Tchaikovsky's heterosexuality

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Sybarite

New member
Hi Ouled Nails,

That was an interesting outlay you shared but I hardly consider it to be a scientific fact...

I didn't think that Ouled Nails was attempting to say that it was. He/she simply posted a review of a book that contains far more details about the subject, including the matter of the composer's sexuality.

As I mentioned earlier:

... Since she suggests that Alexander Poznansky's Tchaikovsky: The Quest for the Inner Man is a work of "serious scholarship", perhaps you might like to check that out if you're interested...

A consistent factor that rarely comes up in these discussions, but which would explain some things, is that Tchaikovsky was actually bisexual. However, there is – in both heterosexual and homosexual camps – a refusal on occasions to consider anything that sits outside the popular, but simplistic and two-dimensional general approach to sexuality.

And with all due respects, Giovanni, posting a link to an organisiation with a homophobic agenda that is miles removed from mainstream medical and scientific knowledge on the subject does nothing to add to the debate, but merely suggests – and forgive me if I'm wrong here – that the issue for you and some others, is that you do not personally like the idea of 'different' sexualities and, therefore, do not wish to consider them in terms of figures that you admire.
 
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giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Hi Sybarite,

I'm glad that we can and do differ since that makes for good debate, which sometimes reveals preconceived hostilities of different groups. At least we have exposed some hostility on this forum. With all due respect, Sybarite, it seems that you wish to foreclose any debate and having preconceived notions about my motives. I have consistently maintained a respectful and non-judgemental position. At no time have I hurled insults, invectives, tirades or pre-judged anyone or any group, nor do I say that you are doing the same. May I most respectfully suggest that you should add to the debate, not by speaking about organizations that have a differing agenda, but by debating the independent research of a qualified physician who has knowledge and has submitted his findings to an independent scientific journal. It is the research that is the most interesting and that it is in a scientific journal, not a daily or weekly entertainment *rag*.

We are a civilization that has many wonderful tools at our disposal and science is one of them. It is used to prove/disprove preconceived notions that researchers and the common man has. Just as in another thread where I took up the cause of a well-respected scholar who was not in the *mainstream*, who went against the prevailing orthodoxy/orthopraxy of the environmental lobby, who is himself an environmentalist(Bjorn Lomborg). So too do I debate the issue about Tchaikovsky's *alternateness*, especially since we do not know all the details of Tchaikovsky's life and obviously none of us on this forum lived in Russia during Tchaikovsky's life.

I do therefore take exception to the prevailing orthodoxy/orthopraxy of the *mainstream* to stake a claim about a composers lifestyle. All what I ask is that we keep an open and inquiring mind to the situation. I heartily and respectfully enjoin you to do the same.

Humbly yours,

Giovanni
 

Sybarite

New member
Hi Sybarite,

I'm glad that we can and do differ since that makes for good debate, which sometimes reveals preconceived hostilities of different groups. At least we have exposed some hostility on this forum. With all due respect, Sybarite, it seems that you wish to foreclose any debate and having preconceived notions about my motives. I have consistently maintained a respectful and non-judgemental position. At no time have I hurled insults, invectives, tirades or pre-judged anyone or any group, nor do I say that you are doing the same. May I most respectfully suggest that you should add to the debate, not by speaking about organizations that have a differing agenda, but by debating the independent research of a qualified physician who has knowledge and has submitted his findings to an independent scientific journal. It is the research that is the most interesting and that it is in a scientific journal, not a daily or weekly entertainment *rag*.

We are a civilization that has many wonderful tools at our disposal and science is one of them. It is used to prove/disprove preconceived notions that researchers and the common man has. Just as in another thread where I took up the cause of a well-respected scholar who was not in the *mainstream*, who went against the prevailing orthodoxy/orthopraxy of the environmental lobby, who is himself an environmentalist(Bjorn Lomborg). So too do I debate the issue about Tchaikovsky's *alternateness*, especially since we do not know all the details of Tchaikovsky's life and obviously none of us on this forum lived in Russia during Tchaikovsky's life.

