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Piano and then Organ, Organ and no piano. Question

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Piano vs Organ

Welcome to MIMF, Wils ... great to have you aboard

In my own situation, I started with Piano (6 years of lessons) and then going to Organ (6 years of private study, plus 2 years college) but then I was only 6 years old when I began learning the piano ... in teen or adult life the situations would be quite different.

If one has limited funds and their goal is to learn the organ, then by all means go for the organ lessons ... One can always practice any organ piece on a piano on their own time. Actually, for me anyway, a good workout of the notes on the piano always makes the organ practice much easier. Case in point: I am working on the Mozart Fantasie in F minor (organ) ... not an easy task - but working out fingering and learning the notes on the piano seems to be helping.

And :rolleyes: while playing the piano, ones feet are not always idle ... ... ... there are the 3 pedals: Gas, Brake and Clutch :crazy:
 

acc

Member
I can't imagine a teacher wanting to teach organ from scratch because it's so much more complex an instrument to deal with, so a teacher would want a potential pupil to have basic keyboard experience as a prerequisite.

In view now of the complexity of the organ, it should be advisable to already have good keyboard skills before undertaking any organ learning. In this way, you can concentrate on what is organ-specific and mostly: (1) registration, (2) learning to swim between at least two keyboards and (3) develop the very high coordination skills required, so that playing with both hands and feet becomes reality.

I agree that good keyboard skills should be trained before tackling the complexities you both mention. But that still doesn't answer the question: you have to acquire those basic skills at some keyboard instrument, but why does it have to be the piano, and why can it not be the organ itself right away?

(I don't see the problem with a sensible organ teacher taking things step by step, telling a beginner "just play on the first manual for now", and "just draw the stops I tell you, we'll come back to that later". Same for the pedals.)
 

pb05

New member
I agree that good keyboard skills should be trained before tackling the complexities you both mention. But that still doesn't answer the question: you have to acquire those basic skills at some keyboard instrument, but why does it have to be the piano, and why can it not be the organ itself right away?
Perhaps you noticed it, but in my answer i tried to use interchangeably the terms keyboard and piano. But which music school will learn you just "keyboard"? The piano is today, and in the past century, the universal image of what one means when he says "keyboard". It is a "normal" mechanical and so widely known instrument, a ubiquitous figure, probably synonymous to the "keyboard". I think this is the reason you will hear "one has to first learn piano and then organ". I don't see anything inherent to the piano techniques that would be organ related, other than it is just a keyboard. The way I understand it is something like a code to transmit the idea that ideally one needs keyboard skills before approaching the organ techniques. Then yes, one can have as a keyboard the one of the organ, I can take that. But if the said organ is a big one, then it is like riding a tank to shoot a mosquito. :grin: Some people don't care, others probably they do.
 
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acc

Member
Put like that, I agree: the piano out of ubiquity, rather than necessity.

As for your last point, a big organ is indeed not a good idea for a beginner, especially if its action is not mechanical (the latter type being essential to foster good habits of touch).
 

nachoba

New member
Wils,
Good you found some answers here. I don't have that work you mention, however I played several "variae pieces" from Tournemire. They were, I think, written for the harmonium, however like Franck's "l'Organiste" if played at the organ with proper registration they sound really nice and much better than at the harmonium.
Going back the the discussion of this thread, I guess that may be we are at a turning point in organ teaching. I guess that in the past (and with past I mean since the piano appeared) piano skills were "the" way to go. Prior was the harpsichord, etc.
Aristide, I've read the article on Bach's clavichord technique, it's quiet interesting. I have a question that sometimes puzzles me, at the clavichord one it's able to perform dynamics, isn't it? Then, why Bach and other composers stated whether it has to be played piano or forte, etc?
regards
 

Thomas Dressler

New member
WOW, now here's an interesting thread!

This subject seems to really get organists going, and opinions tend to be strong on this. I'll chime in with my own opinions and experience on this issue.

My own opinion is that piano is not at all necessary, and can be counterproductive if the student really wants to play the organ and not the piano. Why do I say this? Because that's exactly how I was. Over the years, I got to really like the piano, but I never took a piano lesson until I was in college. I started on the organ in a "preparatory" program at Susquehanna University for local music students (not university students) when I was 13. The teachers were themselves university music students, and my teacher had no idea what to do with this rebellious upstart. She asked her professor, James Boeringer, for advice and he told her to just teach me technique at the organ. I even played some of Bartok's Mikrokosmos on the organ! But the point is that it worked fine for me, and if I had been forced to play the piano at that time I don't know what I would have done.

