Ten Reasons Gay Marriage is Un-American
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Nullifidian
New member
Yea just what I thought all you have to offer is crap
*sigh*
In the interests of productive conversation, is there any response to your unsubstantiated claims other than "Oh God! How can I have been so blind?! Of course God exists!" which would get any other reply than the above?
Stronghold
New member
That doesnt even make since..........................
You can start by asking a question instead of a reply like the above if your intent was to actually have dialog for one.
And back to topic which was not abought God to begin with I made a coment abought what I see that the bible says abought homosexuality and my openion hasent changed and from there the debate turned to a misinturpritation of the word of God which I spoke abought.
People have distorted the facts of the bible for over a thousand years hahah and im not the perfict christian by any means but I know what I believe and then some.
I dont have a problem with people living their lives the way thay want in peace I have my own openions abought life creation ect. and what has happend that I didnt want to happen is turn this thread into a me thread to save it for people that are homosexualls to hear abought their openions since thay are the ones that strugle with thees issues in reall life.
And you can clearly see by my post that that was my intent and not to preach to people but the word Christian was brought up in at least four to five post so I responded speaking as one.
And this was my statment.
Well im a Christian so I can only offer my point of view from how I interprite my bibble.
First off I want to say I believe God gave every one on earth the ability in their soal to see the truth and Gods light if the person is willing too except it.
The problem with that is once we see a truth it gets robed from us because we get lied too just like everyone else Hahaha.
So when I get confused what do I do?
Maby listen to a pastor?
Maby listen to public openion?
Maby listen to an athiest?
Well not in every case but alot of the time there opienion is just as confusing as mine so when I want to hear the absolute truth in my own mind I turn to (Jessus).....................
Well this is what he told me abought this matter.
St.Matthew Chapter 7
Judge not,that ye be not judged.
2 .for with what judgment ye judge,ye shall be judged;and with what messure ye mete,it shall be measured to you again.3.And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,but considerest not the beam that is in thin own eye?
My favorite part of that statment is the question mark and it is without parody and with all seriousness intended speaking not to the person open to the eye in Sin but to the vary people that would judge theem for it.
A message meant for all Christians, Athiest,everyone on the planet .
In my mind God sees all everyone has a Cross to bear offer suport not judgment I do not ask everyone to believe the way I do and I try to hold my toung as often as posibial Hahah but you can clearly see the diferance between the way I speak and the way Jesus speaks my toung will let you down from time to time but (Jesus )speaks truth with clear conviction.
So this post is not abought if God exist because I know for a fact that he does but rather abought how people cope with trying to live a life that thay choose to in homosexuality and I can tell the pain im not blind bring up the word God and homosexuality in the same sentance and watch people fight and slander each other.
Its vary evident and to be honest my intent was to heall some of that pain but we all have a bit of that dont we so sometimes if you cant reach a peace its best to walk away.
I still would like to thank everyone for there constructive arguments and also thank Sybaright for sharing her story I wish you nothing but the best believe me.
Take care.
Sybarite
New member
Zlya, thank you for your kind comments.
I haven't really engaged with the open debate forum since I joined, prefering to restrict myself to discussing music, but I feel strongly that ignorance or bigotry or intolerance cannot go unanswered. If using my own experiences is an effective way to do that, then I'm more than happy to do so.
And in a way those experiences taught me it took a long time to learn that openness is a good thing.
Sybarite
toejamfootball
New member
No offense, but its crazy to me that a book that is thousands of years old can still spark such debate..
You will never change each others mind just try to live in Peace with each other.
You will never change each others mind just try to live in Peace with each other.
Teo
Member
amen and awomen
LIGHT ON!
it's pretty sad. why someone is so sick to worry what someone else does in THEIR OWN bedroom..... humans are a broken invention! so cruel
LIGHT ON!
it's pretty sad. why someone is so sick to worry what someone else does in THEIR OWN bedroom..... humans are a broken invention!
so cruel
AeroScore
New member
humans are a broken invention!
Please, Teo, don't give up on us yet. We may be broken, but we do try to fix ourselves.
Look at it this way: go back 100 years, and picture yourself in London, or New York, or Madrid, or Des Moines, Iowa...would we be having this conversation? Would it even be an issue?
