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Thread: Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts

  1. #76
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    America wouldn't have all of the racism wouldn't have started if our
    ancesters had not have captured all of the africans and made slaves
    of them and the same goes for the way our ancesters did the Native
    Americans. The indians. What the history books won't tell our school
    kids is that when even Columbus came over he and some of his crew
    killed hundreds of indians and what they left behind became ill from
    the dease cought from the spanish explorers. Down there you had
    the Aztec, the Mayan, and Incas. Masuma was the last king of the
    Aztecs and was killed by the europian spanish when they came over
    here with a catholic priest I might add.
    judy tooley

  2. #77
    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    Judy,

    I can find no reference to an Aztec king named Masuma, what's your source. Also, the Spanish didn't just "come over with a catholic priest" as you state, they had four waves of migration from Europe to the Americas.

    Would love to know more about your mysterious Aztec king.

    Here's an extract that mentions Moctezuma, I assume it whom you are refering. He was not killed by the Spanish, but rather killed by his own people.

    In the subsequent battles with the Spaniards after Cortés' return, Moctezuma was killed. The details of his death are unknown: different versions of his demise are given by different sources.
    In his Historia, Bernal Díaz del Castillo states that on July 1, 1520, the Spanish forced Moctezuma to appear on the balcony of his palace, appealing to his countrymen to retreat. The people were appalled by their emperor's complicity and pelted him with rocks and darts. He died a short time after that. Bernal Díaz gives this account:
    Montezuma was hit by three stones, one on the head, one on the arm, and one on the leg; and though they begged him to have his wounds dressed and eat some food and spoke very kindly to him, he refused. Then quite unexpectedly we were told that he was dead.
    Last edited by Contratrombone64; May-02-2008 at 00:58.

  3. #78
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Hi Muza,

    It was Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia who assaulted a Capitol Hill Police Officer at the Security Cordon. For her pugilist antics she was not awarded another term in office by her constituency. She thought she was above the law by virtue of being a Congressperson - alas, such was not the case. Good riddance to bad rubbish!!!

    Cheers,

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  4. #79
    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    To all concerned:

    I am not having a fight with Intet - just a disagreement for which I have apologised. It was a disagreement that I let escalate too far and so I am at fault and accept responsibility for my actions.

    This issue is now closed.

    CD
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

  5. #80
    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    This forum is a great place because we can all discuss things in a (mostly) humourous way, and occasionally with passion.

    The fact that personalities occasionally clash is what is to be expected and makes it a nice and interesting place to spend time. So long as our stouches don't become really publically personal.

    My two cent's worth.

    All I can say about Corno Dolce and Intet is ... I wouldn't fight with Vikings, they're too strong!!

  6. #81
    Rear Admiral Appassionata Muza's Avatar
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    Hi Corno,

    Good riddance, I agree!
    Why waste money on psychotherapy when you can listen to the B Minor Mass? ~Michael Torke

  7. #82
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corno Dolce View Post
    I apologise to my brother Intet for my letting the misunderstanding betwixt us get so far.

    Humbly,

    CD
    Dear friend Corno Dolce

    To use your own expression - It´s water over the dam, all forgotten.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  8. #83
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    Hi Intet,

    Thanks for the reminder about the question, and I apologize for not answering it sooner.

    This snippet, taken from an article dated December, 2003, sums up the ACLU's position as it relates to Sheriff Joe Arpaio and the tent city jail:

    "Sheriff Arpaio's practices and policies not only harm the low-level offenders incarcerated in the jail, but pre-trial detainees who cannot go home only because they are too poor to post bail," stated Eleanor Eisenberg, Executive Director of the ACLU of Arizona. "It is our belief that detainees who have not even had a trial yet are entitled to a high degree of security and decent treatment."

    The full article can be found here on the ACLU website.

    (Disclaimer: I am not a member of the ACLU nor do I support their views.)


    Makes one wonder whatever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty" (?)
    Master Krummhorn

    (I never had you figured out to be a possible supporter of the ACLU , so Don´t you worry - be happy!!).

    Thank you dear sir.

    In the link to the article you provided for me about the reaction from the ACLU, the expression "The toughest Sheriff in America", equals the title of the TV program, I related to in a former post of mine having seen on Danish TV.

    "The best man for the job", is an expression often used in the USA, and Sheriff Arpaio seems to be the best man for the job, in my book. Prison time should not be confused with a vacation on a hotel, or watching the Playboy Channel during nights, which he has shown - it´s not. His job is not to be popular among the prisoners and with the disciples of the Human Right´s.

    However, popular he is among the citizens of his safe local neighbourhood, going on to be re-elected for the 5. time for 4 more years already having done 4 times 4 years, according to you Master Krummhorn, if I understand you correctly. He should have the OSCAR, if there was an OSCAR for providing safety for the local community, while running a prison for crooks who have offended fellow Americans on a large scale of crimes. If you do the crime, you have to do the time.

    How many police forces or local prisons around the planet has the support from the local community? I know the entire Danish police force does not. He and his staff of guards have provided a system where everyone equally are under constant supervision/controle in chains, because he obviously is - The best man for the job.

    If the ACLU is so concerned with his prison system and review it the way the do, all they have to do is to look at 47 million americans, who are houseless and living on the streets of every major city in USA, forgotten - erased from the American Dream and the Civil Rights of The American Constitution. They are much worse off than any of these prisoners in his prison. They get a shower every day, three meals per day, physical excerzise and they work every day. Work, which to many Americans, who has never offended the laws of your country - is but a dream.

    "They live in tents" the ACLU claims. So what? American soldiers live in tents, this is not against the Human Right´s.

    In my book (as a foreignor from Demark), whether one is a Democrat or a Republican in the USA, do not fight this politically and make it into a hockwash. They should all stand up from their chairs and give applause for Mr. Arpaio for not just talking about changing the prison system, like they on the Hill in D.C. have talked, talked and then talked some more for decades about social reforms in the USA, but never actually done anything to achieve it. They should give him the economical resources to expand his ideas on prison time in Arizona first, and then the USA - end of story.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-02-2008 at 18:36.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  9. #84
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contratrombone64 View Post
    This forum is a great place because we can all discuss things in a (mostly) humourous way, and occasionally with passion.

    The fact that personalities occasionally clash is what is to be expected and makes it a nice and interesting place to spend time. So long as our stouches don't become really publically personal.

    My two cent's worth.

    All I can say about Corno Dolce and Intet is ... I wouldn't fight with Vikings, they're too strong!!
    CT64

    Even if some of the Danish Vikings these days use a cain, you may fart on that, to stay with your own language from another thread!!
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-02-2008 at 12:39.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  10. #85
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Up-date on the monster of sexual abuse, rape and false imprissonment Herr Josef Fritzl from the city of Amstetten, Austria:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...550483,00.html

    The police in Amstetten will most likely procecute Herr Josef Fritzl on three accusations:

    1. False imprissonment
    2. Rape
    3. Pedophilism

    In Austria according to the penal code of the Austrian Justice Department these three accusations, will - if he is convicted - bring him at the most 15 years imprissonment, to which he will serve 8-10 years at the most.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  11. #86
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muza View Post
    Yeah, people get wrongly accused and that is one problem - but that is not the problem of punishment, that is the problem of steps that happen before punishment - police investigation, trials. Yes, thats horrible, but thats an exception to the rule, not the rule. I bet the number of wrongly accused is very very small.

    To answer your questions, I really dont know. In my personal outlook (which I know is a bit different from the rest), I do not think that criminals can be rehabilitated (and Im not talking about car jackers, petty theft, I mean more of rapists, pedophiles, murderers). I think the problem is mental, and no amount of physical activity or whatever is going to change that. And that being said - I feel very shady about letting those people back into society.

    Take this Austrian bastard for instance. Wasnt it you who mentioned that this horrible crime was not his first sexual offense? He was most likely responsible for raping some other child? The crimes do not stop! And should I add - they get more and more vicious every time. First it was someone else's kid, then it was his own kid....locked up and raped for years and years. If the old f..t wasnt so damn old, I bet he would have moved on to his grandkids next, and God knows what after that!

    These people should not, should not be brought back to society. As for althernatives to locking them up for life - we do have them - they are called death penalties, and they should be used more often! And they do work.
    I do think that there is hope for those criminals who have committed less serious offenses though. I think they can potentially be rehabilitated, but definitely not in our prisions. In a prison focused on order and labor, like Joe Arpaios. But definitely not the US prisons, where on one side criminal can "chill" all day, but on the other side there is drugs, disorder, and violence, which I think only develop killer instincts and make a stronger criminal.

    Who should decide it? Ideally, thats what we have a judge and jury for, but that hasnt been working too well.

    As for the revolution comment - I will disagree. I think in a society which has increasingly been going left, one person who takes of and suddenly goes right is all it takes to start a revolution. One man is enough. Now, i didnt say that we are having a revolution - no. but its enough to start one. If one man does that - more and more will follow.
    Muza dear Thank you for your answer.

    As I´ve already stated, I do not disagree with you. What´s wrong with the European prison system and the Courts in Europe and Denmark are, they often almost apologize on behalf of the perpretator. Because children are often left without any rights at all.

    Just think of the Human Trafficking, which has become a world wide problem for any country in the West as in the East to Africa and the Northern Finland since the 1990´s, which have but one issue for the traffickers and the people, who has the money to put it in motion. To make as much money as possible creating new young women and children to be sexual victims in brothels, for videos/DVD´s of pornography, sexual abuse as private sex slaves at home and shown on webcams. throughout the world on the internet possibly beaten.

    In my own country Denmark, a male pedagog in the socalled Beder-case last year being convicted and sentenced for 2 1/2 years after having had oral sex and other kinds of sexual abuse with 24 children from a kindergarden, being sent to a new specially built prison for pedophiles outside the range of ordinary prisoners, of course payed for by the Danish taxpayers - is rediculous. 2 1/2 years is the ordinary conviction and sentence for robbing a shop without a weapon.

