Ten Reasons Gay Marriage is Un-American

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drummergirlamie

New member
If a child was to be brought up by wolves it would not become a wolf. Nor does a child brought up in a homosexual home become homosexual. Nobody says otherwise. But the wisest and best way for a child and for society is that children should be brought up in the union between a man and a woman. A child deserves this. Plain and simple. Ask anyone who has no axe to grind on this issue.

Let us please keep our analogies within the realm of realism, kind Sir? The Jungle Book reference was just a little much, dontcha think?

I don't have an axe to grind with these people other than on this specific facet of the gay issue. This is probably why I pose as such threat. They now know that there are people like me, that have gay friends and family members, that hold those people in high regard, that will step up to the mic. and speak on their behalf, etc.

But when it comes to something morally sound and that person doesn't agree with them but rather with what's right instead, they can't handle it.

Sad Really. Like I said before, it's never enough, is it?
 

greatcyber

New member
Try reading the New Testament...we aren't living in the stone age anymore. The people that are doing that are also the zealots that the common world knows as terrorists. Look to Christ and his teachings and look at yourself.

Drummergirlamie, I will give some a few links to read, may more can be found by a simple google. I am speaking from experience and I personally know of 5 gay couples who have adopted and/or had their own children and they are most definitely not gay in orientation. My husband's daughter was raised by a gay father and she is not gay. She just graduated from Carnegie Mellon with honors, so obviously, her emotional and intellectual criteria have not sufferred, nor is she likely to turn gay. If you think I have demeaned myself, so be it. I just detest when people talk about things when all they have is an opinion, not facts.

All I know is that I now thankfully live in a more progressive and tolerant society and would never contemplate moving back to a country where such hypocrisy rules the day. Canada is a very refreshing place to live.
Here's a start on the subject:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07161/793042-51.stm

http://mediamatters.org/items/200612150001

http://www.bloggernews.net/17669

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/parenting/37902res20081125.html

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080612225134AAfnofL

BTW, I never mind honest discussion on the topic, as long as one keeps an open mind. The world continues to evolve and we, as humans, must do the same.

That is the Least that I expect and if it isn't something that will be afforded to me here, then I will just choose not to bother to come to this forum anymore. I don't trash people for being "straight" so the very least I would expect is a little respect.
 
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To be honest, I honestly think that the mention of children being brought up under gay parents should not be mentioned - because even if you have research (actual empirically documented research) the passions of the 'anti-homosexual union' camp would still win. End of story.

And last I checked, Spain is a very religious country - and has been so over the past few hundred years.

As for the reasoning behind the Christian view (aside from some ambiguous biblical passages):

When a man marries and is about to offer himself to men in womanly fashion [quum vir nubit in feminam viris porrecturam], what does he wish, when sex has lost all its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed to another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be, guilty may be subjected to exquisite punishment. (Theodosian Code 9.8.3)

The 'passions' under discussion here are those expressed by homosexuals, not those who are not. The 'passions' of homosexuals are those which, contrary to the plain teachings of human history, to that of sacred scripture, and even contrary to the best interests of a third party, young children themselves, now complain they are being victimised by society !

Life is choice. The choices we have are already bought for us. If an individual chooses to run contrary to what is proved to be in the best interests of society and of children - if they are determined to live in a homosexual union, then, of course, they are voluntarily separating themselves from the plain teachings of the Christian message. Which is unfortunate. But they should certainly not be persecuted for being homosexual.

I have several friends who are homosexual. They know my views and I remain friendly to them. I like and respect them as friends. And I respect their right to choose things for themselves.

There is nothing 'ambiguous' about this issue. And, make no mistake, there is no ambiguity about what the bible teaches on this issue. Life is choice. It cannot be denied the results of a person's sexual choice have clear and profound impacts on the upbringing of a young person who may be in their care. That is surely indisputable. And that, beyond reasonable doubt, is where homosexual union becomes wrong.

Still, I believe in a tolerant society. If one wishes to live in this way it's exclusively a Christian society (as you admit yourself) which allows it to be so. But that puts the person outside of Christian society. Voluntarily.

The dispassionate judgement is the one that matters - and it's already been made.
 

jawoodruff

New member
I would like to know what history you are referring to? And please, lets refrain from mentioning ancient history - because obviously, aside from the Judaic texts, I can see that you have very little familiarity. Prior to 300 ce - 500 ce, homosexuality was not even a taboo in most cultures. You had a fairly liberal sexual morality. It was not until the spread of christian theology - and furthermore the fall of Rome - that one saw a complete rethinking of human sexual values. In those epochs, sexual identification was based solely on dominance and submissiveness (masculine role and feminine role). Men, regardless of their identification, were still required to marry (for fulfilment of property rights, succession, etc).

As for biblical ambiguity, how does one exactly lay with a man as he would a woman? That is a very ambiguous statement if there ever were one. Physically, its impossible. The other text in the bible, by Paul, is a little more concise but still does not mention same-sex relations. Also, notice - again - that lesbianism is not mentioned? Perhaps if the biblical patrons were matriarchal and encompassed a less masculine view of the world, this would be touched upon, yes?
 
I would like to know what history you are referring to? And please, lets refrain from mentioning ancient history - because obviously, aside from the Judaic texts, I can see that you have very little familiarity. Prior to 300 ce - 500 ce, homosexuality was not even a taboo in most cultures. You had a fairly liberal sexual morality. It was not until the spread of christian theology - and furthermore the fall of Rome - that one saw a complete rethinking of human sexual values. In those epochs, sexual identification was based solely on dominance and submissiveness (masculine role and feminine role). Men, regardless of their identification, were still required to marry (for fulfilment of property rights, succession, etc).

As for biblical ambiguity, how does one exactly lay with a man as he would a woman? That is a very ambiguous statement if there ever were one. Physically, its impossible. The other text in the bible, by Paul, is a little more concise but still does not mention same-sex relations. Also, notice - again - that lesbianism is not mentioned? Perhaps if the biblical patrons were matriarchal and encompassed a less masculine view of the world, this would be touched upon, yes?


Hi there Jawoodruff,

You begin by asking the totally naive question of, 'what history' (?). I am of course refering to the history of the entire world during the last 2000 years plus. Is that enough history for you or would you like more ? But no sooner do you ask me to avoid ancient history than you quote from it yourself ! This seems to me a case of double standards, don't you agree ?

(You next ask me to 'refrain from mentioning ancient history').

OK, by your own request, ancient history is now off limits in this discussion and so too is 2,000 years of history. See how much concession is being made to accomodate your views ? So let's see if we can deal with the results of homosexuality being promoted and practiced widely in our own times.

What is your view of this fact -

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...gainst+homosexuality&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

The above article carries news of the jailing of a Christian minister in Sweden - for preaching against homosexuality !!! Doesn't it ? Yes, the jailing of a man who is teaching from the bible !! Would you like further examples ?

As for your own highly selective (and vague) 'understanding' of what the bible teaches on this homosexual issue (which is as clear as mud) tell us clearly what that source teaches on it please ? For, so far, you are simply being vague.

I repeat you have a right as an individual to be a homosexual and I even agree you have a right to hold views and to express them which tolerate it within society. (Where these rights came from is totally unknown to you, it seems). Your rights I respect though I strongly disagree with your views. I also know your views are contradicted by 2,000 years of social history and by common sense. Facts which you are again denying. Also contradicted by the teachings of the bible. And by every study ever made on vulnerable children, their own best interests, and their own education. A child being allowed to grow up in a homosexual home is a plain case of the individual rights of homosexuals being valued more highly than rights of youngsters themselves. Such a thing is clear, obvious and indisputable.

Unless you're arguing it's in the best interests of a child to grow up within a homosexual home or in a society where homosexual unions are encouraged then, by definition, it is NOT and cannot be in the child's best interest that he/she is forced to grow up in such an environment. Why not think of the rights of others such as these children rather than those of your own self and your own individual rights ?
 