I do therefore take exception to the prevailing orthodoxy/orthopraxy of the *mainstream* to stake a claim about a composers lifestyle. All what I ask is that we keep an open and inquiring mind to the situation. I heartily and respectfully enjoin you to do the same.

Humbly yours,

Giovanni

As far as I am aware, nobody – myself included – has suggested that the issue of Tchaikovsky's sexuality has been proven or otherwise by anything on this thread or elsewhere.

However, you – and you alone – have chosen to introduce an element into this thread about the nature of sexuality, suggesting, by the site that you linked to, that it is a choice and that people can be 'cured' of it.

The article that you linked to is not presented in a scientific manner and is reactionary. It raises issues that are utterly irrelevant to the major question*. To do so is entirely consistent with a particular conservative, religious agenda. And it an agenda that is homophobic.

Why did you choose to introduce this? It has absolutely no use in terms of this issue – is has nothing whatsoever to say about Tchaikovsky's sexuality.

So why did you introduce it?

As I said before, forgive if I'm wrong, but the only conclusion that I personally can come to is that you do not like 'alternate' sexualities and do not wish to countenance the idea that Tchaikovsky may have been gay for that reason.

Otherwise, why would you be concerned?

Again, why did you need to raise, in this context – a thread about Tchaikovsky – a link to a homophobic website with a particular agenda about 'curing' homosexuals and bisexuals? What does it have to say about Tchaikovsky?


* The piece raises politics and describes someone as being "anti-war, pro-abortion" – as if that has any relevance other than to people reading who will nod and go: 'clearly a dodgy person if they have those views'. Indeed, to use "pro-abortion" as opposed to 'pro-choice' is the kind of emotional language that people with a certain agenda use. And it is inaccurate.
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
Hi guys,

sorry I'm meddling one more time in your scientific debates - the topic of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality seems to be that popular here!

First, as already mentioned, the matter of Tchaikovsky was gay or not is hardly possible to prove. But I doubt whether it is that necessary. For me it was always smth. like "you know and I know". That is, as Tchaikovsky was officially regarded as the Russian composer # 1 during the Soviet era, any discussion about his sexuality in the official press ( and there was no unofficial :cry: ) was just impossible to imagine. Behind the closed doors, however, there was no question about it. I don't think there can be any rumours without a reason for them.

And yes, I believe you can hear it in his music.
 

janny108

New member
How can you hear it in his music? I love his music,it's so melodic.

Also, wasn't he more bisexual? I heard his brother Modest was gay also?
Jan
 

rojo

(Ret)
Andrew, did I get that right? Are you saying you hear a composer`s sexual orientation in his works? I sure don`t. What exactly do you hear that I don`t? And can you describe it to me?
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
How can you hear it in his music? I love his music,it's so melodic.

Also, wasn't he more bisexual? I heard his brother Modest was gay also?
Jan

Andrew, did I get that right? Are you saying you hear a composer`s sexual orientation in his works? I sure don`t. What exactly do you hear that I don`t? And can you describe it to me

Hi Jan and Rojo,

thanks at least for not eating me alive for that!!:p

Jan - I didn't actually say Tchaikovsky was not melodic. He became namely famous because of his fine and - yes - beautiful melodic lines - which fact still doesn't change the whole matter. I can name you two more absolutely outstanding artists having produced a huge number of great melodies , I admire both of them - these are Elton John and Freddie Mercury. Then, I truly believe one can admire Tchaikovsky as well, since he was definetely one of the greatest Russian composers. The fact that I don't like the most of his music is a matter of taste - say, I don't like the chord progressions he would generally make use of, I find the repeats a little bit too often and therefore boring etc. Maybe it is a kind of allergy inherited from the Soviet times, as you could hear his music ,literally, at every corner.
I hope you don't hate me that much anymore;) ...

