What happened to Discipline?

JLS

Member
I just noticed this on a second read through:

Buttercup89 said:
Personally I am very much for discipline, however I think that violent parents are a terrible example for their children, and beating your child in the name of discipline is still violence. I am very much for not spoiling children and for giving them restrictions, but violence is wrong. It is just as wrong to beat your child as it is to beat your wife, because your child too is a human being.

At least there is a tiny bit of hope in this thread full of ignorance.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
JLS,

Your implying that I accept gross physical abuse leaves me breathless. I cannot answer for your attestations, since we obviously don't know one another from every Tom, Dick, and Harry. Methinks that some of the statements by other VOL member's experiences in childhood can have been overly dramatised, however, since neither you nor I were there at that time and place we simply cannot know, n'est-ce pas? I can attest to my fanny having been fanned by my father when I did something really stupid. But such stupidity was seldom repeated.

Yes, it can be a traumatic experience for a child to get whacks on the fanny - when the child is caught in the act of real stupidity - Yes, there is a fine line between physical abuse and whacks on the fanny. Truly, physical abuse is inhumane and illegal. But there comes a time when a misbehaving child needs to know that their behaviour is unacceptable, either by their parents or by society.

Since this is an Open Debate Forum anyone can interject and give their $0.03 cents worth, either from a child psychologist, parent, social worker, law enforcement, judicial, or other point of view. My point is that each and every parent has to be aware of their Responsibilities. I have four infant children who are already exhibiting their very own individual characteristics. Each one is very diffferent - I have to be fair to all of them - I have to prepare them for life, that when they are grown up they will be able to make the right decisions and not become entangled with law enforcement - that they will make decisions with Love and Respect for others.

Herein endeth my homily...Thanx be to God!

Humbly,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

JLS

Member
Your implying that I accept gross physical abuse leaves me breathless. I cannot answer for your attestations, since we obviously don't know one another from every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

I may not know you personally, CD, but I do know that you have actively participated in this thread, have seen these posts and said nothing. Your complacency is just as bad as actually supporting them. How will things change if good people don't speak up?

Methinks that some of the statements by other VOL member's experiences in childhood can have been overly dramatised, however, since neither you nor I were there at that time and place we simply cannot know, n'est-ce pas?

This is your excuse? You've decided not to believe them? Well, assuming they're not making things up, what do you think about their parents?

I can attest to my fanny having been fanned by my father when I did something really stupid. But such stupidity was seldom repeated.

Yes, it can be a traumatic experience for a child to get whacks on the fanny - when the child is caught in the act of real stupidity - Yes, there is a fine line between physical abuse and whacks on the fanny. Truly, physical abuse is inhumane and illegal.

I'm not seeing this line people keep asserting is there. I ask you politely what I asked in a previous post:

Why is one "inhumane and illegal" while the other utterly acceptable? Isn't the former merely a more aggressive form of the latter?

But there comes a time when a misbehaving child needs to know that their behaviour is unacceptable, either by their parents or by society.

Agreed. What I don't understand is how inflicting trauma on them teaches them this. How on earth is hitting someone a learning process? There are no words in a physical attack. There are no thoughts of any kind. How can there be a positive lesson? All that happens when you spank a child is the association of physical and emotional suffering with a specific act and that the people who the child is dependent on for safety and nurturing is violating that trust. The child learns absolutely nothing about why the act was wrong or unacceptable. Because they associate suffering with that act, they may avoid it for a short time or find better ways to not get caught, but they have certainly learned nothing constructive from you about it and with each attack you have lost a little something very dear between you and your child.

My point is that each and every parent has to be aware of their Responsibilities. I have four infant children who are already exhibiting their very own individual characteristics. Each one is very diffferent - I have to be fair to all of them - I have to prepare them for life, that when they are grown up they will be able to make the right decisions and not become entangled with law enforcement

I completely agree. But CD, if what I have said about spanking turns out to be true, wouldn't you, as a responsible new parent, want to know? If spanking your children is the worst way to teach them what it means to be good people, and is actually going to make it liklier that they will end up in trouble, isn't that something you want to know?

that they will make decisions with Love and Respect for others.

Exactly.
 

jhnbrbr

New member
I'm not seeing this line people keep asserting is there.

Is there a line between
a) sticking a carving knife in a child's arm and
b) sticking a hypodermic syringe in a child's arm?
Of course there is!

Is there a line between
a) infecting a child with a virulent disease and
b) infecting it with a mild form of the disease as a vaccine?
Of course there is!

Is there a line between
a) a punch to a child's head given in anger and entailing a risk of injury and
b) a slap to a child's buttocks given for the child's own good and entailing no risk of injury whatsoever?

