted in personal afliction wether thay were directly involed with the choice are not by allowing certain things to come to pass.

The child - I belive that the lord saved him from living a life of hardship and in my mind God is the creator of soals so he just took him home from were he came but clearly he was used as a punishment for David to show him how badly he messed up and even still it was a judment from Davids action like you say for his sin and not as a personal attack on David for no reason- (After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that
Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill.) God shows hes no respecter of persons from all of us I believe does God do that today as punishment for braking the law to punish people ?

Well no because of Jesus Christ we now have a direct link to God through his son Jesus my sin is forgiven me by the blood of Christ wiped away clean prais God.

Prime example of this is war-God does not start war people do and as a result many other people are affected that have no say so in the matter that is now and forever human nature as a creature of sin reguardless of the events involved to bring abought war im speaking directly to conflict and not the decision itself of procliaiming war.

Below is a sermon that offers which I find amazing and ironic a full circle right back to Jesus and explains alot in terms of the law and how God restored are relationship with himself through the sacrifice of his son.


Good morning. I read something so interesting. Did you know that
scientists now think that birds learn how to sing from other birds? We
might think that birds are born knowing how to sing, but that may not be
true. Scientists have raised certain birds away from any others of their
own kind, and these birds are unable to sing the songs that other birds of
their species are able to sing.

Indeed the scientists who raised such birds were able to teach them parts
of a popular song to replace the song that they would have learned from
other birds. Left alone, a bird like this without knowing the right song
would always be lonely, because bird songs are involved in finding a mate.

Did you know there are many things in life you and I must learn, just like
birds -like what things are good for us and what things are bad for us -
what things are safe and what things are dangerous--and many, many other
things. That is why God gives us special people in our lives -parents,
grandparents, and other special people, to help us learn just as they
learned many years ago when they were our age. This is Father's Day and we
especially honour our Dads. But we also honour all those adults who help
us learn and grow to be the kind of people we ought to be. Remember this,
if a bird has to learn to sing from other birds, there are certainly some
things we need to learn if we are going to be the kind of people we ought
to be.


PRAYER AND THE LORD'S PRAYER
Lord God - we thank you for our father - and for the other people in
our life - who show us how to live. - We pray that you may give them
- the good things that they need - and help them to be - loving and
faithful - as you yourself are. We ask it in the name of your son
Jesus. - Amen.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom
come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this
day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive
those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but
deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the
glory, for ever and ever. Amen





A READING FROM II SAMUEL 11:26 -12:15
(NIV) When Uriah's wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned
for him. {27} After the time of mourning was over, David had her
brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But
the thing David had done displeased the LORD.

The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There
were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. {2} The
rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, {3} but the poor
man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it,
and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank
from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
{4} "Now a traveller came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained
from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the
traveller who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that
belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to
him." {5} David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan,
"As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! {6}
He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing
and had no pity." {7} Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This
is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over
Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. {8} I gave your
master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave
you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little,
I would have given you even more. {9} Why did you despise the word of
the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the
Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him
with the sword of the Ammonites. {10} Now, therefore, the sword will
never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife
of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.' {11} "This is what the LORD says:
'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you.
Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who
is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
{12} You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight
before all Israel.'" {13} Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned
against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin.
You are not going to die. {14} But because by doing this you have made
the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will
die." {15} After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that
Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill.

L This is the word of the Lord.
P Thanks be to God.




A READING FROM GALATIANS 2:11-21
(NIV) When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because
he was clearly in the wrong. {12} Before certain men came from James,
he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to
draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid
of those who belonged to the circumcision group. {13} The other Jews
joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas
was led astray. {14} When I saw that they were not acting in line with
the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are
a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then,
that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? {15} "We who are Jews
by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' {16} know that a man is not
justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we,
too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by
faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the
law no one will be justified. {17} "If, while we seek to be justified
in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that
mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! {18} If I rebuild what
I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. {19} For through the law I
died to the law so that I might live for God. {20} I have been
crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who
loved me and gave himself for me. {21} I do not set aside the grace of
God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died
for nothing!"

L This is the word of the Lord.
P Thanks be to God.





