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Thread: Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts

  1. #151
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Hi Muza,

    I do totally agree that what Fritzl did was unusually cruel. However, an ideology that justifies flying airplanes into skyscrapers is equally cruel and criminally psychosociopathic.

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  2. #152
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    The guys who flew into skyscrapers did get their just punishment.
    That's death and they got it instantly. This guy who did this
    hideous crime is still in debate.
    judy tooley

  3. #153
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Ms. Judy,

    They died as martyrs for the faith - Martyrdom for a faith is a concept that is ill-understood by a large swath of the general public.

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  4. #154
    Rear Admiral Appassionata Muza's Avatar
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    Corno, I definitely think that these crimes should be stopped by whatever means necessary. As a matter of fact, just a few years ago an aeroplane full of people was saved (not due to torture, but due to screening of phone conversations/emails - which people are so afraid of and protest it like crazy).

    Again, I agree that death of many people is a crime (and of course should be stopped by whatever means necessary), but its still not the same. I guess people can relate more to Fritzls crime and find the torture of a child harder to visualize.
    Why waste money on psychotherapy when you can listen to the B Minor Mass? ~Michael Torke

  5. #155
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Hi Muza,

    I think I have a general grasp of how you are reasoning the problematique about Fritzl and capital punishment. I'll entertain your notions gladly, so no worries, mate

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  6. #156
    Commodore con Forza Andrew Roussak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    I find the discussion on this thread having made a curious turn. I see a strange disconnect from reality here: No torturing of Al-Qaeda operatives and foreign fighters that have been captured but sanctioning of Fritzl being tortured?

    What Fritzl did was criminal, despicable, outrageous, tyrannical, criminally psychosociopathic, and malevolently evil. Justice must be served, no doubt about that. If Fritzl is to be tortured then why not the use of torture in interrogations to help uncover plots where many more people will be maimed and lose their life?
    I second it. There are lots of criminals who deserve it to be tortured , drowned, quartered, burned alive. I understand it, when cops and special agents kill some dangerous criminals at the place as they catch them - because these people know exactly, that after a couple of years these guys will be let go from the prison and will begin again.

    Still, I am sorry to say that the physical tortures, etc. are can not be compatible with the norms of the society we live in - and it is the only world I would personally prefer to be the part of.
    "Once you have tasted flight, you will ever walk with your eyes turned skywards; for there you have been, and there you long to return." - Leonardo Da Vinci


    www.andrew-roussak.com

  7. #157
    Admiral Maestoso marval's Avatar
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    Headline on the front page of the newspaper today, another person stabbed, a bloody knife lying on a busy street. And to cap it all, judges are being told to just slap the maniacs on the wrist.

    When will the punishment fit the crime? How are you going to stop crime if there is no severe deterrent. If people think that all they will get is a slap on the wrist, or a fine, they will continue to comit crime. Also criminals in waiting will think that's an easy life, better than working for a living.


    Margaret

  8. #158
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    Like I said. If we did like the native americans when a crime was
    comitted it would slow down dramaticly.
    judy tooley

  9. #159
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    Like I said. If we did like the native americans when a crime was
    comitted it would slow down dramaticly.
    judy tooley
    Hi guys.

    So you´re back to the well known middleaged punishment methods - an eye for an eye - using the torture methods followed by Andrew´s "slicing the body in parts" or drowning by force, perhaps even lynching (Geez Andrew???). You really scared me there.

    The case against the monster Josef Fritzl in most of your opinions, are now equal to the fanatic islamits and perpretators at the 9/11 WTC bombing by Al Queda (?) according to how, we should punish in both these cases. Torture them, cut them to pieces, drown them or as Ms. Judy says regarding the methods of the native americans, the indians, You´re found guilty by us - Torture him and then death will arrive automaticly during extreme pain, like they do it in China. No defence - excution two minutes after the conviction, bye, bye to the appeal courts, excactly what happened to Chauchesko and his wife in Rumania, shot at the neck two minutes after conviction.

    This is your judgement in both cases?

    I agree with Muza, who spoke it so eloquantly, there has to be a huge difference for these two scenarios of crimes. One is highly political, one ideologi against another. The Fritzl case is one "human being" (I can hartly say it "human being" about this guy) at the same time a father, who deliberately exercised mental and physical torture against his own family and convicted his children to confinement - in the dark for years on end.

    Interesting opinions from you all.

    I am glad that none of you guys are the judges in this case against Josef Fritzl, since the investigations in Amstetten have not finished yet, the court case has not even started, and his daughter, the mother of his children, still in a coma at the hospital.

    Honestly dear Corno Dolce, I don´t think you have to fear that Josef Fritzl will ever achieve martyrdom, like the jews achieved martyrdom at the Colleseum, when the Roman Empire fet them to the lions for fun and the "show", for the citizens of Rome, itself. As for the Al Queda, they payed with their own lives during 9/11, like the Kamicaze pilots of Japan did it during the WWII in the Pacific Ocean and at Pearl Harbour in honor of the emperor of Japan.

