Election 08

[Krummhorn]

This whole Electoral College thing in the US is insane, at least in my warped thinking process. Just reading about this in wikipedia, where is states:

"The electors generally cast their votes for the winner of the popular vote in their respective states, but in many cases are not required by law to do so."

I find that rather scary ... the US is the only country that indirectly elects its chief executive in this manner. I would much rather prefer a majority vote - just knowing some yahoo could take the popular vote and turn it towards the opposite candidate is not a comforting thought.

I read some article that suggested Hillary should jump ship and become the candidate for the Independent Party.

Final thought on the campaign thus far ... there should be a cap on spending ... these candidates have clearly shown that they have hoards of money to throw away ... why not give that money to those who need it the most ... the poor, the homeless, the starving people in our own country. We know who the candidates are - we don't need to be bombarded with endless paper notices that 90% of the people trash anyway ... I hate election years ... waste - waste - waste.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hallo Andrew,

Wie gehts, mein bruder? A now not-so-secret thought I have harboured the past year is that Pres. Bush should serve eight years as President in Russia and Putin should serve 8 years as President of the U.S.A At least Putin would kick the lazy-assed Congress and Senate dogs that over-populate D.C. these days.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[methodistgirl]

Amen to that corno.
judy tooley

 

[AcrAngEL]

Now that the candidates are set for the US Presidential Election, Barack Obama and John McCain are beginning to set the tone for their campaign. As I Look at their most recent speeches, in pollclash what do you think about what you hear?

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Andrew :tiphat::clap::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Did you know that Putin and his self chosen substitute Medvedev (can´t spell it) today are two of the wealthiest men in Russia? Since most of the olligagers have been imprisoned on accusations on taxavation.

Though I find your post very funny and this is not the first time, let me just point out a few sides of a true democracy, according to the rules we in the western world have implemented for the U.N. for instance according to what, we have taught the Third World Countries about the democratical election system.

Of course first of all, you can not have a democratical election in a country, when there is an on-goin war in a particular country, somehow a huge contradiction to what we have seen in the USA controled elections in Iraq.

We decide and vote for as ordinary voters/citizens, who will represent us in the parliaments politically and who to govern each our democratical countries, which means according to the post from Corno Dolce talking about the lazy US congress, they have chosen as the American people in the USA, mirrors the US citizens themselves - as lazy. To which I agree.

Due to the 2000 election in the USA, Mr. Gore and the Dems. accused the Reps. on election fraud. This statement from Mr. Gore: "We were cheeted from the victory" evolved to a 6 months criss cross accusations throughout the USA, in fact closer to a new Civil War in the USA than ever before.

Now, according to what we the western world caucasion white race have taught the Third World countries about democracy and about democratical elections, this would have meant should the USA had followed the same democratical rules, that there would have to be a re-election, without a question. That is why we always in countries with huge corruption have observers to monitor that the election will pull through without corruption.

Look to present day Zimbabwe and Mr. Mugabe.

The issue in the 2000 election in the USA was never according to democracy as a political ruling system, whether the Reps actually cheeted or not? The issue from a real democratical point of view was and is. If one of the two parties in a two-party political system, accuses the other party of election-fraud, then according to democratical rules there must be, without any questions or denial, an authorised re-election with the present nessesary U.N. observers.

Since the Congress of the USA are known these years for harbouring corrupt politicians by the dozens and some phedophiles as well, who uses their offices for e-mailing boys at 12 years of age - the so called Fat Cats who only think of themselves to fill their own pockets, like Vice President Dick Cheney and former Secretary of the Defence Mr. Rumsfeld - both of them employes at the Haliburton Corporation as well - there would have to be a re-election having United Nation observers present.

But it never happened, mostly because the American people do not really know what democracy means, with all it´s benefits towards the - Power for the People - as always before sighed, rolled over and went back to sleep.

You also know that in real democratical countries, the right to vote is a birth right. Not something you have to register for.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Hallo Andrew,

Wie gehts, mein bruder? A now not-so-secret thought I have harboured the past year is that Pres. Bush should serve eight years as President in Russia and Putin should serve 8 years as President of the U.S.A At least Putin would kick the lazy-assed Congress and Senate dogs that over-populate D.C. these days.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hi CD, danke, alles klar!!!

Well, concerning Putin is not a bad idea actually. Only then one have to be prepared that CEO of Exxon will be very likely imprisoned and sent to Alaska!!

