• Welcome to the Pipe Organ Forum! This is a part of the open community Magle International Music Forums focused on pipe organs (also known as "church organs"), organists, organ music and related topics.

    This forum is intended to be a friendly place where technically advanced organists and beginners (or even non-organists) can feel comfortable having discussions and asking questions. We learn by reading and asking questions, and it is hoped that the beginners (or non-organists) will feel free to ask even the simplest questions, and that the more advanced organists will patiently answer these questions. On the other hand, we encourage complex, technical discussions of technique, music, organ-building, etc. The opinions and observations of a diverse group of people from around the world should prove to be interesting and stimulating to all of us.

    As pipe organ discussions can sometimes become lively, it should be pointed out that this is an open forum. Statements made here are the opinion of the poster, and not necessarily that of the forum itself, its administrator, or its moderators.

    In order to post a new topic - or reply to existing ones - you may join and become a member by clicking on Register New User. It's completely free and only requires a working email address (in order to confirm your registration - it will never be given away!). We strive to make this a friendly and informative forum for anyone interested in pipe organs and organ music.

    (Note: If you wish to link to and promote your own website please read this thread first.)

    Many kind regards
    smile.gif

    Frederik Magle
    Administrator

    Krummhorn
    Co-Administrator

Can you really hear those 64' tones?

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
A 64' is an *expensive draught* but does contribute to the ensemble in a suitable acoustic. Having heard that instrument in person I observe that upper octaves really *charge* the instrument but the lowest octave seems to fizzle out. Which leads me to think about the low air pressure and quantity of wind it is voiced on - 3-1/2" AFAIK. It stands to reason if one is paying for 8-16 hertz frequencies(64' - 32') then one should have higher pressure and greater wind quantity for the desired effect. There is lots of 32' magnificence on that instrument - why only let the 64' sound like the passing of flatulence from an elephant?

Imho, the 64' should really *thwack*! Think of a huge bass drum being stroked eight times a second at FFF. However, one should balance out the sound throughout the octaves e.g. FFF at the lowest note and MF at the highest note. The reason being that the upper octaves are already spoken for by the 32's and 16's. The 64' reed should be the *drama stop*, for want of a better word. :grin:

Just some thoughts,

Giovanni :tiphat:
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Expensive draught made me laugh. Actually, I have no problems hearing it sound through, as it was used in last Tuesday's free recital at the end of one piece. But it sounds to me like a demonic clapping ... not necessarily a musical note, as such.
 

Simon Jansfort

New member
Well, the myth about not being able to hear a 64' anyway, is certainly untrue it seems. Quite a magnificent pipe that must be. From my calculations a grown man would be able to crawl through it, did it lie down ...

Simon
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Simon - you would, possible be able to crawl through it, not certain. I've only seen pictures of its tongue (bottom C tongue) and it's contained in a glass box. The rest of pipe is wooden.
 

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Hi contratrombone64,

The acoustic physicists say that the average human can distinguish a musical frequency that does not dip below 20Hz. Methinks that's a bit on the conservative side but for the sake of argument and the overwhelming number of people with *average hearing* I'll assent to it. Furthemore, there is a sub-field within the discipline called psycho-acoustics, which, if I'm not totally mistaken deals with the way a human reacts to different frequencies.

When the lower octave of the 32's are played, there is a feeling of *grandeur* which the orchestra cannot command, especially if you have both a 32' foundation and 32' reed stop drawn. It is terrific!!! Of course, when you can kick in a 64' octave, well, then it is otherworldy. You'll notice the difference when the Diaphone Profunda 64' underpins the ensemble of the Atlantic City Convention Hall Organ. AFAIK, it is voiced on 35" of wind pressure and I believe that the blower that feeds it is rated at 50 h.p.

Cheers!

Giovanni :tiphat:
 

Albert

New member
Hi contratrombone64,

The acoustic physicists say that the average human can distinguish a musical frequency that does not dip below 20Hz. Methinks that's a bit on the conservative side but for the sake of argument and the overwhelming number of people with *average hearing* I'll assent to it. Furthemore, there is a sub-field within the discipline called psycho-acoustics, which, if I'm not totally mistaken deals with the way a human reacts to different frequencies.

However, the physicists are speaking only of the single harmonic at the 16 Hz of a 32' pipe. The human brain hears that the pitch is lower than that which is heard. This is the principle behind the acoustic bass. 32 Hz plus the 5th at 10 2/3', 48 Hz produce in the mind the impression of 16 Hz. In the case of the 64' pipes, we hear the bottom note with our brain, even though we do not physically hear the 16 Hz tone.
 

Soubasse

New member
Did get to play the Sydney Town Hall instrument (I believe it's known as the "Megathyrium" :confused: ) a few years back. Full organ from the console and it sounds like a Bass drum rumbling. Quite impressive really. Best way to check if it's in tune is to use a stopwatch:)

Matt
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
I have never heard the term Megathyrium used and know the instruement and its current custodian quite well (Ampt). Mind you, I've not asked him if it's got any odd labels ...
 

Soubasse

New member
Aye, quite a character is Robert. I once shared a discussion panel with him at an OHTA conference on composition for organ and he did most of the talking (well he was chairing). Mr. Ampt also gave an entertaining address later the same evening about the Sydney Town Hall org. It wasn't there that I heard the term Megathyrium - I think I read it in a Sydney Organ Journal or something.