Of course there is! Just because two occurences have certain features in common does not make them one and the same. I do not believe the relatively recent tendency to describe the second occurence as "violent" is either honest or helpful. We use different words to distinguish between each end of the spectrum -we don't say blue is just another case of red. If I was to tell you that two men were having a violent confrontation in the street, you would not expect to go out and find them slapping each other about the buttocks! Equally, I could never in a million years accept that my infant teacher of long ago, Mrs S, who was adored by every child who ever knew her, was a violent person.

It could still be true that spanking is misguided, but I have yet to be fully convinced because the experts (and JLS) seem to me to be exaggerating the risks (but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken).

There are no words in a physical attack. There are no thoughts of any kind. How can there be a positive lesson?

This again is a completely invalid argument, because no sensible person would punish a child (by any means) unless the reason for the punishment was fully inderstood.
 

JLS

Member
Is there a line between
a) sticking a carving knife in a child's arm and
b) sticking a hypodermic syringe in a child's arm?
Of course there is!

No, there isn't. The first is an attack, the second is a medical procedure.

Is there a line between
a) infecting a child with a virulent disease and
b) infecting it with a mild form of the disease as a vaccine?
Of course there is!

No, there isn't. The first is attempted murder, the second is a medical procedure.

Is there a line between
a) a punch to a child's head given in anger and entailing a risk of injury and
b) a slap to a child's buttocks given for the child's own good and entailing no risk of injury whatsoever?

There may be a difference in intent but that does not equate to a difference in the consequences. Neither of (b) in your first two examples result in anyone being harmed. You are assuming that no harm is done by spanking and then going on to argue that no harm is done. That is circular reasoning.

What you seem incapable of grasping is that this is not a matter of logic. We are speaking of the real world where looking with your eyes and seeing is how we get our results. Whenever anyone really looks at spanking, they find harm being done. It is that simple. You can choose to deny this reality all you want, but until you actually look with your own eyes, you are nothing but a willfully ignorant fool blindly supporting the harming of children. Why not be a decent person and simply look before believing instead of spending your life lying to yourself?

I do not believe the relatively recent tendency to describe the second occurence as "violent" is either honest or helpful.

Can you please tell me what your belief has to do with anything? What I am saying is either true or false, and I promise you it has nothing to do with what you believe. What is hard to believe is that you are stupid enough to blindly convince yourself of things on a personal whim and then accuse the thousands of truly honest people who have dedicated their entire lives to finding the truth to be dishonest. Amazing.

If I was to tell you that two men were having a violent confrontation in the street, you would not expect to go out and find them slapping each other about the buttocks!

I'm not sure if you're intentionally missing the point, or not, so I'll state it plainly:

The harm done by spanking children is not mainly physical. It is emotional and psychological. It is harm by virtue of the negative results on the child's behavior, their aggression, their impulsiveness, their ability to resolve issues without violence, to control their anger, to create stable and healthy relationships, and to engage with their own children in positive non-abusive ways.

All of these problems are very clear in every study done on this issue. If none of this were actually happening, there wouldn't be a problem. If you spank your kid once, but are the model parent otherwise, will these problems be an issue for your child? Of course not. One spanking has an almost negligible impact on a child. Almost. The more it is done, and the more aggressive the violence, the more these issues take hold.

I ask you...if this is true...if, and there are more effective ways to modify your child's behavior that don't have these effects on them...should spanking be done?

Equally, I could never in a million years accept that my infant teacher of long ago, Mrs S, who was adored by every child who ever knew her, was a violent person.

The fact that you refuse to accept anything that you don't like is nothing but willful ignorance. This is another example of your dishonesty. No one said that the occasional act of mild violence makes someone a violent person.

It could still be true that spanking is misguided, but I have yet to be fully convinced because the experts (and JLS) seem to me to be exaggerating the risks (but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken).

You actually believe that every single one of the thousands of people that have been studying this for decades is exaggerating? Do you honestly think this is possible?

This again is a completely invalid argument, because no sensible person would punish a child (by any means) unless the reason for the punishment was fully inderstood.

By this last comment, I can see that you are utterly dishonest regarding this issue. You are fully aware (unless you are mentally disabled) that parents get angry at their child's behavior, grab them, spank them, and send them on their way. But even if the parent spanks their child and also teaches them why what they did was wrong, the lesson still isn't in the spanking. :rolleyes:

but I accept this is only based on personal experience and I could be mistaken

If I ask you an honest question, will you give me an honest answer?

Why are you arguing with me about this?

You admit that you have no knowledge of this other than your own personal experience, yet you are convinced that you are right, despite the fact that all of the knowledge we have tells us that you are wrong. Why do you argue? Isn't the only reasonable thing for anyone to do is to suspend judgement until they know what the truth is? You don't know. Being convinced that you do in the face of real knowledge is nothing short of delusional.
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
I think it's time this thread was closed as it has by FAR outrun its useful purpose. I has now turned into an "I'm right" and "you're wrong" match between one individual and the rest of us.
 

rojo

(Ret)

JLS

Member
Thank you for that addition, rojo. There are so many parents who really don't know what to do about discipline. They fall back on spanking because they have never been presented with appropriate alternatives. Good links!

-----

I'm not claiming I'm right, CT. I'm claiming that the entire world of psychology, human development and science is right. Are you so blinded by your own need to deny that you may be mistaken about this that you would ask the admins to censor any further discussion? You would deny others the opportunity to learn something? If you are so annoyed by my attempt to educate, simply leave the thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
In response to receiving several notices regarding this particular discussion thread, we wish to point out that topics with strong contention are allowed as they spark interest, and thus discussion activity.
When the discussion turns into personal attacks of other members (ad-homs) we will intervene.

A reminder of the forum rules might be in order, too:

Guidelines for General Behavior
"Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«."

This thread will remain open.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
JLS,

May I ask if you are in posession of the Philosopher's Stone? Apparently you are trying to monopolise a thread where you spout off about everyone else being wrong and only you are right. I loved my father dearly just because he took the time and interest in my upbringing and teaching me wrong from right and paddled my behind when it was necessary. Furthermore, I refused to put him into a senior citizens home when he became infirm. I fed, clothed, bathed, gave physical therapy, and much else when he couldn't care for himself anymore.

I see too many elderly people whose children don't give a damn about them spend days, weeks, months, and years without ever seeing their children. I later find out that the children are just waiting for their parents to pop off so that they can claim their inheritance. The kids are spoiled brats and have never been taught to love, honor, and respect their parents and others, and authority.

My wife and I see differently than you in re to child rearing. Again, you and I were not there when certain commenters were getting 'torn into', busted teeth, limbs, and the like. In no way do I wish to minimise what can actually have happened. I truly empathise with those who have suffered terrible physical abuse inflicted by their parents.

You say that I am complacent? How do you know? Do you know how I spend my days or who I am in contact with? No! you don't. Nor do I know who you are in contact with or how you spend your days and thats because its none of my business. I have no problem if you think that I am an ass**** or worse.

On this site I take as well as I give - Many on this august of forums have many specialties which they may choose or not choose to divulge. Many are smarter than I am and I know that there is much that I do not know.

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Very well put CD.

The posts you reply to put me in mind of someone I knew who frequently said "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Honorable Dorsetmike,

The privilege of being a commenter on this forum is often very humbling for me - especially since there are so many finely intellectual people who are members of MIMF. Our Ms. Judy who started this thread had good intentions and she need not feel bad for having begun it. We all have had different childhood experiences.

Hopefully JLS is not too steamed with my retort and will continue to contribute commentary. As I mentioned before, there is much that I do not know and will never know but I am happy for the little I do know and for the graciousness of the many who share so freely on this forum so that I may grow in my knowlege base.

Respectfully yours,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

JLS

Member
Of course I'm not upset by your post. I am always willing to engage with people about issues that I believe are important. What I do take issue with, though, is dishonesty. I do not recall accusing you of being an Why? nor making any comment whatsoever about your relationship with your parents. Your last response to me was clearly a dodge. It has almost nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread. I asked you a very honest, very straightforward, and very pertinent question and you refused to acknowledge that it was even asked. I must assume from this that you are incapable of considering anything that puts your personal beliefs in question. This question goes right to the heart of this matter. It's answer is the very reason for this thread's existence. I'll ask again in the hopes that I am wrong about you, and everyone else in this thread:

If spanking your children harms them, do you want to know?

If you do not respond with a "yes", I wall take your answer to be "no" and we will both know what kind of a man you are.

I ask this question of everyone in this thread. Your answer will make it clear who you really are.
 

JLS

Member
The posts you reply to put me in mind of someone I knew who frequently said "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"

More dishonesty. Please show me what facts have been put forth by anyone other than me? That quote is the perfect description of my opponents, and your answer to my question will tell us whether it applies to you as well.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
As a child I was spanked, as a parent I spanked my kids, they in turn spanked theirs. Over recent years I have watched the behaviour and attitudes of youth deteriorate with each generation of do gooders, most of whom I suspect have no children of their own, wailing on about applying sanctions and similar useless deterrents.

In the days of school masters being able to administer a caning to the hands or bottom I never heard of pupils attacking staff. A detention is no deterrent, mostly it gives them a chance to do their homework.

In the animal world adults discipline their young by mild force, man has done the same for thousands of years, I have not heard any mention in history of youth behaving as they do now.

No spanking etc sounds very good on the surface but it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that it is not working as intended.

In my experience, a few light slaps or spanks administered in early years are usually sufficient to bring home the fact that doing what one is told is a good idea, as soon as the child is old enough to understand what parents mean when they say "no" or "do not" . At the same time the parent should explain why the behaviour is not acceptable.

First "offence" say "no" firmly and explain why you are saying "no"

Second offence within a short time, repeat the above a bit more firmly holding the child and making them meet your eye.

Third offence (again within a short time) repeat the "no" and give a sharp slap that will sting but not hard enough to mark. The quicker the slap or spank is given the better, so that the "offence" is associated with the "ouch".

Never raise your voice to a shout, never lose your temper. Always explain and ensure the child understands why the behaviour is not acceptable. Always discipline immediately, never come out with "wait till your daddy/mummy gets home"
 

Dorsetmike

Member
JLS I take strong offence at being called dishonest.

The most obvious facts to me can be seen in the behaviour of a great number of the younger members of present day so called civilisation.

Example, a man remonstrates with youths damaging his car, they set on him and he ends up severeley beaten in hospital.

Example three youths kick and beat a week old faun to death.

Example a young man in a bar breaks a bottle and grinds the end into the face of another who accidently nudged his elbow, the victim lost an eye and needed over 100 stitches.

This sort of behaviour is becoming more prevalent, almost common. I am not saying it could never have happened in the past, just that it never approached the level that now exists.
 

JLS

Member
JLS I take strong offence at being called dishonest.

The most obvious facts to me can be seen in the behaviour of a great number of the younger members of present day so called civilisation.

Example, a man remonstrates with youths damaging his car, they set on him and he ends up severeley beaten in hospital.

Example three youths kick and beat a week old faun to death.

Example a young man in a bar breaks a bottle and grinds the end into the face of another who accidently nudged his elbow, the victim lost an eye and needed over 100 stitches.

This sort of behaviour is becoming more prevalent, almost common. I am not saying it could never have happened in the past, just that it never approached the level that now exists.

That is your personal perception. Is it accurate? Do you have any rational reason to believe that crime is more rampant now than it was 100 years ago? If there has been a change, what is that change due to? Is it from a lack of discipline? Is it from an increase in population? Is it from the spread of urban development? Is it from continued industrialization? Is it from a rise in teenage pregnancy? Is it from a rise in child abuse? Is it from any number of countless other possibilities or a combination of some or all of these? Or perhaps it is only your personal perception and has no basis in reality. Perhaps crime hasn't risen in recent history and you simply believe it has. The simple fact that you hold a belief about this is dishonest, for you haven't looked to see the answer. You lie to yourself and in doing so lie to us when you speak of it.

Likewise, do you know that spanking children does no harm? Have you looked? If you haven't and hold any belief about it, then you are once again being dishonest in the very same way.

I ask you, then, to prove your honesty. Answer the question I posed in post#94...
 

JLS

Member
In the animal world adults discipline their young by mild force, man has done the same for thousands of years, I have not heard any mention in history of youth behaving as they do now.

As an aside, I'd like to point out just how absurdly false your beliefs are. Man has, throughout our history, been the single most violent and warlike species in the history of the world. We're the only species to engage in mass organized acts of violence against each other. We are the only species to wage war on each other, commit acts of torture on each other, and many other atrocities. Only a century ago, here in the States, it was perfectly legal to carry a gun and shoot each other down in the streets. How on earth could anyone possibly look at history and claim that violence is a recent phenomenon? Either you have absolutely no education(which I don't think is true), or you deceive yourself(which I think is the case).

A perfect example:

Since the tragedy at Columbine, school shootings have been shown in the media more and more. This has led people to believe that acts of violence in schools had increased. That is absolutely false. In the decade prior to Columbine, violent crime amongst youths had decreased every single year(according to the U.S. Department of Justice's own findings). School shootings had actually become less common. What had changed was that the media discovered that showing school shootings on tv meant higher ratings. People were thus led to believe that violence amongst youths had increased when in fact the truth was the opposite.
 
Last edited:

jhnbrbr

New member
The point is, JLS, that this is not a simple issue by any means, and there are powerful arguments on both sides, so that it is quite unacceptable to use words like "liar" and "dishonest" when people put forward a reasoned and balanced argument (as DorsetMike has just done) even if you disagree with it. If you were talking to your child, would you be as aggressive, disrespectful and judgemental as you are to your fellow forum members?

I do not have children and if I did I would aim not to spank them, but I'm not saying i never would. And to answer your question, of course I would want to know if it was harmful, and if I believed it was I would stop completely, but as things stand at present I do not consider the case proven either way.
 
Top