The fact that there is an open forum for like-minded (or even un-like minded) people to discuss the matters that matter to us should be a pretty good indication that there's hope for this species called Homo Sapiens yet.
Oops!...I said "homo...."
Dean
JohnM
New member
I have to say that we are all going to have to agree to disagree on this one - because too many people have too deep a view on the matter.
But I think it's worth remembering a few points
1) Even if you don't like the idea of it, homosexuality between two consenting adults is not going to affect you unless you choose to be one of those consenting adults. So why get upset about it?
2) Even if your religious convictions convince you that homosexuality is a sin, who is without sin?
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Peace, love and understanding, my friends!
But I think it's worth remembering a few points
1) Even if you don't like the idea of it, homosexuality between two consenting adults is not going to affect you unless you choose to be one of those consenting adults. So why get upset about it?
2) Even if your religious convictions convince you that homosexuality is a sin, who is without sin?
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Peace, love and understanding, my friends!
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Thomas Dressler
New member
Wow, I'm away for a few months, and look where things go!
I keep thinking back on the original thread, which was about whether gay marriage was American or not . . . and I see that this has moved into a discussion about whether it's CHRISTIAN or not. hmmm. Well, on one hand, I'm glad to see the focus is not so America-centric. On the other hand, I'd have to argue that for Americans, at least, whether it is Christian or not has little bearing on whether it's American or not, as this is not supposed to be a theocratic society.
But even if one wanted to argue the Christianity of it, I find that so many of these kinds of issues just cannot be solved conclusively because there are some who accept the Bible at face value and those who do not. You cannot use the Bible to prove anything when people are starting with a different outlook on the conclusiveness of the book. I, myself, find many an answer in the first and greatest commandment being, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart . . . and the second is like unto it--love your neighbor as yourself." However these ideas are not unique to Christianity, and neither is the idea that you should not do things to other people that you don't like done to yourself. These, to me, seem more important than all the other things, and they are things that just about any religion can agree with, as well as both those who are Biblical literalists and those who are not. If you leave out the part about God, I think even atheists can agree with them.
Why don't we stick with these and make sure we can do them well first? Even if these basic ideas do not give us the answers on this issue (and perhaps they might), they at least give guidelines on how to carry out the discussion.
And coming back to the "American" part of the original thread, I'd point out that there are about as many opinions on what is truly "American" as there are on what is truly "Christian." It is unfortunate, however, that those who argue about what a true American is have usually not done very much real reading about the founding of the country or the opinions and arguments of the founders (and perhaps their views on Christianity.)
It might be interesting to move away from quoting scriptures and begin quoting Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and others. The original laws of this country may have supported making homosexuality illegal, but they also supported making slavery legal. Kind of doesn't jive with the statement, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." At least in the case of "American-ness" it is very helpful to try to ascertain the SPIRIT of what is being said, as opposed to the letter of the laws, which were designed to evolve. I believe the true American spirit is to be found in the overall concepts, rather than the details, which are bound to evolve as understanding of humanity evolves.
The evolution away from slavery was not easy, nor was it pretty, especially as slavery itself is supported by the Bible. I would say that slavery is pretty unAmerican, so the conclusion that I would draw is that whether the Bible supports it or not is not necessarily relevant to its American-ness. And as this is not a theocratic society, and the founding fathers were very deliberate about NOT having a state religion, we need to try to find common denominators that can be accepted by many people, not just Christians.
I can think of some rampantly awful things going on either in our country or by our country that are, in my opinion, horribly unChristian, and many would argue, unAmerican. Perhaps it is my own version of Christianity (not mainstream, perhaps?) that feels that it is crucially, incredibly, unspeakably more important to worry about innocent people being killed and tortured and suffering, and the fact that so many Americans can not get health care, than to worry that two men or two women might love one another, and God forbid, even KISS one another, or even worse they might express their love physically. I think artillery and bombs and greedy love of money probably have caused untold more suffering in this world than two people of the same gender could ever cause by what they do with their genitals.
