Computer Generated Music Composition

ProEtContra

New member
With today's virtual instruments, audio editing programs...there's no limit...
But what's about Composing music, how to create new song/melody/theme...? Composing music with computers is almost norm? Pro Et Contra?
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Indeed it is, ProEtContra.

I've been using a notation software program called Noteworthy Composer since 2003, and my compositions are entered one note at a time - same as Bach and friends did it centuries ago, except now with a computer keyboard and screen. When completed, the score is fully "engraved", and looks neat and clean. In this manner, I can also work on several different projects over time.

I am an accompanist for a very gifted Soprano soloist as well, and at times we have difficulty locating some music tunes ... I've found these tunes, but only in "mid" file format - so I import then into the notation software program, and notes appear on screen, which I then "massage" to remove the instrumentation lines and produce a two staff accompaniment in print ... hence an "arrangement" of what is public domain music anyway. Beats the old days of listening to a phonograph repetitiously and trying to score the music by hand.

There are other systems too ... Harmony Assistant is another great one that one of our members (Musicalis) introduced to us, but I'll let him explain it in more detail.

Indeed, the sky is the limit ... and then some.

By the way, welcome to Magle International Music Forums.
Looking forward to seeing you around the forum community - we have a plethora of interesting discussions ongoing at any time.
 

ProEtContra

New member
First of all i would like to say: obviously I didn't make it clear enough ("Computer Generated Music").
Today's "composing music" is - almost - manipulation by combining and mixing with already exiting loops and patterns.
But, what's about the melody, tune...???
It's not too simple, so, why shouldn't we accept the help of IT?
Probably, you'll be surprised by the amount of software that you will find: Apple Computer's GarageBand software, Classical Music Composer, Easy Music Composer, FlexiMusic Composer, Fractal Music Composer, Jump, Magix Music Maker, Virtual Music Composer,... Yes, all these programs compose new music. And really important notice:
they doesn't require any special knowledge or/and skills of composition. Just click a couple of buttons and listen to the music, new songs. And it belongs to you!...
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
But, there is lots more to creative music than just clicking a few buttons. The knowledge of Counterpoint is a necessary evil to fully understand how instruments relate to one another and how to add sonorous melody lines and intertwine those to make something pleasing to listen to.

Some of today's "creations" are just pure noise without any "creativity", because the person who merely "clicks buttons" does not understand all the nuances (and proper ranges) of the instruments they are using, not to mention the theory of music.

I was educated in the "old school" method of music and composition. I learned the hard way (without computers) having to write manuscript by hand, one note at a time. I still do that today, although instead of writing on paper, the notes are written on a screen with the aid of a software program. I guess I take pride in my creativity, and are more attuned to quality as opposed to the quantity of music produced.
 

Mahlon

New member
I second that Krummhorn! although the field of computer composition, (computers literally writing the music for you) seems intriguing, I don't think it's for me.
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
the man who created a musical Frankenstein

http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/experiments.htm

Don't think it will seriously work.

If we are speaking about kinda composing music for soaps, documentaries etc., where it flows in background, and no one really focuses on it, then such things are possible. Actually it happens already - on a very primitive level, say music for PC games - you may combine the loops and grooves from a library , put a standard chord progression on it...The instruments are available by any modern host or virtual studio like Reason...No probs, and a software can do this as well.

Do any user of computer games/ any soap consumer seriously worries whether the musical stuff was PC produced or not?

If we are speaking about the "serious" music - I hardly believe the success is possible. One can as well say the programs like Paint, Photoshop could replace a real Picasso. People would always expect not only an average structure, but a personal note from a composer...That is, what differs Prokofiev from Shostakovich or Beethoven from Kuhlau. Such things are normally very unpredictable; I am not even sure, whether any composer would be able to describe "his own personal note" sufficiently enough himself .
 