 

[Ouled Nails]

One problem with the ever popular critique of Congress and Senate is that the United States is/are a "republic", not a "democracy" in the sense of direct representation. If the balance of power (the "checks and balance system") is tipping in favor of an unreceptive president (once elected), then the legislative branch is even less apt to represent than it is supposed to.
A "republic," then, not a "democracy."

Take a look at the wikipedia democracy index. The lighter blue constitutes the highest level of democracy; the darker blue and the black countries are projected as ranking among the lowest levels. Russia is still closer to the "dark" axis of power. Do you really want a dictator to head a "republic"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imageemocracyindex2.png
Edit: Well this link does not work. But you'll find the map on wikipedia's "democracy" page.

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Ouled Nails :tiphat:

With all due respect sir, I am afraid you have got the concept of a republic or a Kingdom wrong, quote from your post: A "republic," then, not a "democracy." - very wrong. France is a republic with a President´, and they do have democracy.

A republic, due to history, means you have a country with democracy and a president as the top political leader.

In a Kingdom, where you have democracy (like in Denmark, Norway or Sweden) neither the King nor the Church, do not have political influence.

In the USA the President, thinks he is God or rather The Devil, and the Church and the military complex decide the politics.

Democracy simply means from the old Greeks from where democracy as a political ruling system where the majority always decides/win evolved - Power for the people, which means you have a senate, where the representavives the people have chosen through open and free elections in peace time, all are a part of the senate. The people choose their representatives through free elections or the government as well through ordinary majority among the people of a country/Union of states.

In the USA in recent years, President Jr. has used his veto, whenever the majority are against him. The leagal reason for impeachment.

Due to the midterm elections in 2006, the majority of the people and the majority of the political representatives demanded for the USA to begin to redraw your soldiers from Iraq.

The despot/tyrant President Jr. www.usforglobalsupremacy and check as well www.newamericancentury did not care to follow neither of the two groups - the people nor his own political colleagues - the majority - at the Hill. He veto´d three times in a roll. In which, he broke the rules of the democracy, because the majority always wins. Besides this, they invented the only known official torture prison on Guantanamo, and the Rendition program. Both of them, not possible within a democracy, but certainly in any none democratical country.

So the difference from a Republic to a Kingdom has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy as a political system.

Besides, have anyone ever heard President Jr. or the Reps. and the Dems. talk about making Iraq into a Republic? No, he speaks wrongfully about the New Democracy of Iraq, which of course is BS, since the elections, three of them have been forced through by the invating military power of the CIA, who has decided which politicians could be elected and who not, and the USA military killing machine, during a very bloody, torturing and extremely violent period in our time and the history of Iraq, where 4,5 million iraqis have fled their country and more than 650.000 innocent ordinary people (in 2006, according to the Johns Hopkins institute in the USA) have been killed since the invation in 2003.

That´s tyrany - look to www.wikipedia This is why the USA do not have a real democracy only a pretended democracy, because in a real demkocarcy the people of the country must be active at all times, to check whether the representatives they have elected in open and free elctions for the senate/Congress, live up to what they promised and live up to the Constitution of these United States of America, but as always they did not do anything, they sighed, rolled over and went back to sleep.

Politicians on the Hill should only be politicians on the Hill, as long as they represent the democracy of the USA. President Jr. never has.

Respectfully,

 

[Mahlon]

intet-at-tabe, I've been reading your recent comments, and I must say you've hit it spot on! Although I do think America used to be something of a democracy.. maybe a couple hundred years ago, I do agree with you that the Bush administration (or the American people themselves) have singlehandedly turned one of the most beautiful types of governemnt in the history of the world into a corrupt and largely political system. I think it was either Jefferson or Adams who had large reservations about the party system in American politics. I wonder why?

Well, as undemocratic as America has become, we do have a small right left. That is the right to free speech. (I know there are many limitations) What I'm getting at is this:

I am currently heading a volunteer student run effort for the Obama campaign in Stamford, CT, yet we would love to have people on board from all over America, who would work in their particular location. If anyone is interested in participating or volunteering, please let me know at [email protected] and I will gladly send you more information about what we will be doing. I believe that this election is too important to stand by and do nothing about, and I am only 17 years old, too young to vote even! We must stand up for our rights, as Bob Marley says. So please, if anyone is interested, just email me and we can help elect Barack Obama to become president of the U.S., and maybe even make America a little bit more democratic. Is that too much to ask for?