A READING FROM LUKE 7:36-50
(NIV) Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him,
so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. {37} When
a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was
eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of
perfume, {38} and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she
began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her
hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. {39} When the Pharisee
who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a
prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she
is - that she is a sinner." {40} Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have
something to tell you." "Tell me, teacher," he said. {41} "Two men
owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred
denarii, and the other fifty. {42} Neither of them had the money to pay
him back, so he cancelled the debts of both. Now which of them will
love him more?" {43} Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the
bigger debt cancelled."

"You have judged correctly," Jesus said. {44} Then he turned toward the
woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your
house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet
with her tears and wiped them with her hair. {45} You did not give me a
kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing
my feet. {46} You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured
perfume on my feet. {47} Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been
forgiven - for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little
loves little." {48} Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
{49} The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who
even forgives sins?" {50} Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has
saved you; go in peace."

L This is the gospel of our Risen Lord.
P Praise be to you, Lord Jesus Christ.


SERMON: "Applying The Word"

O Lord, we pray, speak in this place, in the calming of our minds
and the longing of our hearts, by the words of my lips and in the
meditations of our hearts. Speak, O Lord, for your servants listen.
Amen.

Easy to believe \ say \ general principals of faith \ apply to others.
Hard to apply to ourself!

David had a passion for justice: - rich man \ poor man's lamb
he could apply the law to others
but did not recognize himself!

Peter felt free to live like a gentile - to eat with them - to relax the
old law for the new - but when faced with external pressure - he backed off
this freedom - did not live the freedom of Christ.

Simon the Pharisee - zeal for God - for the word - a word that mandated
hospitality and kindness to others - welcoming of angels - He knew the
prostitute was a sinner and judged her so - yet she did the works of love
and of hospitality that he ought!

We often Judge others - we often apply the Word to them - but not to self.
We become intolerant and unloving - we act as if we are forgiven little....

I speak to all of us about this -- but on this father's day we need to
consider the meaning of this especially for men.

There is a movement called "Promise Keepers" that swept over the nation -
especially the USA - over the last few years. Their aim is simple
- to get men to be Godly
- to honour and obey Christ
- to keep their promises
- to be good husbands and fathers
- to recognize that men try to run their own shows instead of having God do
it.

Men often try to set the agenda for their wives, their kids, their jobs.
They try to fix things according to their own standards of what is right
and wrong but the question is can we even fix ourselves?

With our children we don't need an analyse of what they are doing wrong
or right, and orders barked out and suggestions made and judgements passed.
Rather we need to pray for ourselves and them - to model our own
faithfulness that they may see and to share the word not just in talk -
but by how we show our commitment to it in our daily life and in our
Sabbath observances.

With ourselves - we need to apply the word to our own lives before we get
into trouble - before we sin. We need to remember we are forgiven much...
and love much. To develop a godly humility and faithfulness.

We are forgiven much - each one of us we are called to love much and to
trust that God will honour his word and save us - and work his saving work
on behalf of others through the godly things we do.





PASTORAL PRAYER AND THE PRAYERS OF THE PEOPLE
Gracious God, make our lives, through Jesus our true Vine, living branches
of faith, hope, and love, so that the existence of others may be enriched
and our own lives grow mature with the fruit of the Holy Spirit - that
Spirit given to us by you, our heavenly Father and by your Son and our
brother, Christ Jesus.... Lord, hear our prayer...

Gracious God, help us to be persons who love unconditionally as you love -
people who do not place demands or conditions on those whom we accept and,
equally, who do not give up the freedom that Christ won for us by trying to
win the love of others or of you by seeking to conform to conditions that
they may set upon loving us.... Lord hear our prayer...

Caring God, for our brothers and sisters in all their diverse needs we also
pray this day. We pray with thankfulness for those prayers you have already
answered - and with hearts of hope for those things yet to be... Hear now
the intentions upon our hearts and in the word's of our lips. We remember
before you today, O God, (BIDDING PRAYER) .... Lord hear our prayer...

All these things we pray in the name of Christ Jesus your son, and our
brother and our Lord. Amen




Father - as you have blessed us and given us a home and a family -
so we would bless you and the home and the family you have given us.
Accept, we pray, our gifts and use them in your loving and healing
service. We ask it in the name of Jesus - Amen




COMMISSIONING: In the power of the Holy Spirit, we now go forth into the
world to fulfil our calling as the people of God, the body of Christ.


BENEDICTION AND THREEFOLD AMEN
Go in peace, love and care for one another in Christ's name,
- and may the blessing of Christ Jesus be upon each and everyone of you,
- may his mercy uphold you - his compassion guide you - and his strength
sustain you - and his love fill you,
both now and forevermore. Amen


CHORAL BLESSING: "Go Now In Peace"

 

[Sybarite]

David and Gods punishment ?

To understand the law from the Old testament you must understand the purpose of Jesus and the fulfilment of the new testament I believe.

Gods punishment was harsh but just and when I think of all the factors involed in Gods wisdome which I hold to be far beyond are own understanding I have never found anyware in the word of God that the Lord caused are deemed any event as a munipulation of the lives of the people by his own hand...

So if God orders/arranges rape of innocent women and the death of a child it must be "just" because God did it ...

... Every judgment and action was a direct result of peoples own actions are choices that resulted in personal afliction wether thay were directly involed with the choice are not by allowing certain things to come to pass.

What "actions" were the wives that God was going to arrange to be raped or the tiny child that He was going to see die 'guilty' of? What had they done to offend God? Nothing that is reported. No, they were going to be punished because God was angry with someone else. What had Lot's daughters done that it was apparently perfectly acceptable (since he wasn't punished for it) for their father to offer them to be gang raped?

... The child - I belive that the lord saved him from living a life of hardship and in my mind God is the creator of soals so he just took him home from were he came...

By this logic, God's servants should go and abort all children who will be born into poverty and misery in the developing world, thus saving them from such a miserable existence and sending them "home" to God. It's a wonder God doesn't do this Himself, when you think about it. Actually, perhaps that why the Nazis killed disabled children – they were just saving them from "living a life of hardship" ...

... but clearly he was used as a punishment for David to show him how badly he messed up...

And you think that this is acceptable? Are you suggesting that your government should punish lawbreakers by imprisoning or executing their families and not them? Let's look at something else that I quoted – rape victims being made to marry their attacker; perhaps that would be a good policy for the US?

According to the Bible, God punishes the innocent. God orders rape. God orders murder.

... and even still it was a judment from Davids action like you say for his sin and not as a personal attack on David for no reason- (After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that
Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill.) God shows hes no respecter of persons from all of us I believe does God do that today as punishment for braking the law to punish people ?

If God is "no respecter of persons", why should we be? Or indeed, why should we respect this being who is "no respecter of persons"? It's a great lesson for children and young people – base your life on someone who is "no respecter of persons".

... Prime example of this is war-God does not start war people do and as a result many other people are affected that have no say so in the matter that is now and forever human nature as a creature of sin reguardless of the events involved to bring abought war im speaking directly to conflict and not the decision itself of procliaiming war.

There are plenty of examples in the post I made earlier where God, if not directly ordering war, if hardly disaproving and is clearly on one side over another. And then He is apparently laying down the rules of how to murder and rape in the aftermath.

I repeat, the Bible has plenty of examples where God apparently tells his servants to murder and to rape. Or, as in the story of Lot, where child rape is apparently acceptable.

 

[Stronghold]

So if God orders/arranges rape of innocent women and the death of a child it must be "just" because God did it ...



What "actions" were the wives that God was going to arrange to be raped or the tiny child that He was going to see die 'guilty' of? What had they done to offend God? Nothing that is reported. No, they were going to be punished because God was angry with someone else. What had Lot's daughters done that it was apparently perfectly acceptable (since he wasn't punished for it) for their father to offer them to be gang raped?



By this logic, God's servants should go and abort all children who will be born into poverty and misery in the developing world, thus saving them from such a miserable existence and sending them "home" to God. It's a wonder God doesn't do this Himself, when you think about it. Actually, perhaps that why the Nazis killed disabled children – they were just saving them from "living a life of hardship" ...



And you think that this is acceptable? Are you suggesting that your government should punish lawbreakers by imprisoning or executing their families and not them? Let's look at something else that I quoted – rape victims being made to marry their attacker; perhaps that would be a good policy for the US?

According to the Bible, God punishes the innocent. God orders rape. God orders murder.



If God is "no respecter of persons", why should we be? Or indeed, why should we respect this being who is "no respecter of persons"? It's a great lesson for children and young people – base your life on someone who is "no respecter of persons".