Mahlon

New member
yes exactly, which is why I have extreme reservations when listening to music that is so called, composed by the computer, in the style of a certain composer... http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/mp3page.htm
Apparently the idea is to fill the computer with as much theoretical musical information as possible so that at the very least it can make a piece that follows the "rules of counterpoint as dictated by the composer in question".. this is the very least indeed.
listen to the invention "after bach" or the sonata "after Beethoven" supposedly written by the computer. I get the funny feeling that the programmer, i.e. David Cope, entered in a schematic of a certain piece, say Beethoven's moonlight sonata for example, and just figured out some way of making the computer do a piece with a similiar form but varying the outcome slightly. However interesting it may be to try and make a machine do what a human can, the sonata "after Beethoven" seems to me to be a shoddy reproduction of a grand piece that was already written. I know this sounds elitist, but isn't it an insult to Beethoven to try and do something that he was the sole creator of, and then take credit for it? This isn't Beethoven, this is Beethoven a la IBM. The creative element is nonexistant. Yes I can say most composers or scientists don't really know what the creative element is and why us human's have any sort of creativity at all (or atleast I don't) But we do know that something is there! And I think we do know that at least at the moment, computers, (whose sole original intention is to Compute) lack a certain sense of motivation, or should I say, inspiration to write music? Let alone a sense of what it really is doing. It might be a cool experiment just to see. But I'm afraid Mr. Cope is either trying to become one of the "Great" composers trough his machine, or his writers block is really another word for. I can't compose.
 

Mahlon

New member
I suppose unless they invent a time machine and I can travel back to the 20th century.. I'm in deep doo doo!.. haha. let's hope that "the terminator" doesn't develop too soon, because it seems it is now inevitable, atleast maybe not exactly the way Shwarzenneger had in mind :)
 

musicalis

Member
Hello

If you are interested, I have written, some years ago (when computer screens were 600*480) a software to make random music in an electroacoustic style. This software is free and can be downloaded from my web site. It runs with every PC computers, even if you do not have a Wave blaster sound card.

Here is the link for download : http://musicalis.monespace.net/autres/img165a.zip (400 Kb only).


img159.gif
 

Gongchime

New member
I've been studying how Expert Systems mimic pro composers. I'd really like to see some music composition software which isn't only music sequencing software or music notation/graphing software.

I'd specifically like to see a program that will take a melody I input, perhaps only scanned in, that the computer then runs through all of the traditional music composition transformational devices without making me write them all out and test them on my instrument before I input them into the so called music composition software.

If and when it can instantly create, inversions, retrogrades, retrograde-inversions, permutations, augmentations, diminutions, diatonic transpositions, putting the original melodic series together with the rhythmic retrograde, or putting the melodic series' retrograde inversion with the original melodic rhythm or taking the melodic series from one tune and combining it with the melodic rhythm from another tune, automatically make a diatonic melody pentatonic or automatically change the mode, then and ONLY then will there be any real music composition software in the universe.
 

musicalis

Member
All what you ask for is possible with the french software Harmony-assistant. when a function is not existing, you can add it with the powerful script language in LUA.
 

methodistgirl

New member
I'm telling you the truth my computer won't do it!:mad: It's being it's
stuburn self again this computer. I wanted to hear some of it.:bawl:
It would stop in the middle of a song and say "error can't find file"!
judy tooley
 

ProEtContra

New member
I'm telling you the truth my computer won't do it!:mad: It's being it's
stuburn self again this computer. I wanted to hear some of it.:bawl:
It would stop in the middle of a song and say "error can't find file"!
judy tooley


It wasn’t a long time ago, with the appearance of computers...
"...computers will never defeat humans in the game of chess..."
"...Robert Moog: a dangerous anarchist out to destroy music as we know it..."
There's no area of art, science... that hasn't been compared in this or any other similar way.
Now, try to imagine musicians today who had never used the computer or chess analysis without comp assistance or...

So what is my point here you ask?

A couple of days ago, I have started in this, as well as in some other popular and well visited forums, a new thread titled "Computer Generated Music Composition". The topic for general discussion was a question "Pro Et Contra" on subject: programs for virtual composing / virtual music composers.
Too often the feedback is the same as in the sentences above mentioned.
So, do we have to wait again for several more years before we admit to ourselves that computers have become an inevitable and helpful tool while composing music. Whether we like it or not, it is reality.

The human touch will never be replaced, but that does not neccessarily mean that it can not be pushed and helped by IT. IT can do it also!

Probably you'll say now: He's one of them (developer, author...). Yes, I'm one of them. But, I have never mentioned any fact which would point to it. So, it is not an advertising. I'm just curious about this topic...
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
I'm telling you the truth my computer won't do it!:mad: It's being it's stuburn self again this computer. I wanted to hear some of it.
It would stop in the middle of a song and say "error can't find file"!
judy tooley

That's not the fault of the computer ... it's quite possibly your internet connection causing the bub-a-boo when the "error can't find file" appears.

