Ten Reasons Gay Marriage is Un-American

[BethWagner]

You are clearly forgetting a statement I made earlier. Rape and murder were never right in God’s sight and never will be. That applies to homosexuality, as well. Then why are they here? Because man has sinned. We brought it on our own heads. God intended that there would never be any murder, rape, ect. However, when He made man in His image that also meant a free will, and we know the story of the fall and how man sinned—desperately sinned—and brought on himself murder, rape, homosexuality, ect. God made one man and one woman. He knew what he was doing when he did that. He never, ever, ever intended for two men or two women to live together. If He would have He would have made it that way. Because we have rejected God He has allowed us to go our own way unless we follow Him. We have a free will, you remember. That is why there is murder and rape. To say that God ordered and approved of them is totally false and perverted.
You will see all the freedom that women need in the Bible. They are no less than men in God’s sight, but because man sinned the woman was made in subjection to the man.
As far as your conversion experience, Sybarite, obviously something happened there. I don’t know the situation but I expect you were feeling conviction from God and instead of heeding to you it turned away.
Please, don’t listen to what I say, listen to what God says. Pick up a Bible and read it. Perhaps you have. Read it again, especially the New Testament. Anyone who does not accept it is damned. I know for a fact that God exists. If you want proof I’ll give it to you. I don’t just believe, I know God is real and that He loves you very much—so much that He gave His Son to die for the whole world.
I know that what I believe is right and that is why I have made it my life’s mission to turn others to Christ. I have seen people who were just like yourself and believed exactly like you do transformed and the change is amazing.
Regards, Bill

 

[Sybarite]

First, sexuality is not a matter of choice. I have yet to meet anyone – heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual – who made a conscious decision to choose their sexuality. Anecdotal evidence aside, all the current scientific evidence is that sexuality is determined before birth – possibly as a result of hormonal changes in the mother's womb.

Homosexual behaviour has been cited in at least 70 species, including dolphins, chimps and penguins. It is a part of nature. Ergo it is natural. And so, for those who believe that a divine being created the world, homosexuality is a part of that god's creation.

For the sake of the discussion, accepting your assertion that God didn't really like murder and rape and that the advent of such things was the fault of humans etc, then this still leaves the uncomfortable issue of God subsequently encouraging and even ordering it. This is in the Biblical passages that I quoted.

In which case, God is encouraging sin – and apparently rewarding those who do his bidding and punishing those who don't. Is God so weak-willed that he follows fallen man into sinful behaviour? Or does He simply operate double standards? In the enlightened world, we'd call it hypocrisy if a politician, for instance, told his constituents to do one thing but did something different himself. But apparently God can say: 'No, thou shalt not do this or this or this.

'Oh bother! Well now you've done it, I'm going to do some myself. And order you to do more. But at the same time I'll tell you off for these things – some of the time. Then I'll encourage you again...'

So, God the hypocrite, God the weak-willed and, on the basis of what we've already discussed, God the sadist.

As to my own experiences, I've given little detail, but it's most amusing to read suppositions of what happened.

But to keep you all amused, I grew up (as I said elsewhere) in a very fundamentalist, evangelical family. When I was approximately 13, there was a crusade in our area and my sister and I were taken along numerous times (my father was involved in the organisation of the event anyway). Eventually, one night, the inevitable happened and I succumbed to the emotional overload.

I must have been unbearable at school for some time; I went around on an evangelical crusade, holding informal prayer meetings etc. I attended services and prayer meetings etc and, of course, read my Bible (with those very helpful notes). And I prayed. A lot.

One of the central things that I prayed about was for God to get rid of my 'dodgy' feelings. I was a pubescent child and, apart from checking that I understood the absolute basics of what might happen to me when I began to menstruate, nobody thought to tell me anything whatsoever about puberty. The only thing that I knew about sex was based on sermons – formal and the informal dinnertable rants – and which amounted to a nice, simple message that sex = sin and sin = sex.

Now let’s see: a young teenager (very naïve, no boyfriend and no friends who are likely to actually educate her) with burgeoning sexual feelings that she doesn’t even have the words to describe, except that they’re ‘sinful’. She can’t talk to anyone about these feelings, because she’s a sinner and obviously a bad person. So she prays, earnestly and frequently, for them to be taken away. Guess what? Nothing changes. Frustration and guilt and all those things. And she goes on trying to live a Godly life and, before you ask, is chaste beyond belief (I was 19 before I was kissed). And don’t worry, I slammed the lid down firmly on any questions about my sexuality and tried to forget about it.

Life doesn’t work like that though; such an approach to something that is an intrinsic part of oneself is inherently unhealthy.

Finally, in my late 30s, I had something of a crisis. I went through a kind of late adolescence (better late than never). Religion just drifted away, entirely unexpectedly. And all the residue of guilt went with it. What freedom. What peace.

And Bill, with all due respect, you do not "know for a fact that God exists". You have no evidence – you have no facts. There is not a shred of actual, real evidence for any sort of a god, as understood or defined by any major religion. Have your faith by all means, but faith is not evidence, it is not facts – any more than the belief of a child in Father Christmas is evidence of that mythological figure's existence.

 

[BethWagner]

I disagree with the idea that people were created to be homosexuals as I have stated before. I have heard from former homosexuals who have refuted that claim, and as for so called “science”, most of it is false, anyway. As far as animal homosexuality, I would be obliged if you would visit this link: http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html
I suppose that we might go on forever on the fact of whether or not God orders sin in the world. Why would He allow 33 people to be killed in VA? Why would He allow 9/11? Why would He allow millions of children to be killed every year? Why would He allow rape? Does He order every event? Does He ordain that all these evil things take place? I would say that it was never God’s intent for sin to be in the world at all. He uses circumstances, yes, to bring men to Him, but sin was never His plan and intention and the sins that you mentioned and all others are the fault of mankind. Don’t blame God for your problems—it is your own fault. And know this—sin will most assuredly be judged one day. God will not allow it to continue forever. Note how compassion He was with Israel in the Old Testament. He gave them time, and time, and time again to repent. He does the same with us. However, the day is fast approaching that no more will His mercy be extended against the wickedness of the whole world. Man is fallen into a sinful state. We cannot blame God and accuse Him of ordering events that we ourselves brought into place.
Thank you, Sybarite, for sharing with us the story of your “conversion”. I want you to know that what I share now is not out of spite for you but out of genuine concern for you. I do not hate you—I sincerely want the best for you. It appears to me that your conversion was forced. You grew up being hit over the head with the fact that you were a sinner and needed to be saved now and so you, growing tired of the pressure, yielded and had a forced confession. First off, God will not come into a heart where He is not welcome. He will not be forced into a person’s life. If it was not your own heart leading you to Him—and the realization that you are a sinner and in need of His love—and not the forcing of anyone else—you were not saved at all. Secondly, you tried to be a “good Christian” and do many good works, for what intent I am not sure. Perhaps you were trying to “earn” favor with God. God will not be bribed. No work of yours will save you. Then you prayed earnestly that He would take these feelings away—and nothing happened. Why? Simply because you did not know Him. You were praying to a mere puppet who you served with mind and nothing else. You did not have a personal (yes, personal!) relationship with God. You did not know Him. It does no good to lock up our feelings and not do anything with them. What needs to be done is an honest confession of sin on our parts, and a realization that we can by no means rid ourselves of these things. We need a heart filled with belief and one that will hold God to the promises in His Word that He will perform that work in us that He promised and that He will and can change our sinful hearts into one like His. Only that will enable us to live a life free of sin.
After you left the life of trying to please God by your own self you felt free. No longer were you trying and striving to please God on your own attempt and the bondage you felt under that was gone. It does not have to be that way! Christ can change into something you never thought possible.
Yes, there is a God. You do not want to believe it because it holds you accountable for your actions, and I have more than just faith the back it up. You asked Stronghold for just one, valid point. I have three.
#1: The power of changed lives accepting Christianity. You would not believe the miraculous miracles that have been performed in the life of people who were so utterly “far gone”. This is lives transformed to the power of Christ. Demons are gone, the hold of sin is gone, and that, no matter how much you try to explain it away, is not something scientific. It is the power of God.
#2: The explicit factuality of the Bible. If you trace the Bible history you will find that every event predicted has come to pass. Every one. You will find how accurately it follows history—predicting events hundreds of years before they come to pass and they do exactly as predicted. I recently heard a sermon (and I can’t remember it all exactly) but it was something about a prophecy made in the Bible concerning a gate in Jerusalem and when it would be opened, or something like that. The probability, the man said, of it happening was like covering the state of Texas with quarters three feet thick and reaching in and picking out the right one and it happened. Don’t talk to me about chance. How do you suppose David knew that there was “paths in the sea” when they were only discovered a few hundred years ago?
#3: The miracles performed. I think it is incredible if you go back and read accounts of the martyrs and how they stood firm to the end while being tortured. Nothing but the power of Christ could have allowed them to withstand such awful things. And think of all the worldwide revivals were millions have come under the power of God and fallen on their faces in repentance for Him. You cannot dispute how many lives have been changed and people sought after Him. I have greatly experienced the power of Christ in my own life—changing me from a slothful, disobedient, bitter individual into a follower of Christ. There is no doubt to me there is a God—I wish that I could share a bit of what I feel with you and I pray that perhaps someday you will experience it.
Regards, Bill