I do feel that for technical reasons, the piano can be counterproductive to sensitive organ technique if one is not clearly taught the difference between the two. The major difference is that organ keys have the "pluck" near the top of the keystroke and the piano requires that one "strike" the keybed. To pull through a pluck and to strike a keybed are two completely different things. However, I have seen many, many "organists" play insensitively because they are striking the bottom of the keystroke. Especially if playing a tracker, one needs to sensitively PULL or PUSH through the pluck; and then there is another important factor that can be largely ignored in piano playing--one needs to CLOSE the pallets sensitively, too, which means controlling the speed of the keys' returns as well. It is a completely different technique. In my opinion there is much insensitive organ playing because of too much piano technique at the organ. Even on an electric or pneumatic action, the playing will be much more clean if one is aware of the point of contact and not striking the keybeds.

For this reason, Giovanni's mention of the harpsichord is a valid one, to be sure. Nowadays I practice a lot on the harpsichord because it also has a pluck near the top of the keystroke, much more similar to the organ than the piano. The clavichord also has distinct advantages. Anyone who has played a well regulated one will immediately note the shallow touch. Interestingly, the shallow keystroke is just about the same as the distance to the pluck on an organ or harpsichord. So while one does need to "bed" the keys on a clavichord, this still involves a very shallow touch. One develops a very sensitive awareness of this area where the pluck occurs on organs and harpsichords.

In my opinion, these major differences make careful instruction necessary when moving from the piano to the organ, and it is often done unsuccessfully because the teacher him/herself is not aware or does not clearly articulate the differences. James Boeringer stressed the importance of learning to play tracker instruments and I still remember him stating in his colorful way that piano technique does not work at the organ. He said you could either press the key carefully or hit it with a sledgehammer, makes no difference in the volume! And how many times have I seen "organists" beating the keys when carefully planned use of body weight would work much better, even on the heaviest tracker action!

I will not say piano lessons are bad, just that careful and thoughtful instruction and practice are necessary when making the switch. Non tracker actions are more forgiving, but then one never learns real organ technique, either.

Thomas Dressler
 

AllanP

New member
I recently started organ lessons again after a lapse of several years. My technique of striking the keys led to an uneven attack for the notes. She assigned a piece using percussion to enable my ear to hear the uneven attack. Possibly playing the piano gives the same effect of making clear uneven notes. Tracker action is similar to the piano in that the mechanical nature of the touch gives tactile feedback to create a more even attack. A stop with a lot of chiff may help the ear to hear the uneven attack.

From my own experience, once my ear became able to hear the correct attack of the notes, the use of the percussion to help hear the effect was no longer necessary.
 

Wils

New member
My own opinion is that piano is not at all necessary, and can be counterproductive if the student really wants to play the organ and not the piano.

Thanks, Thomas, for your informative post. Since posting on this thread in September I've been trying to make up my mind whether to carry on with piano lessons and teach myself organ, or commence organ lessons and carry on with piano in my own time. After reading this, I can say I've almost reached a decision! I prefer the organ, but having started learning the piano in my fifties(!), I'm reluctant to let the skill lapse. (I can't afford lessons on both instruments.) Also, the organ feels the more natural instrument for me, as co-ordination is not one of my problems, but expression at the piano is! (So many factors, so little time...hopefully all will be resolved in the new year!)

Thanks once again,
Wils
 

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Piano -> Organ...Organ -> Piano...

I concur with Thomas wholeheartedly and I confess that harpsichord and clavichord are relative late-comers to me. I was and still am mad about the Organ - playing, construction, tonal architecture, scaling, voicing..you name it, I'm on it!

If a student has a *burning* desire to learn the Organ - the kind of desire that I had - by all means, dive in head first. I was the happiest man on earth as a kid seated at the console of the West Point Military Academy Organ and played Toccata & Fugue in d-minor BWV 565.

Cheers!

Giovanni :tiphat:
 
Very interesting topic indeed!!!. I have a question to that! If the piano is not necessary for the organ studies, are there any other possible methods or tutorials for a young musician to start playing the organ, but providing the complete technique of the instrument? I really am curious to be informed! Thank everyone who will answer.
 