Rojo - as I really believe, that every composer expresses his personality in his works - in every single piece composed by him - then his sexuality may also have its influence on that process. Well, sexuality forms personality anyway, doesn't it? You may find the traces of the various significantly less important circumstances of life in the different works of the different composers - happy marriage, unhappy private life, illness, wealth or poverty etc.
A little bit more to your question - I have visited your site, have read a number of your posts since I joined MMIF - I can not actually suppose that you are unable to hear anything that I am. I guess maybe you much likely don't see the connection here or have never thought about it. I am not saying that I ( or anybody else ) can certainly hear the sexual orientation of any composer in his works - I only have meant the music of Tchaikovsky might be ( on my opinion !!! ) a case from a textbook in this aspect. Which doesn't make this music worse anyway, of course.
Was it the answer to your question or should I have been more concrete about it ?

Best regards from Germany - I am really enjoying my time with MMIF:) !!
Andrew
 

rojo

(Ret)
Hi Andrew,

Well, it would be fun to play excerpts by various composers for you and get you to guess their sexual orientation. And then we could examine your results to see if you have some kind of uncanny talent or something here. (Just kidding around. :grin:)

I get your point about what makes up a composer`s personality affecting his works. But can you tell me what it is in the music itself that tells you the man is gay?

It`s funny though, on a related note, Sybarite brought to my attention an interesting article (here- http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/3361-picking-up-baton.html ) where music was referred to in gender terms. I guess you`re right; it just doesn`t occur to me to think of music in those terms. So thinking that way is new to me. Although so far, I find it rather useless, because it changes nothing for me in the way I appreciate works.

Btw, we would never eat you alive; we prefer to flame-broil you first instead. :grin: Thanks for visiting my site, and glad you enjoy your time here; as you may have noticed, I can`t seem to get enough of it. :p
 

Sybarite

New member
There have been times when I have wondered whether George Gershwin's music suggests a certain poignancy in terms of unfulfilled relationships and that that could infer something of his sexuality, but then one would have to ask if the same could be found in Cole Porter's music and I've never heard that. Do I listen to Stephen Sondheim and think: 'oh, how gay this is'? No I don't; it's never occurred to me to think of Sondheim's music in terms of a form of sexuality.

Just a brief thought on 'hearing' something of the composer's personality in music: can anyone hear Wagner's anti-semitism in The Ring?
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
Hi Sybarite & Rojo,

There have been times when I have wondered whether George Gershwin's music suggests a certain poignancy in terms of unfulfilled relationships and that that could infer something of his sexuality, but then one would have to ask if the same could be found in Cole Porter's music and I've never heard that. Do I listen to Stephen Sondheim and think: 'oh, how gay this is'? No I don't; it's never occurred to me to think of Sondheim's music in terms of a form of sexuality.

Just a brief thought on 'hearing' something of the composer's personality in music: can anyone hear Wagner's anti-semitism in The Ring?

Cole Porter - actually I must admit I know him only as an author of the numerous jazz-standarts ( Night & Day, I've Got a Kick Out Of You... ), although I am aware these were actually the themes from the musicals he composed - the way many would play Macky Knife of Kurt Weill without having any idea about Die Dreigroschenopera from which the tune actually is.
So to your question - these are just the good old jazz-standarts for me - as well as many others.

Wagner - rather interesting, never heard he was antisemitic. I always thought he was a favourite composer of Hitler because his music just fitted the Hitler's "image" of how the Third Reich should look like - that momumentalistic and preussisch ( Prussian ) .If you have ever been in Berlin and have stood near the Reichstag building ( and not only seen it on a picture ), then you surely know what I mean. Well, the fact that Wagner was antisemitic makes the whole subject even more clear.
I have no idea how should the "antisemitic" music sound like - if anybody can explain it to me , maybe I will be able to hear it too...:rolleyes:

Well, it would be fun to play excerpts by various composers for you and get you to guess their sexual orientation. And then we could examine your results to see if you have some kind of uncanny talent or something here. (Just kidding around. :grin:)

Hey, I don't think I have any uncanny talents!!!:cry: And you can not judge about the whole heritage of the composer Xxxxx basing on only one specific work of him - so your funny method will not work:grin: ;) . Ok, I guess I must just be more specific on this subject - which means actually I need to take a little bit time for it , to describe it in more or less acceptable musical and theoretical terms how do I understand the music of Tchaikovsky in terms of this thread. Then there will be smth. to discuss at least.
I promise to do this , if it is still interesting for you, but sorry not earlier as in about 2 days, as this weekend is a bit crazy by me. You don't even need to answer this post till then -

many greetings and good luck
Andrew
 

Sybarite

New member
... Cole Porter - actually I must admit I know him only as an author of the numerous jazz-standarts ( Night & Day, I've Got a Kick Out Of You... ), although I am aware these were actually the themes from the musicals he composed - the way many would play Macky Knife of Kurt Weill without having any idea about Die Dreigroschenopera from which the tune actually is.
So to your question - these are just the good old jazz-standarts for me - as well as many others...

Hi Andrew, the point that I was trying to raise was whether, if one can hear something such as sexuality in the music of one composer, then perhaps one can hear it in the music of another composer. Surely it wouldn't make any difference whether any of the composers in question were composers of classical music or easy listening, pop, jazz or rock?

... Wagner - rather interesting, never heard he was antisemitic. I always thought he was a favourite composer of Hitler because his music just fitted the Hitler's "image" of how the Third Reich should look like - that momumentalistic and preussisch ( Prussian ) .If you have ever been in Berlin and have stood near the Reichstag building ( and not only seen it on a picture ), then you surely know what I mean. Well, the fact that Wagner was antisemitic makes the whole subject even more clear.
I have no idea how should the "antisemitic" music sound like - if anybody can explain it to me , maybe I will be able to hear it too...:rolleyes:

I wasn't suggesting that one could hear anti-semitism in Wagner's music – merely trying to raise the issue of whether, if one can hear sexuality in music, then can one not hear other aspects of an individual in an artist's work? It was rhetorical, as much as anything – I'm sure that nobody would actually be able to do that.

My understanding is that Wagner was anti-semitic, but that the Nazis' main interest in his music was in its use of Germanic myths and legends – particularly, of course, those of the Niebelungenlied. The Nazis were extremely clever at picking up bits and pieces of culture and history and pressing them to their unpleasant agenda. One could look at the work of the philosopher Nietzsche as another example – he was actually quite pro-semitic, and his ideas of Übermensch have nothing to do with racism in any way, but that wasn't about to stop the Nazis. As an aside, it's interesting to contemplate what Richard Strauss did with Nietzsche's Thus Sprake Zarathustra – particularly in light of Strauss's early infatuation with the Nazis.

It's an interesting point that you raise in terms of Wagner and Prussian culture; I'd suggest – and this is merely my personal opinon – that Wagner had more in common with the paintings of Casper David Friedrich: romantic in the truest sense of the 19th century meaning of the word; a rejection of Classicism and, to an extent, the Enlightenment. For me, the great days of Prussia were very much part of the Classical tradition (although this, of course, is a simplification).

You mention Berlin – and speak to what my best friend (a German, himself) refers to as my "Prussian heart". He was in the capital a few days ago and tells me that he's brought me a present from the private chambers of Frederick the Great. And yes, I've been to the Riechstag myself; I walked around in a state of excitement, telling myself that this was where Bismarck had thrown teacups around when he was staging a tantrum in order to get his way with the Kaiser. Perhaps it's not surprising that my personal literary icon is Thomas Mann. :)
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
Dear Sybarite,

may I at first thank you for your wonderful posts which I sometimes use to improve my poor English! Seriously - no kidding.:)

Back to the thread-

sorry I failed to find the direct link on the following book in the Internet, but I believe you may have read it before, as it was really popular that time ( 2000 ) and was widely discussed in the Net -


Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps by Alan & Barbara Pease ... Alan & Barbara Pease on. 27th March 2000. at. Steve & Katherine's. Alias Grace. by ...
website.lineone.net/~ourbookclub

The book is somewhat similar to the article you posted here about a week ago

http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/336...-up-baton.html

( about the female conductors ), but it is more general - why the behavior of the men and women is not similar in the same situation . Well , I strongly hope you have read it.