I keep thinking back on the original thread, which was about whether gay marriage was American or not . . . and I see that this has moved into a discussion about whether it's CHRISTIAN or not. hmmm. Well, on one hand, I'm glad to see the focus is not so America-centric. On the other hand, I'd have to argue that for Americans, at least, whether it is Christian or not has little bearing on whether it's American or not, as this is not supposed to be a theocratic society.
But even if one wanted to argue the Christianity of it, I find that so many of these kinds of issues just cannot be solved conclusively because there are some who accept the Bible at face value and those who do not. You cannot use the Bible to prove anything when people are starting with a different outlook on the conclusiveness of the book. I, myself, find many an answer in the first and greatest commandment being, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart . . . and the second is like unto it--love your neighbor as yourself." However these ideas are not unique to Christianity, and neither is the idea that you should not do things to other people that you don't like done to yourself. These, to me, seem more important than all the other things, and they are things that just about any religion can agree with, as well as both those who are Biblical literalists and those who are not. If you leave out the part about God, I think even atheists can agree with them.
Why don't we stick with these and make sure we can do them well first? Even if these basic ideas do not give us the answers on this issue (and perhaps they might), they at least give guidelines on how to carry out the discussion.
And coming back to the "American" part of the original thread, I'd point out that there are about as many opinions on what is truly "American" as there are on what is truly "Christian." It is unfortunate, however, that those who argue about what a true American is have usually not done very much real reading about the founding of the country or the opinions and arguments of the founders (and perhaps their views on Christianity.)
It might be interesting to move away from quoting scriptures and begin quoting Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and others. The original laws of this country may have supported making homosexuality illegal, but they also supported making slavery legal. Kind of doesn't jive with the statement, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." At least in the case of "American-ness" it is very helpful to try to ascertain the SPIRIT of what is being said, as opposed to the letter of the laws, which were designed to evolve. I believe the true American spirit is to be found in the overall concepts, rather than the details, which are bound to evolve as understanding of humanity evolves.
The evolution away from slavery was not easy, nor was it pretty, especially as slavery itself is supported by the Bible. I would say that slavery is pretty unAmerican, so the conclusion that I would draw is that whether the Bible supports it or not is not necessarily relevant to its American-ness. And as this is not a theocratic society, and the founding fathers were very deliberate about NOT having a state religion, we need to try to find common denominators that can be accepted by many people, not just Christians.
I can think of some rampantly awful things going on either in our country or by our country that are, in my opinion, horribly unChristian, and many would argue, unAmerican. Perhaps it is my own version of Christianity (not mainstream, perhaps?) that feels that it is crucially, incredibly, unspeakably more important to worry about innocent people being killed and tortured and suffering, and the fact that so many Americans can not get health care, than to worry that two men or two women might love one another, and God forbid, even KISS one another, or even worse they might express their love physically. I think artillery and bombs and greedy love of money probably have caused untold more suffering in this world than two people of the same gender could ever cause by what they do with their genitals.
Sybarite
New member
Super post, Thomas.
Just to add, I think that defining any form of nationality is fraught with problems because it so subjective; it's exactly the same in England – one person's English is not the same as another person's. Perhaps that very point illustrates the fact that, as pluralist societies, it will be inevitable that we will see things that we might not like for ourselves. Unless we dump any pretensions to democracy and pluralism, and opt instead for a dictatorship/theocracy, then we all need to rub along with those whose differences we do not like.
Just to add, I think that defining any form of nationality is fraught with problems because it so subjective; it's exactly the same in England – one person's English is not the same as another person's. Perhaps that very point illustrates the fact that, as pluralist societies, it will be inevitable that we will see things that we might not like for ourselves. Unless we dump any pretensions to democracy and pluralism, and opt instead for a dictatorship/theocracy, then we all need to rub along with those whose differences we do not like.
Thomas Dressler
New member
Thanks! Yes, I think as long as people are not hurting one another, we need to just not worry about our differences. Certainly gay marriage does not hurt anybody. I can never understand why this issue can stir people up into a frenzy around election time, and things like our terribly unfair health care system (which does, by denying care to people, hurt people--maybe LOTS of them) doesn't get people riled up. Maybe with Michael Moore's new movie, Sicko, we'll get on to more important things.