Best,
Mahlon

 

[Mahlon]

Obama: on the issues-

http://ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm#War_+_Peace

War in Iraq

http://ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_War_+_Peace.htm#Iraq_War

 

[Krummhorn]

. . . . . In the USA the President, thinks he is God or rather The Devil, and the Church and the military complex decide the politics . . .

Bzzzztt ... ... the Church is totally separate from the State (government) in the US ... we do not have a "national church" nor "state church".

Each church (religious institute, et al) here stands on its own without any aid from the government whatsoever. They operate solely from weekly tithing by the membership, and from that, they support their respective synod or main church body, and they pay the salaries of employees of the church as well as all other expenses (utilities, office supplies, maintenance, etc.).

When a church wants to but a new organ, they themselves must raise the entire cost - there is no help from the government - ergo, the Church and the State are totally separate entities.

 

[methodistgirl]

Amen to that Brother!ray::grin:
judy tooley

 

[Contratrombone64]

this thread has turned rather nasty I feel, maybe it's come to the end of its useful life?

 

[Corno Dolce]

Dear CT64,

This thread became useless about three weeks ago. My most humble suggestion to our dear moderator Master Krummhorn is that he should consider locking down this thread.

Humbly,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

 

[Krummhorn]

There is no present need to "lock down" this thread as is being suggested.

Members here are entitled to present their opinions and views, and as yet, no forum rules are being broken within this thread. If the "ad homs" begin, appropriate action will be taken by the staff.

 

[Contratrombone64]

krummiest - you're right, as always.

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Bzzzztt ... ... the Church is totally separate from the State (government) in the US ... we do not have a "national church" nor "state church". quote]

Master Krummhorn :tiphat:

With all do respect sir.

Do you remember Jerry Farwell, who passed away a couple of years ago, the originator of the baptist/christian organisation Moral Majority? This organisation turned an yearly income more than 70 million dollars payed for by true believers of The Lord and Jesus Christ from all over the USA. Until the FBI in the middle of the 1980´s began to study and investigate, where all these money went to. They found that 2/3 of these money went straight into the pocket of Jerry Farwell. However these investigations against Moral Majority were ended, when the USA had a new political government - the Republican government?

The same Jerry Farwell, who could not defend himself in court from the expression spoken by Larry Flynt (the owner and editor of Hustler magazine): "Jerry Farwell is an addicted alchoholic and an incesturous pig". Jerry Farwell lost his own case in court. Soon after this Larry Flynt was shot down on an open street?

Moral Majority had another selfchosen obligation. No republican politician would ever be alowed to run for the US Congress, had he not been screened and approved of by the Moral Majority and Jerry Farwell personally, which would indicate that the Church, the organisation Moral Majority had huge influence in political matters on the Republican Party on the Hill in DC. Most true christian believers in the USA today are possitive on reinforcement of the USA military? Most christian believers in the USA today believe more in the word from the Old testament, than they believe in Darwinism. Aprox. 100 million Americans according to the International Gallup Research Institute.

The Bible as we all know of it was never a democratical statement.

When President Jr. announced the invation of Iraq to the American people and the world outside the USA he stated, that he had a conversation with God the night before, who supported his idea to invade Iraq? Like God supported the USA, when Lyndon B. Johnson signed the military proposal to iniciate 42 consecutice days and nights on Napalm and agent orange bombings over North Vietnam in the 1960´s. Do you Master Krummhorn believe God would say yes - Kill anyone you please for in my name?

But it´s not the key issues here on whether a country apply to democracy or not.

You can disclose or detect whether your country is a democracy or not through simple asked questions:

1) Do my country accept torture as a tool of punishment on prisoners, not even trialed yet?

2) Do my country accept and respect the Human Rights?

3) Do my country accept and respect the Geneva Convention on Warfare?

4) Do my country accept assassinations on our democratical political elected leaders and political leaders in foreign countries?

5) Do my country accept and respect the right for all people to be different and have different opinions?

6) Do my country accept, that no politician nor ordinary citizens are above the law of my country?

7) Do my country accept equallity and freedom for all men and women to all citizens in my country according to the Constitution of my country?

8) Do my country accept and respect the U.N. as an international forum for all countries to meet and discuss international disagreements - peacefully?

9) Do my country accept and respect that all prisoners have the right to legal representation to help to defend one self?

10) Do my country accept and respect that religion has nothing to do with politics?

11) Do my country accept slavery in any form?

Respectfully,

Dear CT64,

This thread became useless about three weeks ago. My most humble suggestion to our dear moderator Master Krummhorn is that he should consider locking down this thread.