Matt
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Matt - it's apt. One the of the criticisms when this monster was built was that it really did not advance organ building at all. In fact, it was highly criticised for having only a modest swell division. The 64' contra trombone was the only innovation ... at the time. It has been fiddled with since on numerous occasions.
 

Piggy

New member
Well, this makes me all the more keen to sample the delights of the Grand Organ at Sydney Town Hall.

What's the deal on eyesight deterioration now that I'm well in my 40's? I only hope my hearing lasts out until 2010, when I am planning a trip down under, specially so I can have a go on this giant! :)
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Piggy, the Town Hall organ is available for any organist to play, but there's a catch: you need to contact the City Organist first (Robert Ampt) and there's a fee for "having a go". I'm not sure what that fee is, but I understand it's not a too much money.
 

Piggy

New member
Flatulence?

A 64' is an *expensive draught* the lowest octave seems to fizzle out. Which leads me to think about the low air pressure and quantity of wind it is voiced on - 3-1/2" AFAIK. why only let the 64' sound like the passing of flatulence from an elephant?

Giovanni :tiphat:


Hmmmmm. Thanks very much for the info Contratrombone. I was hoping to do a little more than 'have a go', to be honest, so I'm in the process of booking the Hall so I can do the Saent-Saens Organ Symphony No. 3. I wanted to play this on the Grand Organ because of the 64 footer- I heard that Mr Saent-Saens transposed the original work down to C especially so that the largest pipes on the organ could be used for the all important loud bits at the end.

I get the feeling from Mr Giovanni that the full force of the Orchestra might drown out the Contratrombone, which would be a pity. Could you ask Mr Ampt if he can connect a bit more wind pressure to the bottom octave?

:cool:
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
The contratrombone is not an extremely loud stop. But as its predominant effect is percussive, it won't be hidden. I've played the Saint-Saens (in the orchestra, not as organist) in the Town Hall, on the same program we did the Poulenc Concerto for strings and timps. In all a fine performance by Mr. Ampt.
 

Piggy

New member
:D Sounds great to me. Maybe if your orchestra isnt busy, you could come along too. It'll be a lot better with an orchestra I think. And 2 pianos.:smirk:
 

Soubasse

New member
Piggy, just noticed your location. Was in Cardiff many years ago and got to try out the rather nice instrument in the Concert Hall there. Very similar to the one here in the Adelaide Town Hall (except ours is bigger I think!). Speaking of which, I have managed to drown out the Adelaide Symphony with the Town Hall organ AND the Festival Theatre organ (on separate occasions I should add ;) - we haven't yet figured out how to control one from the other ... nice idea though). Must be in the voicing or something (or the Adelaide Symph just isn't really that loud:) ).

Matt
 

Piggy

New member
Maybe I should start a new thread about this, but I don't know how :confused:, but anyway I really don't rate the Cardiff St David's Hall organ at all.

To the uneducated masses, organs fall in to just one of two categories, represented by a few adjectives. On the one hand, 'squeaky', 'piercing', 'deafening', 'thin' , 'weak' 'a waste of money' , might be used. On the other, 'majestic', 'thundering', 'ground shaking', 'thrilling', 'beautiful' 'proper' etc etc.

Guess which adjectives are commonly used to describe not only the St David's Hall Organ, but the brand new Spath organ in St Peter's?

The Llandaff Cathedral organ, woefully inadequate, was thankfully struck by lightning a few weeks ago, so that should be the last we hear of that sorry beast until the NEW one is built. Talking to the organist yesterday, he assures me that the new one will be a PROPER organ :grin:

I naturally suggested that it should sport at least ONE 64' stop, preferable a contra trombone, if not two:smirk:
 

Soubasse

New member
That's strange - when I was there it was following a recital by Thomas Trotter who played several 'ground-shaking' pieces which the instrument did fairly well I thought. Perhaps there has been some degradation over the past ten years. It was a Collins instrument wasn't it? Despite resurrection by Walker, perhaps there's no hope :eek: .

Visited Llandaff but never heard it - seems as though I didn't miss anything. Struck by lightning and they're replacing it with a new REAL one?? You lucky people you! Wouldn't happen over here.
 

Piggy

New member
Thomas Trotter played several 'ground-shaking' pieces which the instrument did fairly well

Now, this should DEFINITELY be a new thread I think- The St David's Hall , Cardiff.

Good old Trotter! (smashing name, don't you agree?:cool:) He could make a barrel organ sound good.

Alas, the instrument in question was indeed built by Collins, with Ralph Downes as consultant, I think. People far more learned than myself have ably commented on the subject of just why squeaky organs came into vogue - see 'Did Ralph Downes Die a Disappointed Man?' on Invision Power Board for example. I tried to paste the link but it doesn't seem to want to co-operate.

The action was dreadful apparently, and was replace by Walker. I'm not sure what other work (if any) they did, but, if its thunder you want from an organ, and I do, you'll need more than a few tin whistles.

Its just the opinion of an amateur, of course, and I don't mind if the educated sneer :rolleyes:, I know what I like the sound of, and I'm really looking forward to playing the mighty Grand Organ of Sydney Town Hall, replete with 16's, 32's and the all important 64 footer, since that's what I think an organ should sound like.:grin:

By the way, Adelaide sounds nice. Is it far from Sydney? Maybe I could take that in aswell.
 
Top