 

[Stronghold]

Hay thank you for sharing your story just wanted to say it was never my intent to make you believe in God that is a fact on my part like Bill and myself both stated it is a personal relationship and it is a choice for you to make.

But im still not giving up on people to consider a renewal of there faith I also love the story of the prodical son thats me hahah.

But i would just encourage you to seek out people who have had similuar experiances as yourself if you ever get too a place were you feall like you want a change in your life.

Thank you for the great debate take care.

 

[Sybarite]

It's a little difficult to take seriously a site that has such an obvious agenda – a homophobic one, recommended by someone who has openly declared that they hate homosexuality and don't have much time for tolerance either.

However, a single search on Google for "homosexuality animals" produces the following links just on the first page, and from a wide variety of sources.

From National Geographic

Wikipedia

MSNBC

Salon.com

BBC

Seed magazine

The Seattle Times

And you could always try Dr Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation: A Definitive Guide to the Evolutionary Biology of Sex by Olivia Judson, an evolutionary biologist at Imperial College, London.


Now to your three "facts".

A lot of things change lives. Sport, including boxing, has changed many lives. So – in keeping with this forum – has music. There have been many young people, drifting through life, possibly getting into trouble (or near to it), who have found a purpose in life through something like music.

There have also been people who, doubtless, have found a meaning in life through Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Wicca and any other religion that you care to mention.

There have been people whose lives have been changed by literature, by philosophy, by picking up a paintbruch or a camera or by countless other things. But, for instance, someone having their life changed by reading Sartre wouldn't necessarily mean that his ideas on existentialism were true.

To describe the Bible as "explicit factuality" is, at best, a tad disingenuous. Only an extreme fundamentalist would, for instance, suggest that, in spite of evidence, the world is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs walked the Earth with mankind. Most sensible religious people would agree that the Creation story is a fable, written in such a way that the people of the time could comprehend. The Bible is full of such things. Although, of course, it's pointless discussing anything to do with 'facts' and 'reason' and 'evidence' with an "extreme fundamentalist" because they're simply going to stick their fingers in their ears, whistle tunelessly and refuse to listen. Fundamentalists have no place in their lives for reason and facts and evidence. As for predictions, Nostradamus doesn't have a bad record, but I'm not about to suggest that people live their lives according to his guesses.

Miracles. As described in the Bible. Now you're clutching at straws. A book, as I mentioned earlier, written after the event (would you trust newspaper reports written decades after an event by someone who wasn't there, but who had heard it from someone who had heard it from someone else who had ...?), cobbled together by people with their own agendas (the Vatican, for instance).

These are not facts. They would not stand up in a court of law. They would not stand up to scientific examination. They would not stand up to academic rigour.

As I said before, if you're happy with your faith, then fine. But don't try to pretend that you have "facts" and 'evidence' and 'proof', because you do not.


Finally, I find it difficult to know what to say to someone who doesn't know me any more than fleetingly in cyberspace, but who feels that they can judge me and tell me about my personal relationship with God. That takes either telepathy or some serious brass neck. But Bill, like everything else that you claim on this thread, it has nothing to do with facts and only your perceptions – your faith, if you will.