Humbly,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

Dear Corno Dolce :tiphat:

Let me introduce your own expression towards me from a few weeks ago: Are you a bit defensive?

this thread has turned rather nasty I feel, maybe it's come to the end of its useful life?

CT64 :tiphat:

Why are you afraid, or rather what are you afraid of CT64?

Democracy, for instance, means freedom of speech and freedom or different opinions.

Don´t worry CT64, Denmark will not invade the USA. It´s against the rules of the United Nations to invade a sovereign member country. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

intet-at-tabe, I've been reading your recent comments, and I must say you've hit it spot on! Although I do think America used to be something of a democracy.. maybe a couple hundred years ago, I do agree with you that the Bush administration (or the American people themselves) have singlehandedly turned one of the most beautiful types of governemnt in the history of the world into a corrupt and largely political system. I think it was either Jefferson or Adams who had large reservations about the party system in American politics. I wonder why?

Best,
Mahlon

Dear Mahlon :tiphat::clap:

Whether you are 17 or 64 it does not matter. What matters are that you so obviously have formed an opinion about your country and it´s current corrupt political leadership, and the way your present Republican government within less than 8 years has thrown everything possitive and internationally negociated and approved of agreements, we all in the western world have fought for since the WWII - away.

If you can keep Barack Obama alive through the autumn untill the November 4 election, the USA might be open for reengagement towards democratical solutions and discissions for the better of all Americans equally and everyone else on this planet, that we all share.

Personally, I admire you as a very talented musican, but much more as an American male, who dares to speak his opinion. Not all do, not even here at the MIMF.

So keep on being curious and keep on your independence to have the right to speak your opinions on anything whatsoever, that is the essence of a true democracy.

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Intet - I'm not afraid in the slightest but your passion for American politics, which seems very one sided (i.e. if one doesn't agree with you he/she is wrong) and I find it frankly quite tedious, repetative and boring.

CT64 :tiphat:

You´re wrong, I do not express my personal opinion. I express the opinion of what a democracy is all about living in one of the best functional democracies in the world, not to mention that most of the world outside the USA consider the USA to be the worst risk towards world peace, according to the Lancet (an internationally respected magazine).

Did you know that Time Magazine a few years ago, when they released their yearly poll on who are the most influencial persons in the world today - did not have President George W. Bush Jr. among the 100 most influencial persons in the world.

It has never in the history of this particular poll happened before that a USA President was not among the 100 most influencial persons in the world.

It does make one think, doesn´t it CT64?

Due do a dudicous thought upon ... if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut ... I've now censored my own comment.

CT64 :tiphat:

What excactly would be "nice" in your ears according to the current leadership of your country the USA?

Do you remember Barry Goldwater?, considered 40 years ago to be a liberal democrat, who was the first to express: We can´t believe in our own government.

 

[Krummhorn]

CT64 :tiphat:

What excactly would be "nice" in your ears according to the current leadership of your country the USA?

Intet,
Ahem ... CT64 is a resident & citizen of Australia, if I'm not mistaken.

Admittedly, the USA does not have a perfect government system - doubtful that there is any "perfect" government in any society, or everyone would be moving there tomorrow.

Ok ... ok ... We get the point on the deficiencies within the US.

Some of us were born here ... our families are here, and for whatever reason, we have decided to remain citizens of the USA, and like others around the world, we then support our country of choice as is our right to do so. The majority of us pay our taxes and try our best to obey the laws. There are crooked people in every country and every continent in the world ... it shouldn't mean that their government system is broken ...it's life and the way it is, and will remain such until the end of time.

Ok, the above was stated as a forum member. What follows are my comments wearing the regulator cap:

I'm trying to remain third party as much as possible in my comment here, and at the same time regulate the thread. The perception is that this thread has turned into a very biased "discussion" against a certain country.

There are always two very explosive discussion topics in any forum:

1. Politics
2. Religion

Neither topic will ever have any resolution given the wide scope of people from every walk of life in an online forum community. It's best to state your opinion, once, and leave it at that. It's okay to ask questions and to engage in continued conversation about the topic at hand, but trying to convince the other that your way is the only way, and only posting all the things wrong (and nothing good) about a fellow members country of choice, is not what a good discussion is all about.

There are a good number of members (30 to be exact) who have viewed this thread and yet most have chosen not to comment, primarily because it has become extremely biased against one particular country. I think we all have read enough about the USA and it's internal problems - Kindly give it a rest, ok?

 

[intet_at_tabe]

No problem Mr. Moderator, Master Krummhorn, sir. :tiphat: