I hope you will forgive the intrusion, but Stephen (Greatcyber) told me about this thread and after reading it, I want to share some of my thoughts on the subject. The thread began as a sarcastic view of why gay marriage is anti-American. It quickly degraded into a moratorium on the role of the Bible, as the arbitrator of all that is good and holy, and then things got nasty. I am not here to debate religion, nor to dismiss or disrespect the views of others. However, based on some of your responses, you need to answer the following.
What exactly, did I do, as a man who happens to be gay, that is so wrong, that it justifies you restricting my rights as an American citizen, rights granted by the very founding documents of this country?
I cannot tell some of you, how disgusted I am by your views of humanity in general, and me, personally. Some of the responses could easily substitute the words, chattel or property, when discussing the basic rights that non-straights are entitled to, yet denied by a minor majority. There is a reason for the separation of church and state in America, because the rules for society, must be just and equal for all and separate but equal, denies the very foundations of this country.
What saddens me is that you choose to define gays as something abhorrent and sinful, yet you know nothing about me, but you condemn me unconditionally. Since you enjoy the benefits of true equality under the law, you see no problem, in denying gays the same benefits and you will never convince me, that your religion is a basis for fair and honest government. A true test of a society is their treatment of the least amongst them. A just society demands that all are equal, in affairs that govern the societal operation of that country. I do not seek extra or special rights, just the same rights that you enjoy: Nothing more and nothing less.
When you can tell me, why gays specifically should be denied equal rights, under American law, then we can talk. Until you remove religion from the discussion, you will never have a logical basis from which to govern. Nobody is asking for any religion to sanctify anything involving their religion, we are just seeking the same rights as everyone else in regards to civil law. How depressing to think, that gays ability to have equal rights, is more important than the true suffering that exists in the world. What a painful reminder of just how closed some peoples minds can be. What a frightening look into some of your souls, very frightening indeed.
I now return you, to your regular thread.
Hi there Killfoile,
I read your post here with much interest. Your post wasn't directed to anyone specifically but its contents were so interesting I felt they deserved a detailed reply. Please accept this as my own considered views. If they have merits it's because they are based on solid ground. At least, I hope you will agree.
Perhaps I can begin with your question -
What exactly, did I do, as a man who happens to be gay, that is so wrong, that it justifies you restricting my rights as an American citizen, rights granted by the very founding documents of this country?
In reply, the rights to which you are refering - are these the product of you being an American, or are they valid for all men in all countries ? Reading from what you have written it seems you view the rights in question as flowing from the US Constitution. But am I right ?
Your right to be a homosexual is not really in question as far as I myself am concerned. Honestly, I wish you were not homosexual. That is, I wish you were hetrosexual. But I speak as a Christian and as a person who recognises the rights of everyone. (I believe passionately in the liberty of conscience and am a great admirer of the US Constitution).
Perhaps you can share whether your homosexuality is of your own choice ? Since life itself is choice, is it not ? Do you agree there are countless men and women who abstain from sexuality. Both hetrosexuals and also homosexuals. Don't you agree ?
But let me come to the issue of rights themselves. The rights to which you are refering. These are your own, personal, individual rights, aren't they ? But from where does these come ? Do they come from the US Constitution, or from some other source ?
The reason I ask is rather simple. Let's take, for example, marriage. Do you believe all man and all women have a right to marry ? As a right ? But from where does such a right to marry come from ? Was it the US Constitution which made the right of my marriage or yours possible ? Did it (the US Constitution) give birth to the idea of marriage, the right of marriage ? Of course not. The US Constitution and governments all over the world recognised it officially (as it recognises so many other good things). But from where did that right and others come from before they were formally recognised ?
In short, the rights we recognise today under law, in writing, have to have come from somewhere. Only later were they were recognised, officially. So also with the right to be free from slavery, etc etc etc.
I would fight, tooth and nail, for you to have the right within society to be a homosexual though I personally believe homosexuality is wrong.
Correct me if I am wrong (I'm not an American). What is at issue here is state recognition of homosexual marriage and not so much homosexuality itself. It is not illegal anywhere in the USA to be a homosexual. But in some parts of the USA it is now illegal to enter in to a homosexual marriage. Isn't this the issue ? The one you feel now challenges your rights ?
Can I suggest (sincerely) the right to marriage does not come from the US Constitution. Or from anywhere else. It's really a divinely ordained institution. And therefore it can neither be established nor disestablished by anyone.
But I strongly disagree that banning homosexual marriage is removing your right to be a homosexual. It is legal recognition of the fact that same sex marriage is contrary to the institution of marriage itself, as a divinely created institution.
Amongst other things marriage symbolises (and was intended to symbolise) the relationship between God and man. As such, it was intended to be between a man and a woman.
Of course homosexuals deserve all rights and privileges of all citizens under the law. But origins of marriage are divine, simple and not at all complicated. A man cannot marry a man, nor a woman a woman, without making a mockery of marriage itself.
Such is my view. I strongly defend your right to choose your life and your style of life, though I can and do disagree with homosexuality (for reasons which I as a Christian have learned). My point of view is not shared by you. Fine. That's our freedom, to believe or not to believe. But I cannot agree that your rights are here or anywhere in this world being attacked, either in the USA or anywhere over homosexual marriage - an arrangement which (as said) is contrary to the very institution itself.
Yours respectfully
Robert