May I suppose that ( basing on the proven fact that the female and male brains are differently organised and differently function - please see there, fail to describe it ) , as the composing is a kind of a mental activity - that the pieces composed by the female and male composers may differently sound as well?

To the topic of Tchaikovsky - I am aware of the fact that the composing in the past centuries ( up to the 20 C. ) was totally a man's world just because of the social reasons. Therefore one can not speak about any "female" music of the romantic period in order to compare, but the works of some gay composers could be regarded in this context, though they would shift from one pole to another ( sorry for my awful English one more time, hope you know what I mean -

wasn't suggesting that one could hear anti-semitism in Wagner's music – merely trying to raise the issue of whether, if one can hear sexuality in music, then can one not hear other aspects of an individual in an artist's work? It was rhetorical, as much as anything – I'm sure that nobody would actually be able to do that.

maybe you can agree nevertheless, that somebody would be able to hear such things as the chord progressions and even sometimes name them, or see the difference between the key and modal change, or hear the nuances of the melodic lines and analyse them. Basing on the sources named above , and on my own ( rather modest ) experience, I would say that:

-the female ( or gay , depending on the fact to which "pole" they are closer )
composers would more often use the plagal cadence of the harmonic major as the male composers, or they would prefer it in general cases to the
authentic one, as the progression xxx-IV-IVm-I sounds smoother and not that resolute and definite as xxx-IV-V-I;

- the female ( or gay ) composers would use the dissonant chords or such chord structures more seldom as their male colleagues as the said chords make the music more rough and disharmonic;

- the female ( or gay )composers would pay much more attention as their male colleagues to the nuancing and working out the melodic lines, which makes music generally more beautiful, the male composers in the similar cases may prefer to use the key changes, richer chords, rhythmic changes - in other words, the means making music more complex and sometimes rather not beautiful;

- the female ( or gay ) composers would rather prefer to use the smooth voicings and melodic lines - they would likely avoid the "sharp ankles".

This is a very general approach , there can be for sure a lot of exceptions. Say, the essence about the melodic lines can not be applied to the music of the baroque period, as the rich nuancing was just an inalienable part of that music. I cannot say anything about whether or how it could be relevant to non-diatonic ( atonal ) music.

If you want a short example - here we go.

You asked about Cole Porter - the very first piece of him I mentioned was NIGHT AND DAY, which is actually one of my favourite jazz-standarts.

Let's see -

the main theme of it ( part A ) based on the commonly used in jazz II-V-I progression. In the original of the piece, this transition is softened by the following means: II5b7-V7b9-Imaj7, sometimes as well played as IVm6-V7b9-..., so that you must go the major harmonic scale as you improvise it ( or necessary add the VIIIb tone ) . Futher, the bridge is an absolutely fine nuanced piece of work - #IVb5,7 - IVm7 - IIIm - IIIbdim - Imaj7. This is actually none of the mentioned cadences ( jazz is rather a modal music as a Dur-moll system ). But nevertheless, this transition ( complemented by the chromatically descending bass line ) is that smooth that you can glide on it - no trace of any "sharp ankles". As mentioned, I just love this piece - namely for this wonderful feeling here.

Back to Tchaikovsky - you can try to analyse in this way any of his works - as you see it is much more boring as just to listen to them. I myself did that some time ago ( the piano cycle Seasons Of The Year ), came to the certain conclusions and will stand on them. Herewith I want to say good bye to this thread, and let one of the greatest Russian composers rest in peace at last.

If you want to argue on that matter , may I please ask you from now on to be a bit more specific and use the common musical terms, so that I could understand you. From my side, I can not add anything more to this thread.

ROJO- I hope I answered your question herewith. As you see, there is no uncanny talent here, and not a sign of any sexual discrimination in it. This is just my opinion and I don't think I will ever change it.

Now - to conclude and to finish disputes - one more question to anybody still interested-

....of one composer, then perhaps one can hear it in the music of another composer. Surely it wouldn't make any difference whether any of the composers in question were composers of classical music or easy listening, pop, jazz or rock?....