    Knowing that these children will react differently. Some will grow up with nightmares, anxiety attacks, fear of being touched at all, the emotion of quilt, not wanting to have close relations with anyone, being afraid of having sex, wishing to commit suicide attempts, turning into alcohol and drugs abuse, never to be able to achieve an education or having a job etc. etc. etc.

    A life which should have had possibilities, but ended by a jerk with none whatsoever respect of children, the very same children he was supposed to take care of as an educated pedagog so they could all evolve to be ordinary peaceful responsable citizens.

    This Danish freak should have been sentenced for life, with no opportunity of parole.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-02-2008 at 13:48.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  12. #87
    Commodore con Forza Andrew Roussak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intet-at-tabe View Post

    In Austria according to the penal code of the Austrian Justice Department these three accusations, will - if he is convicted - bring him at the most 15 years imprissonment, to which he will serve 8-10 years at the most.
    Pretty mild, I would say. The guy deserves the gallows - three times.
    Last edited by Andrew Roussak; May-02-2008 at 15:29.
    "Once you have tasted flight, you will ever walk with your eyes turned skywards; for there you have been, and there you long to return." - Leonardo Da Vinci


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  13. #88
    Commodore con Forza Andrew Roussak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muza View Post

    To answer your questions, I really dont know. In my personal outlook (which I know is a bit different from the rest), I do not think that criminals can be rehabilitated (and Im not talking about car jackers, petty theft, I mean more of rapists, pedophiles, murderers). I think the problem is mental, and no amount of physical activity or whatever is going to change that. And that being said - I feel very shady about letting those people back into society.

    Take this Austrian bastard for instance. Wasnt it you who mentioned that this horrible crime was not his first sexual offense? He was most likely responsible for raping some other child? The crimes do not stop! And should I add - they get more and more vicious every time. First it was someone else's kid, then it was his own kid....locked up and raped for years and years. If the old f..t wasnt so damn old, I bet he would have moved on to his grandkids next, and God knows what after that!

    These people should not, should not be brought back to society. As for althernatives to locking them up for life - we do have them - they are called death penalties, and they should be used more often! And they do work.
    I do think that there is hope for those criminals who have committed less serious offenses though. I think they can potentially be rehabilitated, but definitely not in our prisions. In a prison focused on order and labor, like Joe Arpaios. But definitely not the US prisons, where on one side criminal can "chill" all day, but on the other side there is drugs, disorder, and violence, which I think only develop killer instincts and make a stronger criminal.
    Muza,

    I actually quite agree with your views. Such guys can not be corrected, so a life imprisonment is an obvious solution.

    Concerning death penalty - well , rather spontaneously and emotionally I would also say - in some cases this would be an appropriate measure , like in case of Herr Fritzl, or those who were involved in 9.11., etc. But, I believe that the death penalties are restricted in EU not because the goverments have a sympathy for criminals. It is more about the society itself - EU wants to build up a society based on all-common human values, and death penalty is not compatible with it. I think generally this approach works pretty good.

    But, of course, such mild penalties ( as Intet-at-tabe means, Herr Fritzl may get only 15 yrs....) are a crying injustice too. I just don't want to believe it they may let him go that easily. Let's look what will happen in this case.
    "Once you have tasted flight, you will ever walk with your eyes turned skywards; for there you have been, and there you long to return." - Leonardo Da Vinci


    www.andrew-roussak.com

  14. #89
    Admiral Maestoso marval's Avatar
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    The Austrian authorities are trying to get the law changed, so that he never gets out.

    Also it was reported in today's newspaper, that his wife took food down to the cellar, and that food was ordered in the poor daughter's name. So now tell us Mrs Fritzl that you didn't know what was going on.

    In the hospital they have made a special dark place, so that the released children will feel at home, until they get used to proper daylight.


    Margaret

  15. #90
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Hi Andrew

    I agree with you in your estiments of the EU laws. We have decided years ago in the beginning of the 1970´s:

    1) We won´t tolerate torture of human beings, political prisoners or any other prisoner - one of the reason we won´t accept Turkey as a new member of the EU.
    2) We won´t accept nations, who do not approve of and keep the rules of the Human Rights.
    3) We won´t accept countries, who perform the death penalty, because we basicly believe it´s a Middle Aged behaviour, which do not belong in a modern democratical country.

    So of course, we won´t and can´t change the rules and laws within the EU, that we have all worked for for so many years, because of a depraved perverted case like this one - however unfortunate for the victims of the monster Herr Josef Fritzl, described buy the Austrian police as a very dominating character with no integrity, no etics, no morals and no remorse to what he has done.

    But 15 years imprissonment, probably reduced to between 8-10 for good behaviour (while in prison) is rediculous, and it certainly does not scare anyone else for doing the same crime as Herr Josef Fritzl. We have to wait and see.

    He did his perverted controle-freak hidden behaviour of and victimising his entire family for 24 years without being disclosed. Had it not been for one of the children in the basement, who had to be rushed to hospital with respiratory problems, then who knows, if we would ever have become vitnesses to the current monster from Amstetten, Austria - Herr Josef Fritzl?
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-02-2008 at 18:30.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

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