Piano and then Organ, Organ and no piano. Question

[nachoba]

Hi there,

This is my first post to this forum. I've been reading it for a long and it's full of interesting posts and comments. However I didn't find a thread that covers one question I have, so here it goes:

I'm currently learning organ and piano. However, I must be honest and say that I'm learning piano because it's suppoused to help organ playing. I mean, all organ books and methods (and even the local conservatories) demand very good piano skills before reaching to the organ and carefully state that "organ not before a well grounded piano technique"

I'm nor really a piano lover, I really like the organ. I find sometimes that boths techniques are not only completely different but contradictory; so I don't understand why should I have to learn a technique that at the end of the day won't be used at the organ!!

What's your opinion, I think it's a really interesting debate to have (sorry if it has been already discussed and point me to that threat that I wasn't able to find).

Should I focus on organ and leave piano? Or is it really the right way to go to learn piano and organ.

Cheers
nacho

 

[giovannimusica]

Hi nacho,

I learned the organ before the piano - Thomas Murray, professor of organ at Yale University learnt the organ before the piano. In short, it can be done but it would be good to have some piano experience before. There is a movement that one should learn the harpsichord before learning the organ. Maybe the forum regulator Thomas Dressler can chime in as to why. I honestly don't know why that should be the case.

Cheers,

Giovanni :tiphat:

 

[Krummhorn]

Hi nacho,

Welcome to MIMF ... I hope your stay with this forum is always enjoyable.

I did piano first before organ ... 6 years worth before my piano teacher would even permit me to consider organ studies. I took private organ lessons for another 6 years and 2 more years in college. I am glad it all turned out that way as I equally love playing the piano as much as the organ.

Basically, one could go either way ... organ first or vice versa ... however, I have known a few organists who don't now how to play the piano. I still do lots of technical work on the piano for the more difficult organ pieces I am learning. After a good workout on the piano, the organ playing seems much easier, so at least for me, it works out okay.

It will be interesting to learn more about the trend that Giovanni mentions about learning harpsichord before organ. Possibly it has something to do with the touch or 'pluck' of the harpsichord string vs the tracker touch of some pipe organs. Looking forward to what Thomas Dressler has to say on this subject.

 

[acc]

Like Giovanni, I've always been puzzled about this. I mean: why should the organ be the only instrument requiring prior practise of another instrument?


(If it's just a matter of having a piano/harpsichord more readily available at home, OK, but: why per se?)

 

[Aristide]

During the last few decades, modern organ paedagogy is moving away from the old piano paradigm as a path towards organ study, and rightfully so.
Apart from the look of the keyboard, piano and organ are quite different instruments which require a different technique and approach in most aspects. Very often, in the earlier phase of organ study for someone coming from the piano, adaptations and 'unlearning' need to be applied when piano technique is wrongfully brought into organ playing.
Often, piano knowledge is not a disadvantage when starting to play the organ, but not a prerequisite either. For students who study both, it's important to distinguish the appropriate techniques and approaches as they are studying either one or the other, obviously.

On the subject of the harpsichord or clavichord as a preparation towards organ playing, there is an extensive explanation by Griepenkerl. The preparation in this way is not valid for much organ music beyond the baroque era. However, take a look at the text published by Miklos Spanyi. You can temporarily download the text here : http://www.organum.be/download/music/griepenkerl.pdf
That should shed some light on the topic.

 

[Krummhorn]

Very interesting article, Aristide ... thank you for sharing this with the rest of us. The article indeed will renew and refresh my organ technique - never too late in life to learn something new.

 

[nachoba]

Thanks for the article Aristide I will read this, it seems very interesting. I posted this question because something started to make noise in my head regarding piano & organ techniques.
Position of hands, curvature of fingers, the touch, even playing simple passages as scales seems to be different.
I have a copy of the Gleason organ method and he stress that nobody should attempt playing the organ unless it's able to play several preludes & fugues from the Well Tempered Klavier.
Thanks all for your interesting comments.
regards

 

[_music_4_ever_]

And my problem is that I don't have enough time to study on piano! lool

I think you should keep studying on piano. That's a good instrument to develop the technique because it's a mechanic system so that's a kind of gymnastic for both hands and fingers.

I prefer the organ, too! And I like to play the piano sometimes.

 

[ParryHotter]

I'll post my 2 cents, very humbly of course:

I am a piano guy first, then organ second. I have played piano for over 15 years at this point, and have only been learning organ since about March/April. I've found piano technique to be VERY VERY VERY helpful in learning the organ. My first year in college, one of the first things I learned playing piano was correct legato playing and how to use finger substitution. I've found this to be of great help learning the organ. I have also become a pretty good sightreader on the piano, which again helps learning the organ since I no longer have any need to look at the keyboard/manuals. Both of these things are useful for me, and together make learning pieces on the organ much easier because for the most part I only need to focus on learning the pedaling (that is a totally different beast for me though ).

So in conclusion, is piano technique necessary? I'd say no, but it has certainly helped me immensely (sp?).

 

[giovannimusica]

Thank you Aristide for your enlightening contribution to this very important subject. I'm gonna go out on a limb now and share that it is not a dogmatic requirement that one masters the piano or other keyboard instrument before learning the organ.

But I would ask, why should one cut oneself off from so much beautiful music that has been composed for the piano? I will gladly admit that the *tonal painting* that Rachmaninoff has committed to paper has been a definite inspiration in the development of how I utilise the organ. Yes, Bach and Tournemire are the foundation of my concept of organ playing and will always be near and very dear to my heart. For someone else it might be Mozart and Brahms or Chopin and Debussy or someother constellation. Again, I feel that dogmatic insistence on a certain *school* of playing might hamper one's development.