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
I find it most amusing that straight people actually have an opinion of being gay (marriage or whatever) when it's really nothing that concerns them.
I do not attend Mardis Gras (in Sydney) any more because I don't see the point. One fellow Australian mentioned that Australia has no T.V. show with gay people being "the norm". Why would we? Mardis Gras has now become mainstream and even grandma and the grandkiddies turn up ... spare me. I remember the good ol' days when it was a real stonewall protest march for equality. Equality in the workplace primarly.
As to gay marriage? I just can't see Australia adopting it. Too many Kath and Kims out there who think that poofters and dykes should just not be seen. In Sydney, the Anglican church is homophobic, especially the main cathedral of St. Andrew and it's clergy. I've heard their tirades against the gay lifestyle and I can only say, I hope you're ready to explain your actions to god when you meet him...because it's not a very Christian way of acting.
I had lunch with a Danish friend of mine (who lives in Sydney). She's travelling to Denmark to attend her brothers marriage, in a Lutheran Church, to his partner (male). Good luck to them both, I wish Australia was so "togther" on social issues as little Denmark.
Bravo to Lotus for bringing this topic up here, it's about time.
I do not attend Mardis Gras (in Sydney) any more because I don't see the point. One fellow Australian mentioned that Australia has no T.V. show with gay people being "the norm". Why would we? Mardis Gras has now become mainstream and even grandma and the grandkiddies turn up ... spare me. I remember the good ol' days when it was a real stonewall protest march for equality. Equality in the workplace primarly.
As to gay marriage? I just can't see Australia adopting it. Too many Kath and Kims out there who think that poofters and dykes should just not be seen. In Sydney, the Anglican church is homophobic, especially the main cathedral of St. Andrew and it's clergy. I've heard their tirades against the gay lifestyle and I can only say, I hope you're ready to explain your actions to god when you meet him...because it's not a very Christian way of acting.
I had lunch with a Danish friend of mine (who lives in Sydney). She's travelling to Denmark to attend her brothers marriage, in a Lutheran Church, to his partner (male). Good luck to them both, I wish Australia was so "togther" on social issues as little Denmark.
Bravo to Lotus for bringing this topic up here, it's about time.
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Yeah - rojo - i did read the humour into the thread, trust me, but it snowballed into something slightly more debatable (and so suitable for this august house).
greatcyber
New member
I find the majority of posts in this thread to be disgusting!
Firstly, when people who quote Bible scripture from the Old Testament and consider themselves to be "Christians" they are in fact, hypocrites. Christ was manifested on earth to absolve the sins of the world. He preached to love your enemy. His teachings, in essence replace what was written in the Old Testament.
Studying the Bible for (wow) a whole year doesn't make you an expert. To HATE homosexuality is also anti-Christian, as a TRUE Christian does not hate...period!
Thank you to the posters that seem to understand what the future of the world will be, and that will be peace among ALL peoples. The world has been destroyed four times and will be destroyed again...and it is to rid itself of exactly the type of rhetoric that is being spewed here.
I am not even a practicing Christian, but by the sounds of it, I am MORE Christian than many. I know right from wrong as does everyone. It is simply wrong to put your morals onto another's life as you have no idea what it is like to walk in their shoes.
Shame on you posters who use random words from thousands of years ago for your OWN agenda. I detest discussions on religion as it always tends to get peoples' dander up and many feel that their's is THE one, true religion. So, be content in your own selfish minds. Hate all you want to. If you expect that will get you into heaven, then you are sadly mistaken.
BTW, Will and Grace was a satirical look at the stereotypical gay man. It continually amazes me that there can be so many current television programs that openly discuss homosexuality and show how it really has no effect on anyone else's life, unless they CHOOSE to let it. Yet some continue to "say" that they accept it in someone else yet they do not actually, in practice.
There is no such thing as a "reformed" gay person. They are merely living a frustrating lie, thanks to the moral judgment inflicted on them by society.
God, am I glad I got out of America!
Stephen
Firstly, when people who quote Bible scripture from the Old Testament and consider themselves to be "Christians" they are in fact, hypocrites. Christ was manifested on earth to absolve the sins of the world. He preached to love your enemy. His teachings, in essence replace what was written in the Old Testament.