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jawoodruff

New member
And I know that your historical view of even the last 2000 years is wrong. Homosexuality, in name alone, was not coined until the latter parts of the 19th century. And even then it had a completely different meaning and social value than it does today (the term then referred to male prostitutes largely, as evidenced empirically by the case studies from that time period). As for the bible, I have studied the text in depth as well as the social values of the time. In my humble opinion, If I am going to follow a tradition's beliefs then I want to ensure that I know exactly where those beliefs come from and what exactly those beliefs mean. The Christian train ran off to the nuthouse with many of the Judaic principles - biggest example is in the basic context of what heaven and hell is. In the end of all this debate, however, there is one thing that you seem not to understand. While my arguments have only 'touched' upon religion yours seem to be completely grounded in it. Religious viewpoints are many and diverse. Quote other religious idea. Point it out. Lets see what other traditions have to say. Use them as well to back up your ideology. Not everyone in this country is Christian - and suffice it to say, I'd venture a guess that the country truly is far from its faithful past.
As for children, what gives you the right to tell a person what he/she can and can not do? Did God himself come down and bestow upon you the right of Divine Authority? And even if he did not, how do you KNOW whats in the best interest of a child? Even heterosexual couples make mistakes in raising children - one only needs to look at the Nations federal prison system to see this or perhaps, even better, look at the statistics for molestation/rape (the majority of which are committed by heterosexual men). Makes me almost want to question how anyone can be a parent, to be honest.
 
Well, Jason,

In reply to my question of what the bible actually teaches on the issue of homosexuality you seen determined to avoid giving us a plain answer. So let's make a further concession to you (though goodness knows you've had enough already). We will not talk of ancient history. We will not even talk of the last 2,000 years of social history. And now (just to help you give us an answer) we will not even talk about what the bible teaches - the bible being, as you may already be aware, the very basis of that morality which says 'Do unto others as you would like others to do unto you' - the Golden Rule.

Now, let me ask you this, 'With your rights and responsibilities do you feel that a child has the right to be brought up in a home free from homosexuality' ? That is, within the context of a family whose heads are a man and a woman ? And that it's in the best interests of society that they are brought up in that context ?

You say the actual term 'homosexuality' was not coined until the 'latter parts of the 19th century'. But this is merely playing with words. The fact is (and the Old Testament is only one place where you can instantly see it), the practices of homosexuality were outlawed as long ago as the 2nd millenium BC. As already said.

You ask what the best interests of children actually are ? Well, in answer to your question, the entire weight of the evidence says that children are ideally raised within the context of a father and mother who are legally responsible for them. Isn't that so ?

But why state what is already very plain ?
 

greatcyber

New member
I'm glad to see that now, at least there appears to be a little more rational debate going on. Kudos to you all.

For those of you who think that homosexuality is a "choice" you couldn't be further from the truth. Scientists have now discovered a gene that is a predictor of sexual preference. It does not stem from anything that a parent did or did not do while raising their child. Nor is it a product of one's environment.

And for those that think that children exposed to same sex parents will grow up to emulate them, that could not be more false. Just THINK about that for a minute. If that were true, then I would be heterosexual, would I not? But yet I am gay.

As for the Bible, since when is that the prime directive for ALL humankind? Is it fair to dismiss all other religions and their beliefs and teachings? After all, the Bible is only a compilation of writings that was put together thousands of years ago. Evidence this further by realizing that there are even different versions of this book, according to who was in power at a certain time.

Separate but equal does not stand in the eyes of God, I'm sure. Love the sinner but hate the sin doesn't fly either. Hate is not espoused by any true Christian. Exactly just whom did Christ hate? Did he not preach exactly the opposite?

History is filled with people using (warping) religion to suit their own purposes, i.e. The Crusades, Fatwa, etc.

To point out a few examples about warping religion, let's use the Roman Catholic Church. Their foundation - the 10 commandments. OK, how many of those has the church twisted and/or broken?

1. I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

How many Catholics pray to and worship "saints" for a particular reason? Wouldn't that be idolatry?

2. Remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy.

But the pope changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday due to his wishes back during that time as a "convenience."

3. Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery.

How many priests have dismissed their vow of being chaste and have had carnal knowledge of naive women and/or preyed upon children? The churches reaction? Cover it up. Pay off the families when they got caught.

Best I can remember, Christ preached to his disciples to give up their worldly goods and follow him. How then can one justify the dynasties that the church has amassed?

4. Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.

Does this hold true? Not as evidenced by society.

One might do better to regard the Old Testament as a history book. Surely it cannot be taken literally in it's entirety. God was so unhappy with mankind that he manifested his son as a human to teach a better way. In essence, it was meant to be a fresh start. You really can't have it both ways.

How many people are pious when they are at church and then are self-absorbed, greedy hate mongers the minute they step foot outside the building? I'm talking about being realistic. How many Christians can you look at and say, hey - how Christ-like?

In ancient Judea, when the San Hedron (spelling?) felt their comfort zone and power threatened by Jesus' teachings, how did they react? Why, kill him, of course. Never mind that it is contrary to the Holy Laws laid down by God and delivered via Moses.

So, religion is not necessarily the end-all answer. There are too many religions in the world and there is no one on earth who can say one religion is right and another wrong. Most share common characteristics and ideals, the principle ones being to love one another, share with those less fortunate, do good deeds and reap the rewards in the end.

Much of religion is a suggested way of living. Some ancient religions are now referred to as "mythology." But at the time, it was what people believed to be true and they acted as such. But as mankind has evolved and become educated and science has developed, we now understand certain beliefs were just not true. But minds where not as sophisticated back then, so they adopted what they could comprehend at the time.

It all comes down to reasoning. If one believes in God, any God, then they need to accept that God created man in his own image. That includes everyone, whether you happen to like the way they look or act or what they believe.

If you believe in evolution, which is kind of hard to dismiss due to all the scientific documentation to back it up, then you will have to admit that it is a never-ending cycle of survival of the fittest. That nature takes care of things and eventually, restores balance to the planet.

Would that people look beyond stereotypes and accept others as simply humans occupying the same planet and that diversity is one of the marvels of the universe, perhaps the world would be a better place.

There is no one absolute in life, other than you are born, live and die. Anything else is nothing more than conjecture.

Before I end this I have one question to those "who have the genuine concern for the child" at heart, how many of these children have you ever offered to be a foster parent for?

I hope I have given you all something to reflect upon.
 
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drummergirlamie

New member
Try reading the New Testament...we aren't living in the stone age anymore. The people that are doing that are also the zealots that the common world knows as terrorists. Look to Christ and his teachings and look at yourself.

Drummergirlamie, I will give some a few links to read, may more can be found by a simple google. I am speaking from experience and I personally know of 5 gay couples who have adopted and/or had their own children and they are most definitely not gay in orientation. My husband's daughter was raised by a gay father and she is not gay. She just graduated from Carnegie Mellon with honors, so obviously, her emotional and intellectual criteria have not sufferred, nor is she likely to turn gay. If you think I have demeaned myself, so be it. I just detest when people talk about things when all they have is an opinion, not facts.

All I know is that I now thankfully live in a more progressive and tolerant society and would never contemplate moving back to a country where such hypocrisy rules the day. Canada is a very refreshing place to live.
Here's a start on the subject:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07161/793042-51.stm

http://mediamatters.org/items/200612150001

http://www.bloggernews.net/17669

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/parenting/37902res20081125.html

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080612225134AAfnofL

BTW, I never mind honest discussion on the topic, as long as one keeps an open mind. The world continues to evolve and we, as humans, must do the same.

That is the Least that I expect and if it isn't something that will be afforded to me here, then I will just choose not to bother to come to this forum anymore. I don't trash people for being "straight" so the very least I would expect is a little respect.

Respect is what I've given you and what I've always given those around me that have made it clear they are gay or of an aberrant postition in terms of their sexuality. Remember, you first affronted me with the, "ugly and ignorant" reference to my post. Regardless, I've continued to read your replies and have tried to do so with an open mind despite writing the stock of which had fallen. Second, I don't like the word straight because that would make you what, crooked? I think not. Do I like men? Very much so. Do I think their a pain in the ass sometimes? Very much so. I don't think the fact I haven't given up on them makes me straight, level, in-line, plumb or whatever the hell else they're callin' someone like me these days. I don't feel as though your deserving of a label of any kind either. You read as though you've been through enough with yourself to know for certain who you truly are and that's wonderful. I've been through a great deal myself. I had a marriage that didn't work out due to my inability to tolerate his desire to be with other woman, terminating at the point he went to bed with one of my best friends. Despite the fact I claim to have not given up on them, this experience has probably effected the way or extent to which I allow a man to know me. I mention this due to my hearing of so many short-term gay relationships and the instability of which that cannot support the proper raising of a child. This is yet another reason I'm opposed to gay couples adopting. To reinforce this stance, I hate the thought of the position our child would be in had my ex-husband and I had one in light of what became of us. Please believe I am not beyond reason and only wish to thoroughly consider mine and all other positions for this is a VERY SERIOUS ISSUE. Also consider the unlikelyhood that I'm the only one on this site that feels this way but seemingly the only one to post to such extent. But hey, that's part of what this place is about, right? On that note let me suggest we start somewhat fresh as I'll take yet another hard look at myself and my position on this issue. Best wishes, Amie.
 

jawoodruff

New member
Well, Jason,

In reply to my question of what the bible actually teaches on the issue of homosexuality you seen determined to avoid giving us a plain answer. So let's make a further concession to you (though goodness knows you've had enough already). We will not talk of ancient history. We will not even talk of the last 2,000 years of social history. And now (just to help you give us an answer) we will not even talk about what the bible teaches - the bible being, as you may already be aware, the very basis of that morality which says 'Do unto others as you would like others to do unto you' - the Golden Rule.

Now, let me ask you this, 'With your rights and responsibilities do you feel that a child has the right to be brought up in a home free from homosexuality' ? That is, within the context of a family whose heads are a man and a woman ? And that it's in the best interests of society that they are brought up in that context ?

You say the actual term 'homosexuality' was not coined until the 'latter parts of the 19th century'. But this is merely playing with words. The fact is (and the Old Testament is only one place where you can instantly see it), the practices of homosexuality were outlawed as long ago as the 2nd millenium BC. As already said.

You ask what the best interests of children actually are ? Well, in answer to your question, the entire weight of the evidence says that children are ideally raised within the context of a father and mother who are legally responsible for them. Isn't that so ?

But why state what is already very plain ?

Oh, where to begin in the dismantling of all this. First, I would like an actual reference on same sex relations being banned as early as the 2nd millenium bc. The Egyptians, Arabian nomads, Babylonians, and many other cultures of the inhabited 'civilized' world of the time had no laws banning same sex relations. The closest law was Assyrian and mainly dealt with a man of power submitting himself to another man (power and sex at the time went hand in hand). There is an Egyptian tomb, as a matter of fact, that is from this time period that housed two men with wall murals depicting one as feminine in character and in the repose traditionally held by a woman.
I feel, as for parenting, that great care must be taken not to mix one's sexual desires in. Young children especially do not need to be privy to sex in any regard. Older children (especially Teens, and I speak from experience on this) need to see their parents as being stable and confident in life. This includes, also, sexuality. I lived in a heterosexual family. My mother was not the 'prim and proper' mother - I have many hilarious, though scary, stories! Whether the parents are gay or straight really makes no difference, really. My uncle, who happens to be gay, has two grown children. My cousins have tremendous respect for their father. Their mother, on the other hand, is a different story. Where he showed the boys the unconditional love one only receives from a parent, she showed them the exact opposite. For me, thats a real life case study. And not the only one that I've seen first hand - from both heterosexual and homosexual parents. I'd go into another, but... well, I'm sure one story will suffice. The truth is, on this, that again what matters is the appearance of the parents to the children.
As for your roles (man/woman), thats an awful barbaric way to look at upbringing - especially in this age where most parenting occurs outside the home via electronic communication (and in some instances, inside the home as well). Children are exposed throughout upbringing to many instances of masculine and feminine qualities. Whether by television, school, play with friends, etc. In a one hour television viewtime alone, that child will most likely have seen many diverse forms of both qualities (to go even more down by minute, sit through commercials). The idea of a Nuclear family is long gone (pretty much died in the 80's with the rise in 'latch-key' kids). Even in ancient times, you had a very diverse family composition. The Romans were largely headed by men in the household - the idea of dominance was very key to most Roman contacts (marriage was no exception - hence why Nero was ridiculed for marrying a man who was dominant over him). The Egyptians were far more religious than the jews - but yet, had no laws condemning homosexual relations; their households were split between being headed by men and woman (quite different from the male lead). I could go on all day with this. I will state something, however, that should be said. The very reason Judaism is around now has largely to do with topics such as this. From around the codification of the Pentatuch (700 - 500 b.c.e), the Jewish people separated themselves from the norms of the region. Many of the laws in the Bible, are clear representations of this (i.e. prohibition on idolatry, circumsizing of males, purification, laws concerning sexuality, and yes...even the dietary laws). To say that the Jewish people are a fair representation of the historical region is wrong in logic and wrong in fact. It is this very thing that, in fact, has helped in their survival through the last 4000 years of invasions, wars, many holocausts, and dispersions. That the early Christians arose from the Jewish identity and not any other is also a result of these early decisions in the history of the Jewish faith.
To end, I think one last bit of comment on this topic. Many of your views, and those shared by others, on the topic of sexuality, homosexuality, etc., stem from the Victorian ideals (along with the idea of the Nuclear family) of the late 19th century. These beliefs are not necessarily bad..but, in my opinion they don't clearly reflect the full sprectrum of human experience. Humanity comes, and has always come, in many different stripes. From the shy to the chatty cathy. From the austere to the extremely annoying and happy. From the sexual purist to the sexually obsessed. To place a rigid law on the whole of human experience would mean the ending of that which makes us human... that which makes us alive.
But, in the end, history has shown and will continue to show: the strongest will always overpower the weakest. Whether it be sexuality, religion, or the rise and fall of nations. In the end, your dogma wins.
 
Well thanks Jason,

First of all, the society in which you live has already tolerated the fact that homosexuals wish to live together. But that's not enough for the homosexual lobby. I've even provided documentary evidence that people, church ministers, have recently been jailed for preaching against homosexuality ! No comment was given on this alarming fact here. Now, you would imagine that homosexual activists would be happy with that. But no, they're now saying they also have rights to raise children within the context of their own 'gay marriage'. And it's this fact which I object strongly to.

Greatcyber says -

Scientists have now discovered a gene that is a predictor of sexual preference. It does not stem from anything that a parent did or did not do while raising their child. Nor is it a product of one's environment.

Greatcyber's claim sounds interesting but is completely false. He failed to provide a shred of evidence. There is in actual fact no 'sexual preference gene' and it's yet another myth found in junk mail publications. Let's see if Greatcyber can identify (or anyone else) which gene this is ? It's propaganda nonsense. The truth is very different - some babies are born predisposed to homosexuality. That's very true. But this abberation (because that is really what it is) is not due to there being any 'gene of sexual preference' - it's actually due to a crossing of genes, a 'mutation'. And in the science which deals with inheritance, genetics, all mutations are errors in the transmission of genetic information. Many are harmful (known in scientific literature as 'deleterious') and they are NOT inherited. In fact (according to real science) each and every mutational gene will eventually and naturally be reversed from within the gene pool of society - or else we as living creatures would simply be a bunch of inherited mutations from former ages. A genetic mutation is as said an error in the transmission of genetic information. Many illnesses are mutations. But these are inevitably reversed if and when they occur within a population. So say the facts of science, of biology, of genetics and of inheritance. Mutations disappear within the population within generations. The mechanism of this reversal of genetic mutations is entirely natural and is called 'reverse mutation'. Thus, the population is protected from harmful mutations. They are NOT inherited. They bring no permanent changes. And evolution theory contradicts the facts of science since mutations are NOT inherited.

You write -

But, in the end, history has shown and will continue to show: the strongest will always overpower the weakest. Whether it be sexuality, religion, or the rise and fall of nations. In the end, your dogma wins.

Sorry, but this too is wrong. The 'strongest' do not always overpower the weakest. The phrase 'the meek shall inherit the earth' clearly says the opposite. By 'meek' is meant those who conform to what is right, to what is good. It has nothing to do with softness or being a brute. The 'meek' shall inherit the earth. And life is choice.

Dogma does not win. Dogmatists were hated by Christ. The 'spirit of the law' is greater than the letter of the law. And this is where tolerance actually comes from. It's one of many products of having a society which is basically Christian in orientation. The woman should be stoned under the letter of the law for her adultery but she was forgiven because nobody is free of sin. You don't even have to be a Christian to benefit from such a superior truth as that brought by Christ. It provides the tolerance which allows you or me or anyone to be a homosexual, if you so choose. It's not right, but, as you say, this world is not perfect.

My strongest objection is that vulnerable children are raised within the context of a homosexual marriage since, in my view, this goes beyond personal preferences of mature, responsible adults and should not be confused with the best interests of children themselves. The limits of homosexual rights are plain for all to see. They exist between consenting adults and are NOT the basis for a legal recognition of homosexual 'marriage' or of raising children - children who, correctly, should be protected and even separated from the practices and the contexts of those who choose their homosexual rights.

Regards

Robert
 
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jawoodruff

New member
Just a quick search provided the following refutation to your dismissal of cybers' post:


Research confirms 'gay gene' discovery



From: The Independent (London, England) | Date: October 31, 1995| Author: Steve Connor Science Correspondent | Copyright 1995 The Independent - London. Provided by ProQuest LLC. (Hide copyright information) Copyright information
The scientist who two years ago controversially announced the discovery of the "gay gene" has found further evidence for its existence in homosexual men but not in lesbian women.
Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the US National Cancer Institute in Washington DC, said yesterday that his latest research confounds the critics who called his earlier work into question.
A proclivity for homosexuality which some men carry on the X chromosome they inherit from their mothers is confirmed by the latest work, published in Nature Genetics, Dr Hamer said

As for evolution itself, I think the scientific community is full agreement that it is fact - not theory. There have been substantial studies done which have gone in depth on this topic utilizing fruit flies, making studies of cultures around the globe, and many other animal species. Genetic mutations are extremely widespread - even among the human populations.
And do the meek really inherit the Earth? The idea sounds wonderful.. but in all honesty can you actually sit there and say that the meek inherit the earth? Your strong religious convictions are very admirable BUT from my standpoint they fall on *blind eyes*. I have a religious belief of my own.. its very personal to me... as is my relation to God. In no way would I ever use my religious ideology to force my ideas on anyone.
Since your religious views are strong... I have one question for you.
Give me one verse in the bible that show's the central figure of your religion speaking against homosexuality. Just one. I don't want the view of Paul or Peter or the views of the 8th Century B.C.E Jewish Rabbi's or those of Moses. Let's let the Son of God speak on the subject himself.
 
Hi there Jaywoodruff,

Well, let's have this supposed gene identified. If it exists we will be able to see exactly what we are talking about here. Do all humans have this gene ? These are the sorts of basic question that surely deserve answers.

You speak of 'evolution'. Can you define this term ? I mean, isn't it right that we define our terms if we insist they are factual ?

Let's keep it simple. Everybody agrees living things have the ability to change their forms, to morphologically adapt, to changing environments. That's 'adapation' and has been known for as long as species have been studied. It's an indisputable fact of nature known to every single person in the world. But the fact of adaption is not evolution, is it ? This idea of 'evolution' surely requires a definition. Please tell us what 'evolution' is. I don't believe it exists. I also believe the facts of many sciences contradict it including the laws of genetics, the findings of fossil researchers (palaeontologists), biologists, zoologists, botanists, just for a start. But you believe in it. Would you care to tell us, therefore, what 'evolution' is ?

I don't mean to be controversial but 'evolution' is really a fairy story for adults.

