True believers are murderers, according to some

[sunwaiter]

well, folks, can you only imagine what it would be if nation leaders sorted out diplomatic issues the way you do here? thank you for bringing proofs that all is not lost after all!

i hope this day is already great for you all.

morning track: laurent garnier - first reaction

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha sunwaiter,

Even though there may be differences in thought and thinking patterns there is lots more that unifies us imho.

Cheerio,

CD

 

[Brabo]

Brabo[/quote]
Brabo wrote, “Faith is believing without seeing“.

JHC replied, "This is what has been called 'Blind Faith' earlier in the post, I agree with this. You also say “Faith also attempts to seek for any proof that may back up such faith” How do you do this? We may be at cross purposes here?"

Of course, I would argue that "blind faith" is overstating the fact that all faith is, by its very nature "blind", inasmuch that it encapsulates believing without seeing, without evidence, without proof, &tc. And, yes, I think that you are at cross purposes with my statement. The statement needs no further footnotes as it is plain what I meant. So, other than repeating myself, or rewording the same meaning, I believe that I have exhausted the concept that "everyone with faith would also (continue to) look, search if you like, for some kind of evidence or proof". Billions of words written by other theologians, better informed than myself, bear witness to this.

Brabo

 

[sunwaiter]

and i might add that Blind faith was a very good but too short-lived band. have you ever seen such a provocative sleeve?

 

[JHC]

I am sorry for the delay in replying but have been away at a concert.

Aloha J.H.C.

I'm so sorry that you got so hung up on my statement *It has to be* - My bad

That’s OK. It was that which made me reply

When I used the reference *spiritual* I meant that which is outside of ourselves - that which is not sentient but that which transcends matter, time, and space.

Gossamer!! Or are you thinking of another dimension?

Might I ask if there is there is no place in your mind for a faith system? If so then, what takes the place of faith/belief?

I don’t know if I have a “Faith” What is the difference between Faith and belief? My Faith/Belief is based on probability e.g. I believe that to-morrow will come but fully realise that it may not, what I do not believe in is a God as depicted by Religions, not to be confused with a Creator or Starter (forgive that crude word) the question for me is was the cosmos purposefully created, or did it just happen, or has it always been. I also have an interest in Cosmology as you can tell but not as well founded as yours.

Quoth Aristotle: *Nature abhors a vacuum.*

You are saying Nature has reasoning ability? Or perhaps Nature has Faith??

If you remove the idea of a faith/belief system, something will move in to fill that void. Now I bring in an example of non-faith/belief: Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve its diabolical goals, it must rule over a non-religious and non-national populace. It requires that both faith and nation be destroyed.

Don’t mistake Faith for Hope
I should have chosen “Parmenides” as a user name

ps. I believe that in the Universe we are alone. The Eternal One has created the proper conditions for carbon-based life-forms to survive. And we are living on that planet. I take it on faith that we are alone. But being scientifically minded I gladly use the tools of Math and Physics to explore further. Faith and Science are not mutually exclusive. To dogmatically defend such is a risible enterprise.

I just can not reply to that, but it could make for an interesting debate on a separate thread

pps. Can you then prove to me that we are not alone?

No, Can you prove that we are alone, Ha Ha,but as the Lady said "If we are alone its an awful waste of space"

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha J.H.C.

Just a brief answer from me:

The phrase from Aristotle expresses the idea that empty or unfilled spaces are unnatural as they go against the laws of nature and physics.

I see Faith, Hope, and Love as a Trinitarian aspect.

If I can prove that we are alone? I have yet to see evidence that we are not alone. I believe and take it on Faith that we are alone since we as humans are so frightfully and wonderfully made.

Excuse me - now I must go on:

*An awful waste of space* - that has got to be the most ignorant statement yet uttered. Gamma Ray Bursts are a field of research that interests me greatly because they can be used to help us gauge and understand the distances involved in the Universe. GRB's are the most powerfully destructive forces in the Universe. The very fact that they exist as do Galaxies tells me that there is no awful waste of space.

Heaven forbid that a GRB were to explode in our neighborhood - e.g. at the distance of Proxima Centauri - this whole earth would be instantly atomized. Or when two Galaxies collide - the tidal forces tear stellar matter apart. There is so much that we humans don't understand about what is happening in the Cosmos.

Yet, here we are, in our home, apartments, or other types of domiciles - eating, drinking, making merry, doing a job, school, career or vocation - doing all things human whilst all that violence is taking place in the Cosmos. And some have then the temerity to say that all what is taking place in the Cosmos is just a crap shoot? Frankly, I don't have the faith for that.

Rant: Off!!!

Cheerio,

CD

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Thanks god I'm an athiest.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::trp::trp::trp::trp::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: on CT64

That is about the funniest joke of pure contradiction, I have ever read in the MIMF - at all. ROTFLMAO...

DUCE POINT!!

 

[sunwaiter]

HI everybody.

i believe in this day, that we call september 19, 2008.

how is it going?

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha sunwaiter,

The top of the morning to ya! And now I turn in for a good sleep.

Goodnight dear MIMF'ers wherever you are

Cheerio,

CD

 

[JHC]

Top of the Morning to you Corno Dolce

Just a couple of points,
You take it on faith that we are alone but require proof that we are not alone.ummmm!.
You also say “we are so wonderfully made” so you are a believer of Intelligent Design and not evolution, again ummmm! Just out of curiosity if we are so wonderfully made, Why do we have so many construction and design defects?
You are fully aware of the size of our UV yet, The Eternal One created all of that just to put Adam and Eve on one Planet ???? Gosh
“A waste of space was not of my making but came from members of the Scientific community, and yes I am aware that some Scientists ? Do not agree with evolution.
You finish up by saying “some have then the temerity to say that all what is taking place in the Cosmos is just a crap shoot? Frankly, I don't have the faith for that.”
You are entitled to your beliefs, really none of us know, but it makes for interesting debate, Have a nice day

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha J.H.C.

Now you have piqued my curiosity. What, praytell, are those construction and design defects? This had better be good. Might you yourself, perchance, know then how to construct a human being without those construction and design defects?

Tell us how do you go about constructing the atoms, molecules, cells, protoplasms, DNA, tissues, ligaments, tendons, skeleton, muscles, skin, nerve system, the vital organs, all the components that go to make up a body without construction and design defects. Your posting before this one that I have written seems to imply that all the above just *happens by itself*.

You know me by now that I embrace Faith and Science as mutually inclusive. Science is a wonderful tool by which we can discover things and help mankind along the way.

Cheerio,

CD

 

[JHC]

Hail CD and Greetings, Before I reply to your comments can I ask, do you accept evolution or do you subscribe to the ID teachings?

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha J.H.C.

No need to *hail* me - I'm a working stiff :grin::grin::grin:

Now, in re to your question to me, lets be clear that I don't view ID as a Science. But I see it as a tool to help us understand a little better. I cannot just glibly close off modes of thought just because it doesn't follow the rules of a priori truth or a priori reasoning.

I take it on faith that God reaveals little snippets of His handiwork to those that put their trust in Him first. For some this is an impossibility - Yes, it is an impossibility because one cannot rationally explain it - It requires Faith. Faith cannot be quantified or qualified by use of Mathematical logic or computational Physics.

Now I await your answer in re to how do you put together a human being without construction and design defects.

Ok, the ball is in your court....

Cheerio,

CD

 

[JHC]

OK CD, so you have a foot in both camps , that makes sense, but you have not said that you accept evolution so perhaps you don‘t and you believe in God, this may makes it a bit more tricky to reach an agreement past experience says that we will not reach any agreement, however I will put my point of view, and for the record
I have never said that I could put together a human with out defects. I am not perfect, Yet.

Aloha J.H.C.

Now you have piqued my curiosity. What, praytell, are those construction and design defects? This had better be good. Might you yourself, perchance, know then how to construct a human being without those construction and design defects?

Come on be serious have I suggested that I could?