    Let´s leave the trial, the conviction and judgement day against the monster Josef Fritzl for the Austrian Criminal Court, when the police has finished the investigations after Austrian law. I believe they are not even half way through, and more people, more victims of rape or other pedophelic cruelties from Hr. Josef Fritzl will possibly come forward and give new evidence in the following weeks maybe even months, which in it´s own way is torture to herr Fritzl - So there will be no martyrdom for Herr Fritzl - wouldn´t ya say?

    The Al Queda however, I would agree with you guys that in some parts of this world close to the Arabian counties in the Middle East, Osama bin Laden reached martymdom years ago, since he is still at large, which is why the entire coalition of 28 countries all went to Iraq in loyalty to the USA to catch him and bring him and his fanatic islamits to justice. According to the US intelligence, he was in Iraq blah, blah, blah. So we all left the Taliban in Afghanistan for a so far 5 years of hollidays, so they could recrute new terrorists without being desturbed by any western military forces. Due to the invation of Iraq, three months later, there were suddenly 60.000 new terrorists world wide according to 80 international anti-terror agencies - all of them possible martyrs? We created all of them, when we invaded the wrong country of Iraq.

    About the death penalty and the middleaged torture towards being a believer in Christianity, it says in the 10 commandments "Thou shall not kill". I wrote about it earlier and why the democratical EU, Muza possibly and I personally will not reimplement the death penalty or torture for that matter. They are both of them methods that belong to the past time history, France 1789 and further back to the days of the famous Roman Catholic Church punishment system - the Court of the Inquisition, including long time heavy torture and loss of life at the fire in full public in front of the church or the Town Hall or the Queen of England´s palace, to show the common population how the Catholic Church punished the lower ranking believers and common citizens, even some of their own prists was tortured and burned to death. Of course talking about pedophiles, the Roman Catholic Church has been a regular competitor to other pedophiles for the past thousand years. One scandal after the next, where the Pope all the way from Rome decided to cover it up - the Roman Catholic way.

    But then again in the past the Roman Catholic Church was the power behind any political discission, they had full controle of the Royal families in all of Europe, and they could read and write to understand the scriptures, which no ordinary man nor woman could.

    It´s a matter of principles of law. If we loosen up on principles of punishment to criminals, we might as well throw the entire system of the national criminal courts and any penal code system out the same way as with - the water of the baby. We have to show, that no matter what crime has been done, we can not alowe ourselves to stoop to the same inhuman eveil ways of the Middle Ages and those of Herr Josef Fritzl or the Al Queda - to act ourselves spontanously like we are the judges.

    I hope for the children that they somehow can live on, and don´t feel any whatsoever shame nor guilt.

    If you guys remember the Stockholm Syndrom, entitled after a kidnapping of the staff in a bank in Sweden - Clark Olofsson was the main controling person in this kidnapping. In this crime, the prisoners in the bank, turned to defend their enemy their captures Clark Olofsson and his gang against the police, because he more or less hypnotised all the victims to support him.

    I hope the victims of Josef Fritzl will receive all the care they have never had, so they will never feel sorry for Herr Josef Fritzl and defend him, who has to be convicted to life imprisonment in total isolation under the supervision of psyciatrists and other scientific personel, to study him like we study animals at the ZOO - IMHO. But then again, I am not the judge either.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-18-2008 at 18:51.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  10. #160
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    There was news today about another nutcase. This guy was on a
    Grayhound bus when he stabbed the person next to him. I don't
    remember what happened afterwords. This bus was in Canada on it's
    way to New York. The driver didn't stop the bus until he heard this
    blood curling scream. Maybe someone else was able to read more.
    judy tooley

  11. #161
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Mat's Avatar
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    I heard about this, Judy. You can read more here. That's terrible, indeed.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.
    -- Victor Hugo


  12. #162
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    What do you think will happen to this guy?
    judy tooley

  13. #163
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Mat's Avatar
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    Hard to tell. The article says he's been charged with second-degree murder, so he'll go to the prison, I guess. The question is for how long?
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.
    -- Victor Hugo


  14. #164
    Rear Admiral Appassionata greatcyber's Avatar
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    At least the poor victim was asleep, listening to his iPod when he was stabbed and decapitated. So, maybe the first stab killed him and he didn't feel much pain...one can only hope. I must say, though, this is quite rare on the news in Canada. In 9 months there have been very few violent crimes reported and most occur in Toronto. This was on the west coast. Still, it pales in comparison with what one sees on the news from out of the country.

    Stephen

  15. #165
    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    That's a really horrid news report ... stabbing the poor bastard was bad enough but decapitating him ... Christ what's the world coming to, just awful.

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