Studying the Bible for (wow) a whole year doesn't make you an expert. To HATE homosexuality is also anti-Christian, as a TRUE Christian does not hate...period!
Thank you to the posters that seem to understand what the future of the world will be, and that will be peace among ALL peoples. The world has been destroyed four times and will be destroyed again...and it is to rid itself of exactly the type of rhetoric that is being spewed here.
I am not even a practicing Christian, but by the sounds of it, I am MORE Christian than many. I know right from wrong as does everyone. It is simply wrong to put your morals onto another's life as you have no idea what it is like to walk in their shoes.
Shame on you posters who use random words from thousands of years ago for your OWN agenda. I detest discussions on religion as it always tends to get peoples' dander up and many feel that their's is THE one, true religion. So, be content in your own selfish minds. Hate all you want to. If you expect that will get you into heaven, then you are sadly mistaken.
BTW, Will and Grace was a satirical look at the stereotypical gay man. It continually amazes me that there can be so many current television programs that openly discuss homosexuality and show how it really has no effect on anyone else's life, unless they CHOOSE to let it. Yet some continue to "say" that they accept it in someone else yet they do not actually, in practice.
There is no such thing as a "reformed" gay person. They are merely living a frustrating lie, thanks to the moral judgment inflicted on them by society.
God, am I glad I got out of America!
Stephen
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methodistgirl
New member
I will agree. Some of these earlier post really surprise me. My faith in God
shouldn't have to be bound up in a religion. Jesus had the same issues
with the Pharisees and Saddusees with their religion. It's easier to be a
hypocrite than a real believer. Remember when they took an adulteress
before Jesus to stone her and what he did to settle it? They probably
were some of the guys that did it with her. Mixed marriages used to be
a big talk. Before making gay people such a big issue we need to look
at our own selves at what we do everyday. The Bible does say this that
we all sin even us believers. I will always make sinful mistakes everyday
and that is what repentance is for. It hurts me to hear someone brag
about being saved for years. That is fine and dandy but do they pray
for hidden sins they could have committed? Instead of playing with the
bondage of religion, do what the bible says and just trust in God and
his mercy. I'm the type of person who uses a little understanding.
I can't judge people because I know I need to look at myself first.
Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because the people were gay!
The real truth, they were into witchcraft, wizardry, and other ways
of the occult even satanic worship and God is a jealous God. That
is why the two places were burnt up. That I don't like. There is a
psychic that keeps emailing me where I have to keep deleting her
messages. If I want to see the future that bad I ask for it in a dream
and God delivers!
judy tooley
shouldn't have to be bound up in a religion. Jesus had the same issues
with the Pharisees and Saddusees with their religion. It's easier to be a
hypocrite than a real believer. Remember when they took an adulteress
before Jesus to stone her and what he did to settle it? They probably
were some of the guys that did it with her. Mixed marriages used to be
a big talk. Before making gay people such a big issue we need to look
at our own selves at what we do everyday. The Bible does say this that
we all sin even us believers. I will always make sinful mistakes everyday
and that is what repentance is for. It hurts me to hear someone brag
about being saved for years. That is fine and dandy but do they pray
for hidden sins they could have committed? Instead of playing with the
bondage of religion, do what the bible says and just trust in God and
his mercy. I'm the type of person who uses a little understanding.
I can't judge people because I know I need to look at myself first.
Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because the people were gay!
The real truth, they were into witchcraft, wizardry, and other ways
of the occult even satanic worship and God is a jealous God. That
is why the two places were burnt up. That I don't like. There is a
psychic that keeps emailing me where I have to keep deleting her
messages. If I want to see the future that bad I ask for it in a dream
and God delivers!
judy tooley
greatcyber
New member
Thank you, Judy, for being such a wonderful soul and making such a kind and understanding response. Eventually (and luckily) that same logic shall encompass all mankind if mankind is to survive. It's funny how things work in life. I was reading the recent posts about the 2012 prophecies and learned some new and interesting things from reading and researching on the web. Then just the other night there was a program on CLC (Canadian Learning Channel) about ancient prophecies. More than a dozen people whom civilized man considered to be prophets have in one way or shape all said the same thing relative to predicting the end of the world as we know it.