Tell us how do you go about constructing the atoms, molecules, cells, protoplasms, DNA, tissues, ligaments, tendons, skeleton, muscles, skin, nerve system, the vital organs, all the components that go to make up a body without construction and design defects. Your posting before this one that I have written seems to imply that all the above just *happens by itself*.

Please no red herrings , I am referring to you comment ”I believe and take it on Faith that we are alone since we as humans are so frightfully and wonderfully made.” I take part of that as meaning [our physical body is perfection]

So a few of the things that could have been designed better:
Bones that loose minerals after the age of 30
Discs that separate the Vertebrae are not so good at supporting our body and give a lot of problems for some even before old age
Blood veins that twist and become clogged easily, Varicose Veins. clots
A short rib cage which leaves some internal organs unprotected
Muscles that loose mass and tone
Joints that wear prematurely
The position of the Trachea and Epiglotis, in fact one passage way for both air and food ?
The position of the Prostate
An Automobile with this many defects would face an immediate recall
So CD, do you really believe that if the Cosmos was made for Man alone, that the Creator would create such a large thing aka“Cosmos” just to put a creature (us) with quite a lot of flaws on one planet and then bugger off, excuse the colloquial
Also putting this planet at risk from the GRB that you mention is a bit careless.
Info taken from various forums, Scientific American, and live discussions with Doctors. Surgeons and Veterinarians
Regards JHC

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha J.H.C.

I will not give you red herrings :grin::grin::grin:

Since you point out the construction and design defects, It usually then falls on the critiquer to come up with an alternative working solution. Even with all the technology and science we still don't build a human body. In regards to GRB's they are usually several billion light-years from us so we don't have to directly worry about being atomised in an instant, yet!

You say I don't accept evolution. No, I don't accept it as a dogmatic fact since it is a human thought construct filled with as many holes as swiss cheese. Yes, certain species over time develop or *evolve* resistance to certain insecticides or resistance to various doses of radiation.

Ok, you have through uncited research material made points about certain things about the body such as clogged vessels, degenerative musculo-skeletal systems and lack of skeletal protection for certain vital organs but what is then the solution? How is one going to *program* the DNA so that these *defects* become non-existent?

More later...

Cheerio,

CD

 

[JHC]

Aloha J.H.C.

I will not give you red herrings :grin::grin::grin:

Since you point out the construction and design defects, It usually then falls on the critiquer to come up with an alternative working solution. Even with all the technology and science we still don't build a human body. In regards to GRB's they are usually several billion light-years from us so we don't have to directly worry about being atomised in an instant, yet!

You asked what the defects were, I have given a few there are many more but it is pointless going into those, and it is not up to me to improve the human model that is beyond my sphere of expertise, I do have a few lay mans ideas but that would only provide you with a few laughs.
I was joking about the GRBs

You say I don't accept evolution. No, I don't accept it as a dogmatic fact since it is a human thought construct filled with as many holes as swiss cheese.

So is religion

Yes, certain species over time develop or *evolve* resistance to certain insecticides or resistance to various doses of radiation.

Ok, you have through uncited research material made points about certain things about the body such as clogged vessels, degenerative musculo-skeletal systems and lack of skeletal protection for certain vital organs but what is then the solution? How is one going to *program* the DNA so that these *defects* become non-existent?

Again this is not up to me, at the moment we apply fixes perhaps this will always be the case, but it is something that will keep the back room busy for a while yet.

Regards JHC

 

[sunwaiter]

what if someday we don't have a question to be answered anymore? we might wonder if we prefer swiss cheese or ceddar.

as for me, i don't like cheese at all. maybe i'm not making any point here, but i thought it was cool to write this down.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha sunwaiter,

As mortal human beings it is almost a given that we will question or find questions to be asked and answered - Its like we are *hardwired*, have it in out DNA....

Cheerio,

CD

 

[sunwaiter]

yep. that's what i tried to state earlier on this thread, u sure remember that. it's fine with me having questions with or without answers all along my life.

 

[sunwaiter]

but i still can't swallow any cheese