 

[BethWagner]

You may call me any name you like--extreme fundamentalist or not, but the 6 day creation theory is proven to be true. I have studied it for the past year. And yes---I've heard all the evolution claims. They are all false. I wish I could somehow get you an article written by a former evolutionist who strove desprately to prove creation wrong and then, through his research, came to believe in creation. Many, many, of the scientists who discovered these major scientific theories were Christians
I'm not talking about changing lives just in any ordinary way. This is ways that would have been given up for hopeless by someone else. This is lifelong habits broken and an immediate transformation.
I will listen to anything you have to say but I doubt it will do much good because as I have stated I know what I believe to be true and obviously your eyes have been blinded by the god of this world to the truth.
I have something higher than what mere man judges. If you choose not to heed to God and ignore Him there is nothing I can do about it.
No, these are not miracles described in the Bible of which I was refering. It never even crossed my mind. These are things happen TODAY, RIGHT now in countries across the world. Do you suppose that just anyone could lay hands on a person and in the name of Jesus raise them from the dead? And yes, they were dead. It's happening right now in China.
I firmly believe that God can use people who have thier own agenda to further His purpose. He used the Roman Catholic Church, who at the time were killing thousands of Christians, to preserve His Word.
I have given you facts that you obviously don't want to believe. I feel that now we are rather going around in circles saying the same thing over and over. I have stated my view--you stated yours. I do not wish to part enemies, I honestly meant it when I said that it is out of concern for you I share these things because I have experienced situations just like yours and know where they can lead and have lead.
Regards, Bill

 

[Nullifidian]

You may call me any name you like--extreme fundamentalist or not, but the 6 day creation theory is proven to be true.

If that's the case, all you have to do is publish, and the name people will be calling you is "Nobel laureate".

I have studied it for the past year.

Oh, a whole year. I'm sure that puts the six-to-eight years of higher education of working evolutionary biologists, not to mention their years of active research, to shame. I'm sorry to sound flippant, but the idea that one can dismiss the whole substance of a branch of science because one has studied anything for a year, let alone something as full of misrepresentations and lies as creationism, is absolutely ludicrous.

And yes---I've heard all the evolution claims. They are all false.

All? I'd really like to see the evidential basis of that claim.

I wish I could somehow get you an article written by a former evolutionist who strove desprately to prove creation wrong and then, through his research, came to believe in creation.

Oh, don't worry. We can find that on the internet, because everybody who is anybody in the world of creationism has concocted a heartfelt story about how they used to be "evolutionists" and then Saw the Light.

Many, many, of the scientists who discovered these major scientific theories were Christians

And many of them weren't. Being a Christian doesn't commit one to being a creationist in the modern sense of the term, not even in the older days.

What amazes me, however, is that you're perfectly content to declare the entire substance of what is the consensus model of biological life, and accepted by the vast majority of working biologists the world over as "wrong" and yet you continually appeal to the supposed authority of other scientists. If scientists today can be so vastly wrong, what is there to say that, for example, Cuvier's adherence to creationism was not also equally wrong?

 

[Nullifidian]

And you could always try Dr Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation: A Definitive Guide to the Evolutionary Biology of Sex by Olivia Judson, an evolutionary biologist at Imperial College, London.

There's also Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl, which is the ultimate one stop source (almost 800 pages) for documentation of animal homosexuality.

But if one has NARTH, why consult an ethologist?

 

[Stronghold]

You can read all of the books you want ....................


I have died before and God brought me back to life what im abought to tell you I would take a lie detector test to.


No one on this planet will ever convince me that thay have all the facts because I no better because of my own personal experiance.

I was in my place of residance in my kitchen and my hart started to act funny I had a bad drug over dose this was maby 15 years ago and I fell flat on my face on the kitchen counter and that was the end.

I found myself floating above my boady and the story is much more grafic than im telling you but im just telling you the basic facts and I looked at my arms and legs and my torso and there was nothing there completly see through but I could move my arms and feall theem my boady felt solid.

I had no since of tast are smell but visually I could see everything and the colors were briliant I did not no who the boady was are were I was are who I was.

Every thing was being told to me selectivly at first I was screaming with fury that I was dead and then I was given a choice to come back are go and wile I was making the choice my boady started to fall to the floor and I reached out for it and I was right back in my boady.

This is a memory in my mind I remember it clearly just like it happend yesterday so you can save all of the theorys abought how the brain reacts when its low on oxygin because I know better it is an actaull memory in my brain of an event that happend to me as clear as any onther stored memory.

And it was as reall as any other out of boady experiance you will hear from any one that has experianced the same thing in a diferant situation but I am living proof that there is life after death as far as im concernd.


And for the record I had never read anything abought the spirituall boady that was talked abought in the bible untill years after this experiance but as shure as I type thees words I know without a doubt in my mind we all have one I just got to see it before the rest of you.


Take care and grace and peace.

 

[Nullifidian]

I'm sure you'd pass a lie detector test, too. A lie detector test doesn't actually distinguish between true and false claims, nor does it even reliably indicate whether the person is lying. People who are telling the truth, but nervous, can give readings which are ambiguous or indicate deceit, and those who are cool and collected can lie with every word and not indicate anything. It's mainly a measure of your physical discomfort with the test.

However, the fact that you think you experienced this doesn't mean it's true. In fact, the precise description of 'events' can be and has been replicated by taking ketamine (or Special K, to use its street nickname).

Unless you want to argue that god is not only interested in gathering his children to himself, but also giving some people a really fascinating high, the link between the so-called "near death experiences" and god is remote at best.

 

[Sybarite]

You may call me any name you like--extreme fundamentalist or not, but the 6 day creation theory is proven to be true. I have studied it for the past year. And yes---I've heard all the evolution claims. They are all false...

Thank you for so concisely proving – yet again – that you are a fundamentalist. Which means that, even if I had explicitly called you a fundamentalist, I was merely stating something that, on the basis of your own, repeated comments, is clear to anyone reading this thread.

However, it's mildly amusing that you seem to consider this as a kind of name calling. You have posted on this thread, stating your hatred of homosexuality; you have equated it with crime and you have dismissed all homosexuals (and presumably bisexuals too) as 'sinners'. You have no idea how many homosexual or bisexual people there are on this forum (two, at least, who have directly answered you here), yet you apparently have no compunction about making offensive comments about a subject of which you know nothing – you even stated, earlier, that you have never talked to (that you know of) a homosexual, while you have also dismissed scientific knowledge on the subject in favour of an organisation with a clearly homophobic agenda.

Now you have also stated that you don't believe in tolerance on such issues – if you're going to play in such a manner, then quite frankly I think it's remarkable that you haven't been called considerably stronger 'names' than the inferred "extreme fundamentalist", which, taking into consideration the Christian religion as a whole, you clearly are.

... I will listen to anything you have to say but I doubt it will do much good because as I have stated I know what I believe to be true and obviously your eyes have been blinded by the god of this world to the truth...

So that'll be listen but take no notice. Fair enough. As long as we know where you stand.

I have something higher than what mere man judges...

So as a "mere man" yourself, how can you judge it?

... IDo you suppose that just anyone could lay hands on a person and in the name of Jesus raise them from the dead? And yes, they were dead. It's happening right now in China...

You were there? You witnessed it? And you have evidence that something that you claim occurred could not possibly have occurred as anything other than a divine intervention? You have medical evidence?

... I firmly believe that God can use people who have thier own agenda to further His purpose. He used the Roman Catholic Church, who at the time were killing thousands of Christians, to preserve His Word...

Doesn't care much for His own followers then, does He? Nice bloke.


On that question (and as a slight diversion), one might ask of someone who believes in the literal truth of the Creation myth, how come their God decided, during His creative spell – and before the creation of Adam and Eve and the subsequent fall (so before sin) – to make volcanoes and earthquakes and tsunamis and the like. Why did a benevolent, loving God, who could have created the world in any way that he wanted, without the dangerous 'flaws' of tectonic plates etc, decide to create a world that would, in 'acts of God', kill millions?

And Bill says that an omniscient God knows everything that's going to happen in the future – thousands and thousands of years into the future. So presumably this egotistical, sadistic, warped being knew that Eve would be tempted and knew that she would eat the apple and tempt Adam with it, thus bringing about the fall – He knew because He designed that to happen. He could have designed it otherwise, but He didn't. This God chose to design a flawed Earth with flawed inhabitants – in His image, apparently, which means that God is flawed – and He chose to do this in the complete knowledge that He could and would then spend the years 'punishing' and torturing His own creation simply because they were doing exactly what He created them to do.

 

[Stronghold]

I'm sure you'd pass a lie detector test, too. A lie detector test doesn't actually distinguish between true and false claims, nor does it even reliably indicate whether the person is lying. People who are telling the truth, but nervous, can give readings which are ambiguous or indicate deceit, and those who are cool and collected can lie with every word and not indicate anything. It's mainly a measure of your physical discomfort with the test.

However, the fact that you think you experienced this doesn't mean it's true. In fact, the precise description of 'events' can be and has been replicated by taking ketamine (or Special K, to use its street nickname).

Unless you want to argue that god is not only interested in gathering his children to himself, but also giving some people a really fascinating high, the link between the so-called "near death experiences" and god is remote at best.

Like I said there is no way on earth you can replacate my experiance and I have never had special k and was not on mind altering drugs so take my story are leave it I dont care your arguments arnt going to mean anything when you pass away thats what im telling you.

Good luck.

 

[Stronghold]

Vary intristing note the most comon hallucinations just the oposite of what I experianced.



Studies have now shown hallucinatory experiences take place across the population as a whole. Previous studies, one as early as 1894[1], have reported that approximately 10% of the population experience hallucinations. A recent survey of over 9,000 people[2] reported a much higher figure with almost 39% of people reported hallucinatory experiences, 27% of which reported daytime hallucinations, mostly outside the context of illness or drug use. From this survey, olfactory (smell) and gustatory (taste) hallucinations seem the most common in the general population.

And you can add Angels to in the mix I never saw one had I stayed longer im shure I would have seen much more but it is intristing that the most comon experiance from people with are without taking drugs are just the oposite of what I have explained.


Show me one story that has all of the facts of mine that was a result of taking no hallucination drugs.

And I have researched this you are more likly to find a similuar story to thoughs who were in tramadic sergerys are hospitall stays.

Which there are some intristing thigs to be said abought that there was a woman doing studys on out of boady experiances and in the experimint she put sayings are coments on the top of the roof of the hospitial and told no one abought theem.

Patiants that had died and come back to life by means of doctors efforts to do so and were on the meter as being clinicly dead once revived from there state had repeated the saying on the roof top word for word.

 

[Stronghold]

More reall than lucid dreaming Hahah Yea I would say that and a bit more like it was just as reall as this post.

I would have to put myself in the catagory of I just experianced the event no heaven and hell good are bad spirits that I could see but I was alone untill I called out and then a voice came to me and like I said started telling me what had happend wile I could see everything in a three damentenal experiance my boady lying face first in the kitchen counter the living room which was seperated by a wall from the kitchen and the dining erea were I was floating.


But here are what scientfic facts say abought the experiance also this is the first time I have ever researched it out other than watching the one story of the person doing research at the hospital which was a program I saw on TBN I believe but I havent told anyone this story but one friend I put it in the UFO catagory for years whos going to believe me for one and why wast my breath for two but hay life is to short so hear goes nothing..


An out-of-body experience (OBE or sometimes OOBE) is an experience that typically involves a sensation of floating outside of one's body and, in some cases, seeing one's physical body from a place outside one's body (autoscopy). Approximately one in ten people claim to have had an out-of-body experience at some time in their lives.[1] For some, the phenomenon occurs spontaneously, while for others it is linked to dangerous circumstances, a dream-like state, a near-death experience, or use of psychedelic drugs. Anyone is able to induce the experience deliberately through visualizations while in a relaxed, meditative state, or through a lucid dream. Relatively little is known with certainty about OBEs.[2] Recent studies have shown that OBEs can be induced by stimulating the angular gyrus at the temporal-parietal lobe junction. Basically it can be considered a type of hallucination in which the subject loses his mind due to delirium.

In some cases, the subjects of OBEs have either willed themselves out of their bodies or found themselves being pulled from their bodies (these instances were usually preceded by the feeling of paralysis). In other cases, the feeling of being outside the body was something suddenly realized after the fact; the subjects saw their bodies almost by accident.[3]

The OBE is not generally long; on the order of a minute or so. Those who experience an OBE may note that the subjective experience is much longer than the objective time passing.

The OBE may or may not be followed by other experiences which are self-reported as being "as real" as the OBE feeling; alternatively, the subject may fade into a state self-reported as dreaming, or they may wake completely. The OBE is sometimes ended due to a fearful feeling of getting "too far away" from the body. Many end with a feeling of suddenly "popping" or "snapping" and sometimes a "Pulling" back into their bodies, some even report being "sucked back" into physical form.

Some subjects experience spiritual epiphanies; others experience a general feeling of peacefulness and love; still others experience fearfulness and anxiety. Finally, some experience only the OBE itself, with no direct spiritual experience.