If you are using a "wireless" connection, there are other electronic transmissions that can cause interference at times, too.

I pulled up the files in question when they were posted, and re-checked them today and all was fine.
 

Andrew Roussak

New member
It wasn’t a long time ago, with the appearance of computers...
"...computers will never defeat humans in the game of chess..."
"...Robert Moog: a dangerous anarchist out to destroy music as we know it..."
There's no area of art, science... that hasn't been compared in this or any other similar way.
Now, try to imagine musicians today who had never used the computer or chess analysis without comp assistance or...

So what is my point here you ask?

A couple of days ago, I have started in this, as well as in some other popular and well visited forums, a new thread titled "Computer Generated Music Composition". The topic for general discussion was a question "Pro Et Contra" on subject: programs for virtual composing / virtual music composers.
Too often the feedback is the same as in the sentences above mentioned.
So, do we have to wait again for several more years before we admit to ourselves that computers have become an inevitable and helpful tool while composing music. Whether we like it or not, it is reality.

The human touch will never be replaced, but that does not neccessarily mean that it can not be pushed and helped by IT. IT can do it also!

Probably you'll say now: He's one of them (developer, author...). Yes, I'm one of them. But, I have never mentioned any fact which would point to it. So, it is not an advertising. I'm just curious about this topic...

ProEtContra,

sorry if I repeat anything, but I guess I still do not understand your point about computer generated music exactly. Which music and for what purposes? This is a core question.

Here some thoughts about it - as I may judge, you develop music software professionally , and need a feedback. I'll be glad if the following may help you.

1. First off, I am very positive concerning using of any music software. As the first synths came, a completely new genre of music ( NEW AGE ) was born, and it did in no respect kill an interest to classical or live music. Furthermore, it had even stimulated such interest ( Switched On Bach, works of Isao Tomita etc. ). PC or Mac are very useful and powerful tools , which Chopin or Mozart could never dream of.

2. Virtual instruments and samplers are already extremely sophisticated - but I think this development came now to kinda "natural limit", set by consumer ( listener). Here a couple of examples.

About a year ago I have read an interview with a very required, top German film composer. A professional of his level would have no ( budget ) probs to make use of any software - for a film score he would likely use a Vienna Symphonic Library. Still, he doesn't. He would rather fly to Romania or Poland to record a live orchestra there ( it is cheaper than in DE ). In his own words, a software can NEVER REPLACE A REAL ORCHESTRA, each musician of which has his own art of playing and years of experience behind him.

Well, knowing the opportunities of VSL, I would say - it actually can ( replace ), but you would need a week of hard labour for a 20-min orchestra piece. This is exactly a job, which an orchestra makes in 20 minutes, with a better result.

3. I had once a chance to speak to mr. Garritan in person, and to his Italian stuff - the two guys who had created a Stradivari Violin software. This programm is a wonder - it sounds like an absolutely real violin, a ready-to-go solution for film music, pop production etc.

But , is it theoretically worth it , to record a violin concerto using this program? I would say - nobody will buy such record then. Even in rock productions, if you replace a drummer with his software clone and put this fact on the cover, you will get the bad sales in response. Even if a listener fails to distinguish a real instrument from its programmed version, he still wants to be sure to get a performance of Jan Pace or Mike Portnoy for his 15 dollars.

Generally, I can not imagine the situation, that people would ever have an interest to:
- read the books written by computer;
- enjoy the pictures created ONLY by means of software;
- buy the CDs ( or what it would be, whatever ) containing computer generated music.

The final consumer is a human being, and people would normally want to have real performance, and a real composer behind a composition. Music generated by computer and played by computer can be only sold to computer.

Concerning a composing software -

it really depends upon , which kind of music is meant here. I can absolutely imagine the educational programs generating music ( they are there already -
Band In The Box... ). Or something just for fun.

In any other case, beginning with film music - a "real" composer will be always a better solution. Any tool brings the best results being used by a professional. And whether an educated composer will ever NEED SUCH A HELPER TO CREATE MUSIC , is another - somewhat interesting - question. My answer is rather not, because composing itself is not only a job - it is a joy. Will we ever miss good composers? Looking through my friends' list on MySpace - strongly doubt ;)

Regards,
Andrew
 
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