Thanks
 

jawoodruff

New member
*Yawn* Nice skirting of MY question posed to you. Evolution is a gradual change in species most evident in the inherited genetic traits passed on from one generation to the next. The traits vary within species populations with gradual heritable differences. The traits can arise from mutations or between transfer of genes between populations and species. In those species that reproduce naturally there is evidence of genetic recombination which have been shown to increase the variations in species.
As for 'the facts of many sciences contradict', I see none of the fields you've mentioned as containing objections to Evolutions. Fossil researchers have for the past 100 years been the largest group to show evidence of evolution. Biologists, Botanists, and Zoologists also have taken part in research validating the Evolutionary observation.

Thanks
 
You asked a question. You say you cannot find a single place in the New Testament against homosexuality.

Well, there are dozens. How about this one - ?

'As it was in the days of Sodom, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man'. (Jesus Christ Himself)
 
*Yawn* Nice skirting of MY question posed to you. Evolution is a gradual change in species most evident in the inherited genetic traits passed on from one generation to the next. The traits vary within species populations with gradual heritable differences. The traits can arise from mutations or between transfer of genes between populations and species. In those species that reproduce naturally there is evidence of genetic recombination which have been shown to increase the variations in species.
As for 'the facts of many sciences contradict', I see none of the fields you've mentioned as containing objections to Evolutions. Fossil researchers have for the past 100 years been the largest group to show evidence of evolution. Biologists, Botanists, and Zoologists also have taken part in research validating the Evolutionary observation.

Thanks

So, according to you, 'evolution' is an ongoing process. And this process is inherited. Right ? But I have already indicated that morphological changes (bodily changes) do occur in nature. We all know this. Non-evolutionists know this.

What is 'evolution' ?

You see, you're an evolutionist. Please tell us what is the difference between the adaption of living things (which nobody denies) and 'evolution'. If you can't tell us I will gladly tell you.

Thanks
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Robert - is your life so sad that, and are you so pathetic that you have to spit your venom here so brutally (regardless of whether your views are right or wrong)?

You are one of the primary reasons I rarely visit this forum anymore. It's the likes of you, posters with no humility whatsoever, that make this place hell.
 
Contratrombone64,

Is your life so sad that you post on threads without discussing the subject under examination ?

You and your attitude are one of the primary reasons why discussions are necessary. You are the equivalent on this issue of a man who talks much but says nothing. It's the likes of you with only insults and smears (but no facts at all) who want to keep everyone in ignorance. Why not allow this issue to be fairly and honestly discussed ? I've already said I respect the rights of people to be homosexuals (as I do) though I strongly disagree with them being allowed to be 'married' or to bring up children. That's crystal clear and I repeat it here. And I've even said why. My other posts on such issues as the 'New World Order' and against the myth of evolution are the very same. All of these things are well worthy of a respectful discussion.

Now, if you actually have something to contribute to this thread or any other please do it. But if your next post contains no contribution to these discussions I will ignore it (as will anyone else).

Thank You
 
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jawoodruff

New member
I see little relevance in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the debate in the debate on Gay Marriage. Theologians are relatively split on the reasoning for that particular story. The most wide spread belief is that the story dealt more with the values of the region in relation to hospitality then it does to being sexually deviant - mind you also, that in the story it was not just the men being driven by lust to 'know' the guests...but also the women. Next!

and FYI, species adaptation has a lot to do with evolution.
 
I see little relevance in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the debate in the debate on Gay Marriage. Theologians are relatively split on the reasoning for that particular story. The most wide spread belief is that the story dealt more with the values of the region in relation to hospitality then it does to being sexually deviant - mind you also, that in the story it was not just the men being driven by lust to 'know' the guests...but also the women. Next!

and FYI, species adaptation has a lot to do with evolution.

Theologians are always split on everything.

The city of Sodom gave its name to the homosexual practice of Sodomy. And that is plain, indisputable history. The word has been in English usage in that sense (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) since at least the mid 15th century. That's more than 500 years of plain history also.

I've opened a thread specially to deal with the theory of evolution. Since you say species adaption has 'a lot to do with evolution', then, logically, 'evolution' (so-called) has a lot to do with species adaption. But we are no further forward. Will you give us your definition of 'evolution' ? And when will we finally receive from you an evolutionary definition of 'species' ?


:)

Thanks
 
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