There are plenty of examples in the post I made earlier where God, if not directly ordering war, if hardly disaproving and is clearly on one side over another. And then He is apparently laying down the rules of how to murder and rape in the aftermath.

I repeat, the Bible has plenty of examples where God apparently tells his servants to murder and to rape. Or, as in the story of Lot, where child rape is apparently acceptable.[/quot.














I have already explained that past events are a result of actions of people and God does have favore over jews and his elect giving theem land ect. and being the chosen people all for diferant reasons.


And with respect to (no respector of persons) why does God love a murderer ?And dont get me wrong there are many motivations for the taking of a life meaning premeditation is it murder are killing in a conflict there is a diferance and again we cant use a blanket statment to discribe all forms of taking a life are to discribe conflict.
Does God just love the people who abay his law because he loves all of his children even thoughs that dont love him are disobay him.

But the truth is there wether we except it are not it is up to us to do are own soal searching but its one thing to ask questions to understand things and another to make accusations (accusations)-are nothing more than a pre atempt to formulate a conclusion often suported with distorted facts that are manipulated out of context to creat a conclusion.

Fact-A fact is something that is the case. A "fact" can be defined as the state of affairs reported by a true statement[1][2]; or as a concept or statement that can be demonstrated as true according to the rules of logic or some other formal decision procedure.[3] Generally, the term "fact" is distinguishable from the terms "proposition", "claim", "averment", and "allegation" in that the latter terms (and their synonyms) suggest statements that are not necessarily demonstrably true.


And I have listen to your argument and to me thay are a preconlusion of your own thinking and to me you have not proven your case by leaving out facts to suport your conlusions and also not showing the entire accusations in the proper context.

Another words as me being open minded you have not convienced me that your statments are true in any way so it is my openion that thay are incomplete conclusions of the gospel taken out of context.

Which brings me to the point of divine wisdome vrs. earthly wisdome does it exist I believe it does do we see things with a earthly mind and have the ability to no this fact I believe we can prove that now in todays world? does God really no all ?

Do we continue to grow beyond are own understanding to understand God ?
Are do we understand God because he allows us too?

Well the awnser is both- I believe we have a (relationship) with God which is two sided were we can study Gods word to better understand him and pray to him for understanding because he allows us to for divine wisdome outside of are own understanding.

Like take stars forenstance I have always new someware deep inside me that we were conected somehow to the univers when I looked at the stars at night.

I prayed abought it and the answer I got was yes we are connected that is what I felt but that was my answer so I thought not much of an awnser how? are we conected is what I was looking for.

Well I just excepted the fact that I new we were but didnt no how?

Are we ment to know everything when we want to know it I dont think so and that brings in the word faith to trust in God that some things we may never know all the awnsers too doesnt mean we should stop asking questions just means we may never know all of the awnsers to theem for manny reasons.

But it turns out that I recently read that the irion in are blood that pumps in are vains are made up of stars .

So in turms of creation it is just a glimps of the bigger picture from an earthly perspective.

 

[BethWagner]