Maybe it wouldn't really be such a bad thing to "wipe the slate clean" and start all over again. Perhaps humanity will get it right the next time. If not, well then the meek shall inherit the earth...not the high and mighty.
Stephen
Maybe it wouldn't really be such a bad thing to "wipe the slate clean" and start all over again. Perhaps humanity will get it right the next time. If not, well then the meek shall inherit the earth...not the high and mighty.
Stephen
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Greatcyber - Australia, at least Sydney, is quite gay friendly. However, mainstream Australia is not. I think that you'll stumble across homophobia everywhere, even amongst the gay community. Some separatist lesbians espouse the view that men are redundant and gay men usless. I say to these people? Why do you have such strong opinions? It's obvious, anyone who is overtly homophobic and quotes the Bible (god help us) is merely prooving one thing: weakness of character in my opinion.
I joined the early Mardis-Gras marches in Sydney (late 70s early 80s) because they were marches for people's rights (in those days it was a nasty business, with all the rednecks spitting at you and shouting such things as "f.....g fags, burn in hell". Now, the Mardis-Gras has become a family affair with grandma and the grandkiddies all turning up, I just don't see the point in supporting it anymore.
If you really think Canada is gay heaven, I think you will be sadly shocked. As much as I adore Canada and have family on the west coast (BC) I've met just as many redneck self opinionated bible quoting pigs there as anywhere. But, one finds ones comfortable zone for living and if you find one where you can be who you are without persection you are truly blessed.
I joined the early Mardis-Gras marches in Sydney (late 70s early 80s) because they were marches for people's rights (in those days it was a nasty business, with all the rednecks spitting at you and shouting such things as "f.....g fags, burn in hell". Now, the Mardis-Gras has become a family affair with grandma and the grandkiddies all turning up, I just don't see the point in supporting it anymore.
If you really think Canada is gay heaven, I think you will be sadly shocked. As much as I adore Canada and have family on the west coast (BC) I've met just as many redneck self opinionated bible quoting pigs there as anywhere. But, one finds ones comfortable zone for living and if you find one where you can be who you are without persection you are truly blessed.
greatcyber
New member
Amen @ CT. I realize that there is homophobia everywhere, at least to some extent. However, at least in Canada, from what I have experienced and read on the government web sites, "intolerance" in not tolerated! Here everyone has the same opportunities, rights and guarantees by the government to live in a peaceful manner, gay or straight.
Heck, my husband and I have already got many "straight" couples beat when it comes to how long we have been together. And yes, I think I have found a truly wonderful place to live and we do consider ourselves to be extremely blessed now. Thanks.
I do look forward to the day (I will most likely be long dead) when it just isn't an issue. I take heart in knowing that my step-daughter's generation has been raised to be more tolerant and accepting and their children will hopefully continue to evolve.
Stephen
I don't mind people quoting the Bible, but if someone is to do that and expect anyone to take them seriously, then they have to LIVE by what they preach. So if they want to live in the times of the Old Testament...they'd better not eat shellfish or surely they should be stoned to death...and they should EXPECT to be. That's what I mean about hypocracy. You don't get to pick and choose what happens to be right for the moment. If that is the case, one could twist the words of ANY passage to convey a thought...It's called "spin."
Heck, my husband and I have already got many "straight" couples beat when it comes to how long we have been together. And yes, I think I have found a truly wonderful place to live and we do consider ourselves to be extremely blessed now. Thanks.
I do look forward to the day (I will most likely be long dead) when it just isn't an issue. I take heart in knowing that my step-daughter's generation has been raised to be more tolerant and accepting and their children will hopefully continue to evolve.
Stephen
I don't mind people quoting the Bible, but if someone is to do that and expect anyone to take them seriously, then they have to LIVE by what they preach. So if they want to live in the times of the Old Testament...they'd better not eat shellfish or surely they should be stoned to death...and they should EXPECT to be. That's what I mean about hypocracy. You don't get to pick and choose what happens to be right for the moment. If that is the case, one could twist the words of ANY passage to convey a thought...It's called "spin."
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