I like it that we can discuss the related genre here. The rock music was born in the western world in the present times, so I can't imagine any kind of the sexual discrimination in this sphere . Nevertheless-

can you name me a few heavy metal gay or female bands? Well, rather difficult. Ok,what about the blues bands? Or just rock bands?
Please be specific in this case as well ( don't name jazz or pop artists and vocalists/ pure vocal acts ).

Please don't name any at all if you doubt about it ,or if you see you are talking about the exceptions. Rock is almost exclusively a man's world now ,as well as 30 years ago - why????

Best regards
Andrew
 
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zlya

New member
Dear Sybarite,
Therefore one can not speak about any "female" music of the romantic period in order to compare, but the works of some gay composers could be regarded in this context, though they would shift from one pole to another

Clara Schumann? Fanny Mendelssohn? I realize that you are trying to say that there are not MANY female composers, and those that exist are exceptions to the rule. However, there are enough examples of romantic works by women to allow comparative gender-based analysis.

There is a school of analysis which deals with homosexuality in music, and your ideas are pretty much square with theirs. The subdominant is generally considered feminine, the dominant masculine. Keys such as C major and D minor are considered manly, while C-sharp minor is womanly.

I find it very interesting to read about, but I don't actually believe it relates to compositional tendencies. These associations are based on listeners perceptions and theoreticians ideas rather than actual compositional practice. Just because the subdominant is considered a feminine tonality--an association that goes back centuries to the time when female composers were extremely rare--does not necessarily mean that women, or gays for that matter, use it more in composition.

I have not found any actual evidence that there are definite differences between the composition styles of women and men. As you said, women and men think differently, so I am not opposed to the idea that there are differences, but I don't think these differences have been in any way demonstrated. Therefore basing an analysis on such presumed differences is sloppy, at best, and ignores the fact that the variation in style between individual composers is so great as to dwarf any gender based trends. So perhaps Cole Porter composed without sharp angles because he was Cole Porter, not because of gender or sexual orientation.

I would like to see a large scale gender based study, to see whether women in fact do compose differently from men. I think it would be fascinating.
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
I can't see why everone is so passionate about if Tchaikovsky was gay or not ... it makes NO difference to his music, his inspired genius was musically driven, not testosterone (or lack of it) driven ... this thread is becoming very, very tedious.
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
I can't see why everone is so passionate about if Tchaikovsky was gay or not ... it makes NO difference to his music, his inspired genius was musically driven, not testosterone (or lack of it) driven ... this thread is becoming very, very tedious.

Absolutely . Just because I said goodbye to it. I just tried to answer the questions , posted to me, as good as I could do it, and had no idea to push my opinion to anyone. Sorry if I offended anybody - I don't believe you can find anything negative said about Tchaikovsky's, Portrer's or any other music in any of my posts. All right then, let us stop with that.
 

wtwt5237

Banned
What is it that drives some people to inquire into his favorite musician's life?

I agree such discussion is totally tedious. But in music fields or literary fields, such inquiries often take place.
I think the love for his favorite musican's works is the initial push. First music, then who's the composer, and then what about his life and last special features that makes him write these pieces.
Your ideas?
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
I just wonder if bilbo47 has been following this thread he or she started...

Yah ... one would think ... (Doh)

. . . . .
I think the love for his favorite musican's works is the initial push. First music, then who's the composer, and then what about his life and last special features that makes him write these pieces.
Your ideas?

Bingo!! I've followed this thread for awhile ... can't understand what difference it means to some to know what the sexual preferences were of a composer ... What difference does it make, and what is to be gained upon knowing? Certainly the music still flows the same way ... just my 2 kroners worth ... :grin: Long live Tchaikovsky!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

janny108

New member
You know that is an interesting thought: is there any hint of homo/heterosexuality in the music itself? Not to get off track, but when I hear Mussorsky's night on bald mountain, it gives me the creeps, like there is some sort of internal strife going on.
Jan
 

janny108

New member
I LOVE Tchaikovsky's music too. I actually have quite a bit of it downloaded! I think his personal life is a bit sad, regardless of his sexuality.
Jan
 
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