I’m back—thank you for your patience.
Firstly I would like to comment on Sylvester’s interpretation of the Scriptures. Thank you for posting them—I always have much greater respect for an argument if it has something to back it up.
I would like to point out an obvious error in the first Scripture you noted in Judges 21:10-24 (which is the one about the men of Benjamin) but before that I would like to second Stronghold on that cultures were very different back then than they are now. If you were to research it you would find that women had practically no say in who they married—no consent, in other words. They were more of someone who was just there to have and raise children. There wasn’t much “consent” on their parts. I would also like to note that just because things back then were different than now does not mean that the definition of right and wrong has changed in God’s opinion. He has never change and never will.
The Old Testament was in place at that time and in those days women were not allowed to divorce men but he could divorce her. You often hear of a man “taking for himself a wife” but never (that I have found) a woman “taking for herself a husband). In regards to this portion of Scripture, you “forgot” to include a very important verse at the end: “In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.” Here is a very important point that applies to this Scripture and all the others mentioned so please take note: Just because an event is recorded in the Scriptures does not mean that it is right in God’s sight. The Bible, in most cases, merely states facts.
In regards to Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."
I think to understand these verses you need to go back a few verses. Only a bit earlier he talk about how a damsel would be saved from death if she was being forced and she cried out. I believe this very well could be applicable, here. In Ex. 22 it talks about a man “enticing” a woman.
In reference to 2 Sam. 12:11-14 (David’s son dying) I think it is important to realize that sometimes the most effective way of punishing someone is to do it through someone else. In David’s case, if he himself would have died, it would have been all over. Instead, he had to live with the realization for his whole life that what he had done killed his son. I’m sure that he would have rather died himself. At least I would have. Many times the innocent must suffer for another’s wrongdoings. That is because of the curse.
Zech. 14:1-2—the “day of the Lord” is referring to one for His judgment, not that He delights in plundering, killing, and making desolate. It was the judgment He promised Israel if they departed from Him.
And in the case of Abraham and Isaac, God is not confined to today’s court systems and often gives His children tests of faith. It was not “child abuse”; rather a test of Abraham’s obedience. God will not be judged by mere man. I believe that it is also a picture of how He offered His only Son and spared him not for the sin of all mankind. Child abuse? No, it’s called salvation from hell.
As far as Lot and Abraham go—I do not believe God saved Lot for Lot’s sake but rather for Abraham’s sake. Note Gen. 19:29: “And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities and all the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out in the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew in the which Lot dwelt.” (Italics added)
And lastly, concerning separation of church and state, I have some quotes here:
“It is impossible to rightly govern without God and the Bible.” George Washington
“Religion is the basis and foundation of government.” James Madison
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
James Madison
“Religion and virtue are the only foundations of republicanism, and all free government.”
John Adams
Dean, I want to thank you as well for your comments—I feel that they were well intentioned, however I respectfully disagree. I am not a “tolerance” person. There is a definite wrong and a definite right. Sin is sin and I will not call it by any other name. It is not popular to take that stand I realize, however I will not sacrifice my beliefs for fame, money, friendship, any person or any career. I am willing to die for what I believe. If it means giving up a certain profession to keep them, then I will not hesitate to do so. You see, I am not here to serve myself. Christ has called me to serve Him and He will decide what I am to do. I understand your confusion about my statement of hating homosexuality and not hating homosexuals. It is a bit hard to explain but I will endeavor to. I love the person as Christ does. I see in them what they were created for—to glorify God. However, I hate the sin they are committing.
Touching briefly again on the tolerance issue, I must say that if everyone took that approach there would be no end to murders, crime, stealing, ect. We would tolerate everyone and let everyone out of jail because we would treat people as we would want to be treated.
What troubled me the most is that you stated that you are not born again. How can you believe in God and not do what He says? I have a few Scriptures regarding your condition: Romans 10:9-10: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
1 John 5: 10,12: “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”
John 3:3-8 and 16-20: “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”
A life of peace and love is not imperative now---if you live in Christ you will have peace and love, and that is the only place you will find it. I know, because I have experience it.
Regards, Bill

 

[Sybarite]

Okay. So times are different now, cultures have changed etc, so we can't actually judge anything in the Old Testament – except when it comes to homosexuality, apparently. Rape and murder were okay once upon a time – indeed, God endorsed and ordered them – but times change. Except when it comes to two people of the same sex having sex.

To extrapolate: homosexual sex is more important than murder, than rape, than offering your children to be abused, than preparing to kill your own child on the say-so of a god, which is why God still thinks its a big issue. Rape, murder etc – God has changed His mind on those things and seen the error of His ways. But two men or two women loving each other and having sex with each other? Oh no, we can't be having any of that.

That, if I might say so, is a truly perverted set of priorities. Just as, in my opinion, is the inference that a tolerance of homosexuality would be tantamount to tolerating "murders, crime, stealing etc". But when one sees the attempts of some to explain away a God who is reported as tolerating and encouraging murder and rape, then such an inference is not as surprising.

If the god of Judeo-Christian tradition is supposed to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, then why has His creation changed so much? If the God of the Old Testament was a fan of murder and rape, why did He change? Because He realised that it wasn't very nice and civilised? If so, that doesn't say much for His supposed powers.

And even if times change, it means that the God that millions worship used to think it was okay to order murder and rape. So what actually changed that God's view (if it has changed)? Whether organised religions like it or not, it has been a case of civilisation moving on and developing. We have mentioned rape and Bill has now mentioned divorce; we ncould talk about education for women and countless other aspects of their lives – but progress for women has not come about because of moves by organised religion. It has largely come about because of the pressures of secular and enlightened people and groups (trade unions, for instance).