A majority describe the end of the experience as "then I woke up". It's worth noting that even (perhaps especially) those who describe the experience as something fantastic that occurs during sleep, and who describe the end of the experience by saying "and then I woke up", are very specific in describing the experience as one which was clearly not a dream; many described their sense of feeling more awake than they felt when they were normally awake. One compared the experience to that of lucid dreaming, but said that it was "more real".
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[Nullifidian]

Like I said there is no way on earth you can replacate my experiance and I have never had special k and was not on mind altering drugs so take my story are leave it I dont care your arguments arnt going to mean anything when you pass away thats what im telling you.

Good luck.

If you've never had ketamine, then how do you know one cannot replicate your experience?

It's also the case that if death is the end of everything, your arguments aren't going to mean anything to me after I pass away either. So what one should concentrate on are arguments that matter when one is still alive, and sadly yours are not doing very well on that score.

 

[Stronghold]

If you've never had ketamine, then how do you know one cannot replicate your experience?

It's also the case that if death is the end of everything, your arguments aren't going to mean anything to me after I pass away either. So what one should concentrate on are arguments that matter when one is still alive, and sadly yours are not doing very well on that score.

Says who you ?

Well when your ideas amount to nothing like your obvious cheap shots and your left with nothing to show for your life you wont be wairing a smilly face my friend .

And if you took anything from my story it would be that death is not the end and everything I have said rings true so it wont be my words you will remember and be judged for but how you served God in my openion.

And my story varry much is in the now do I apear to be dead to you?

I am telling you there is life after death and that is your best rebutel?

Go play with your Monkys Hahahah.

 

[zlya]

Sorry, I've been watching this conversation for a bit, and I just have to say something.

Sybarite--you must be an incredibly strong person. I read your experience, and I can't imagine the amount of strength it must have taken to go from that sort of background to become so confident in your self and your lifestyle and your choices. Not only that, but to post your extremely personal story for all to read, and then have to defend your choices against such close-mindedness . . . it's just amazing.

 

[Stronghold]

In science most things are still thought of as theorys which I disagree with like gravity and that is because the equashion is so large thay cant wright it all down but we know it exist right but it cant be proven because its beyond science to make a proper formula correct.


Well this doesnt even give an educated guess abought OBE.

Quote:Relatively little is known with certainty about OBEs- End Quote


Quote:2) Recent studies have shown that OBEs can be induced by stimulating the angular gyrus at the temporal-parietal lobe junction. Basically it can be considered a type of hallucination in which the subject loses his mind due to delirium.

A type of hallucination show me proff in case studys and the account of there experiances before making claims especially since thay admit little is known abought OBE's

Were all scientist here right show me proof some one has had the same experiance that I had by a state of delirum.

 

[Stronghold]

Sorry, I've been watching this conversation for a bit, and I just have to say something.

Sybarite--you must be an incredibly strong person. I read your experience, and I can't imagine the amount of strength it must have taken to go from that sort of background to become so confident in your self and your lifestyle and your choices. Not only that, but to post your extremely personal story for all to read, and then have to defend your choices against such close-mindedness . . . it's just amazing.

Close-mindedness from who you?

And last I saw we were nothing but empathetic so carry on with the insults and judgment that I have spaired you from .

 

[Nullifidian]

Says who you ?

Well when your ideas amount to nothing like your obvious cheap shots and your left with nothing to show for your life you wont be wairing a smilly face my friend .

I would say that doing what I do is considerably more likely to yield something to show for my life rather than wandering around being an abrasive, fundamentalist jerk.

And if you took anything from my story it would be that death is not the end and everything I have said rings true so it wont be my words you will remember and be judged for but how you served God in my openion.

Everything you said rings very much like a brain starved of oxygen and the same biochemical processes that are induced, artificially, by substances like ketamine.

You should read this about the kinds of mental experiences ketamine can generate: http://skepdic.com/nde.html

And my story varry much is in the now do I apear to be dead to you?

Please don't give me straight lines like this, and then tempt me to put them to use by acting the way you have.

I am telling you there is life after death and that is your best rebutel?

Since you're just telling me, and not adducing real evidence for it, "I am not convinced" is a perfectly proper rebuttal. When you come up with evidence that is more compelling than "Because I say so", then I'll have to address something with a bit of substance.

Go play with your Monkys Hahahah.

Why should I, when you can sling feces with the best of the howler monkeys?