Thomas Dressler

New member
Well, I've never been particularly fond of method books, prefering to just work on music, but there are a couple books that are generally pretty good. The Harold Gleason Method of Organ Playing is generally accepted as one of the best, though I believe these days it's pretty expensive. Another one that I own that looks very good is Organ Technique: Modern and Early by George Ritchie and George Stauffer. There are also some books I've heard people talk about by Wayne Leupold, but I have never seen them myself so I cannot say how good they are.

For manual technique, I would even play the Bach Inventions at the organ. And for a beginner, there's no reason one could not play easy piano or harpsichord pieces on the organ. When I was learning, my teacher actually made me play the Bartok piano method, Mikrokosmos, on the organ. I didn't especially like it, but I did it and it was helpful.

Tom Dressler
 

music lover

New member
hi my friend had organ lessons for two years. She never had any piano lessons. She just wanted to learn for fun so she was not bothered about having piano grounding. She can play the organ ok but not briliantly.
 

criptlyon

New member
Hello!

For european people (because of shipping), I would recommend the method I use: "Méthode pour grand orgue" from Martine Betremieux.
It's done for keyboard beginners and doesn't ask to know how to play piano before learning organ.

http://www.betremieux.org/
You will find on this website pdf samples and mp3 of this book.
 

jvhldb

New member
When I started my organ studies the music academy gave me a piano teacher for the first 4 months to teach me to read my left hand.

After playing the organ for about a year we had a power failure before a church service last month, I found to my horror that I can't play piano at all anymore (fortuanetly there was an old schol mam in the congregatin that could take over on the piano). My guess is that I'm to used to playing electronic consoles and organs so I don't hit the piano keys hard enough.

My organ teacher thinks it's a waste of time to teach the organ if the pupil still has to learn dynamics and reading music in general (or if they can't reach the pedals).
 

wljmrbill

Member
I too had piano before organ study as in those days -50's,60's was the trend and still is by many instructors. I stated piano at 5 yrs old anyway.. If there is an advantage I feel it in the ability to read music easier when playing organ as I feel organ gets harder quicker than piano reperatore. I have taught students with piano background as well as some without and find they both do fine.Perhaps touch is the biggest difference now that we have more electronic action then tracker action instruments.I am sure will be a long debate through times...LOL
 

jensaks

New member
My organ teacher thinks it's a waste of time to teach the organ if the pupil still has to learn dynamics and reading music in general (or if they can't reach the pedals).[/QUOTE]


This is a good discussion!

I got it into my head that I wanted to learn to play the organ from the time I was very, very young. The sheer beauty overwhelmed me even as a 4 or 5 year old, and I didn't have any interest in playing the piano. When I was seven my parents bought an organ (a small spinet) for our home and I started taking lessons. I had no earlier keyboard training, so I was starting from scratch. Our pastor's son, who was a senior in high school and already an accomplished organist, taught me for my first year until he headed off to college. I continued to take lessons until I graduated from high school, and loved every minute of it.

I don't think there's any good reason for a child to have to take piano first if he or she really wants to play the organ. My teacher taught me to read music, taught me about fingering, basic technique, practice scales, etc. and didn't teach me anything about the pedals or registration until I had mastered reading music and could play some simple pieces. Then he wrote in a simple pedal line on those beginner pieces, and eventually added instruction about registration. It all came together naturally, and it was fun for me.

I've had this particular discussion over the years with many people. My first teacher always told me pianists did not make the best organists because of the difference in touch. Invariably, pianists do not agree with me when I have said that, but most organists do. Of course, it's not something that can't be learned...but it doesn't come naturally, just as a lifelong organist doesn't sit down at a piano and play the keys accurately. I know I couldn't. Yes, the notes are the same, but it's a whole other thing when it comes to actually playing the keys.

I've recently started to get back to work on practicing after quite a few years of raising kids, general busy-ness, etc. I am dismayed at how much work I need! Also, my organ needs some major work and that's not in the budget right now. But I'll get there...
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Welcome aboard jensaks to a superwonderful site with superfab members all. A really good organ teacher will be able to work around the issues of pupils not being able to reach the pedals or not understanding dynamics or reading music.
 

wljmrbill

Member
Just another thought that I have.. I play piano and organ both all the time...so I can adjust my touch etc.. sometimes I think is more a mental approach telling the forearms what to do for each situation. I know for organ a light legato style touch and for piano a lever type approach... works for me.. and that is the big rule.. if it works for you use it ..it is he sound that matters.
 
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