Cheers,

Giovanni :tiphat:

 

[Krummhorn]

I thought that I had read at some point that in the day of Bach and continuing through the Robert Schumann era that there was a Pedal Piano

Seems that the article claimed that these great organists might have practiced at home since playing the organ required assistants to pump the bellows for the organs?

The Schumann Etudes (now for organ) were possibly written for this pedal piano too?

 

[giovannimusica]

The Schumann Etudes, I believe, are written for the Pedal Piano.

Here's a link about the Pedal Piano:

B O R G A T O ~ P I A N O S


Cheers,

Giovanni :tiphat:


ps. click on *Doppio Borgato*

 

[nachoba]

As far as I know, Schumann works for organ were also written for the pedal piano. I recall reading somewhere that one of Bach's beloved instruments was a two manual & pedalboard clavichord (yes pedal clavichord!).
Also, I have a copy of Francisco Correa de Arauxo "Facultad Organica" (1628) in which he stress that the instrument to practice "at home" it's the "manicordio" which is also the clavichord.
So combining the comments in the forum, could be something like this.
For baroque-era works a "clavichord" technique would certainly be better, work romantics and on, more "piano" techinque.
Giovanni great that you like Tournemire, I find his Orgue Mystique really mystic and inspiring.
So I guess that the conclusion is, stick to the piano! haha.
thanks all
regards

 

[giovannimusica]

Tournemire has written a number of piano works which I'll commit to memory once I have finished *ingesting* all of his organ works.

Cheers,

Giovanni :tiphat:

 

[acc]

[...] My first year in college, one of the first things I learned playing piano was correct legato playing and how to use finger substitution. I've found this to be of great help learning the organ. I have also become a pretty good sightreader on the piano, which again helps learning the organ since I no longer have any need to look at the keyboard/manuals.[...]

So in conclusion, is piano technique necessary? I'd say no, but it has certainly helped me immensely (sp?).

Hi Parry,

Obviously, when someone who wants to start playing the organ already happens to play the piano, the things you mention don't have to be learned again from scratch and can be reused (more or less) "as is" at the organ .

But the real question is: what if someone starts the organ without prior exposure to the piano? Can't he then just as well learn the things you mention at the organ straight away? Or would you still consider it helpful for him to spend part of his time at the piano?

 

[nachoba]

Acc, that's exactly my question.
cheers

 

[Wils]

Hi nachoba

Your post prompted me to register! I've been learning piano for five years and have recently begun organ lessons. Now I'm in a quandary as to whether to continue with piano lessons or concentrate purely on the organ. (Time & money are both factors to be considered, unfortunately.) My feeling is that if I stop piano, my keyboard skills will deteriorate rather rapidly. Even now, although I've reached an intermediate grade on piano I find it a challenge to play elementary grade organ pieces.

As to the question posed by acc, I can't imagine an organist wishing to take on a pupil without any prior keyboard experience, irrespective of whether reasonable progress can be made without it.

(By the way nachoba, I have the Orgue Mystique cycles too & am a Tournemire 'nut'!! Have you played his 'Petites Fleurs Musicales'?)

 

[acc]

As to the question posed by acc, I can't imagine an organist wishing to take on a pupil without any prior keyboard experience, irrespective of whether reasonable progress can be made without it.

Hi Wils,

Welcome to Magle's!

So if I understand you correctly, you can't imagine somebody starting the organ without prior keyboard experience, but you can imagine somebody starting the piano without prior keyboard experience. Why the difference?

 

[Wils]

Hi acc - thanks for the welcome!

I can't imagine a teacher wanting to teach organ from scratch because it's so much more complex an instrument to deal with, so a teacher would want a potential pupil to have basic keyboard experience as a prerequisite. It's been my experience when making enquiries that the requirement to have around intermediate grade piano is still alive & kicking!! I'm not saying that an organ is more difficult to master than a piano, just that the co-ordination & registration are complex and could be overwhelming for a keyboard novice. (Are there any teachers who are that patient? If so, I haven't met them....)

 

[pb05]

Like Giovanni, I've always been puzzled about this. I mean: why should the organ be the only instrument requiring prior practise of another instrument?

OK, I have not yet read the article that Aristide posted, but here is what I think.

Even a small two-keyboard organ, is at least one order of magnitude more complex than a piano. On the other hand, there is a non-void intersection between the two: the keyboard. So either way, you have to learn how to move your fingers with precision on a keyboard. Of course this is a generic view of the issue at hand, since each instrument comes with its own techniques etc., as we know very well.

In view now of the complexity of the organ, it should be advisable to already have good keyboard skills before undertaking any organ learning. In this way, you can concentrate on what is organ-specific and mostly: (1) registration, (2) learning to swim between at least two keyboards and (3) develop the very high coordination skills required, so that playing with both hands and feet becomes reality.

Now imagine all the previous, and probably more that the experienced members of this forum may bring forward, combined with a total lack of experience on keyboards and you get the picture. Playing a piece on a keyboard should not be much of a problem when one starts learning the organ for the above reasons. It happened to me to lose completely the control on a simple piece that I knew very well because my professor asked me to just play it with a different registration (a powerful, for my ears, plein jeu actually). I had finally to repeat again alone and be ready for the next lesson. Furthermore, knowing in advance to play keyboards, piano or whatever, will be very helpful in learning solo pedals. And that's how learning the pedals starts, solo.

So, knowing the piano before starting the organ looks to me as the IDEAL situation. Anything different from this should not be excluded, in principle. As for the harpsichord case, yes I feel it is better to learn that instead of the piano since the touch is something between the organ and the piano, so something more close to organ techniques. Again, this should be considered as the IDEAL case.