Stronghold, it is ironic that you talk of facts being facts: do you have one single fact for the existence of God that could stand up in a court of law or in a scientific situation? Just one, single, solitary fact.

I suspect that you'll have to point out that it's a matter of faith. Okay. But faith does not prove anything. And if you're going to rely on faith, then it's possibly wise to forego talk of facts.

This is, incidentally, why this conversation is so difficult; faith is immune to reason – there's a point why Luther described reason as "the devil's Where".

Bill, to reiterate what I have said elsewhere – I had a conversion experience; I was "born again". It brought me no "peace", but increased guilt. That was my "condition". I'm very glad that your beliefs give you "peace and love", but my experience was different.

And I cannot begin to describe the sense of liberation that finally shedding the shackles of religion has personally meant. To clarify: I do not believe in any form of a god now.

Finally, simply to point out that I do not personally care what people believe – they can believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care. They have a right to believe anything they want. What I do care about is when religious people attempt to use their personal beliefs to influence the way that non-believers and believers of other faiths live their lives. We have quite enough of it in the UK under Tony Blair and I am well aware of how his friend the US president is influenced (or leads his constituents to believe that he is influenced) by theology in decisions of state.

 

[Stronghold]

Okay. So times are different now, cultures have changed etc, so we can't actually judge anything in the Old Testament – except when it comes to homosexuality, apparently. Rape and murder were okay once upon a time – indeed, God endorsed and ordered them – but times change. Except when it comes to two people of the same sex having sex.

To extrapolate: homosexual sex is more important than murder, than rape, than offering your children to be abused, than preparing to kill your own child on the say-so of a god, which is why God still thinks its a big issue. Rape, murder etc – God has changed His mind on those things and seen the error of His ways. But two men or two women loving each other and having sex with each other? Oh no, we can't be having any of that.

That, if I might say so, is a truly perverted set of priorities.

If the god of Judeo-Christian tradition is supposed to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, then why has His creation changed so much? If the God of the Old Testament was a fan of murder and rape, why did He change? Because He realised that it wasn't very nice and civilised? If so, that doesn't say much for His supposed powers.

And even if times change, it means that the God that millions worship used to think it was okay to order murder and rape. So what actually changed that God's view (if it has changed)? Whether organised religions like it or not, it has been a case of civilisation moving on and developing. We have mentioned rape and Bill has now mentioned divorce; we ncould talk about education for women and countless other aspects of their lives – but progress for women has not come about because of moves by organised religion. It has largely come about because of the pressures of secular and enlightened people and groups (trade unions, for instance).

Stronghold, it is ironic that you talk of facts being facts: do you have one single fact for the existence of God that could stand up in a court of law or in a scientific situation? Just one, single, solitary fact.

I suspect that you'll have to point out that it's a matter of faith. Okay. But faith does not prove anything. And if you're going to rely on faith, then it's possibly wise to forego talk of facts.

This is, incidentally, why this conversation is so difficult; faith is immune to reason – there's a point why Luther described reason as "the devil's Where".

Bill, to reiterate what I have said elsewhere – I had a conversion experience. It brought me no "peace", but increased guilt. I cannot begin to describe the sense of liberation that finally shedding the shackles of religion has personally meant.

Finally, simply to point out that I do not personally care what people believe – they can believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care. They have a right to believe anything they want. What I do care about is when religious people attempt to use their personal beliefs to influence the way that non-believers and believers of other faiths live their lives. We have quite enough of it in the UK under Tony Blair and I am well aware of how his friend the US president is influenced (or leads his constituents to believe that he is influenced) by theology in decisions of state.

If you would Sybaright if its not to personal for you to talk abought would you share your convershion experiance with us .

And as far as Peace goes well in my own experiance there has been varry little of it more like great strif in defending my beliefs and personal spiritual attacks but I can still sleep at night so I do have peace but because I share the Gospel it seems like there is a reall fight going on.


Like I have said before I really try not to think of people one way are the other in terms on how thay live their life its there choice just like I shouldent have to defend the way I live my life.

But in the reall world thats just the way it is people judge including myself
for diferant reasons.

But by hearing just a bit of your story might help me understand a bit more of were you are coming from .

Take care.