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Cochereau Improvisation...

Janne

New member
This is seven trips worse than Reubke, what is good in this?

A musical meltdown, perhaps a technical orgy but totaly meaningless music.

But it's my opinion of course :smirk:
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi Janne,

True, its not for everybody - did you listen to the second clip? It's quite soft...

Cheers,

CD :):):)
 

Janne

New member
Well, sometimes it is exciting to me, but I have problem with French improvisation art.

Latry plays in the same way as well.

But do not misunderstand me, it is incredible musicians, both of them. :)

 

Janne

New member
If we are honest, it's only other musicians who "understand" certain things that are played.

It's sad that it has become so. :cry:

This is the reasons why people not want to come and hear the "organ theology" today.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha Janne,

Well, the organ seems to have an indefatigable champion in the person of Cameron Carpenter who seems to be *wowing* grade-schoolers and adults everywhere he goes.

Cheers,

CD :):):)
 

acc

Member
Hi Janne,

Although I personally love Cochereau's improvisations (and the Reubke sonata, too), I can very well understand how you feel about them.

Maybe I can try to reconcile you with French improvisers by suggesting to listen to Michel Chapuis: he is no less of a genious than Cochereau, but his style is very different. Just type "michel chapuis" into Youtube's search field and you'll find quite a few.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
. . . Well, the organ seems to have an indefatigable champion in the person of Cameron Carpenter who seems to be *wowing* grade-schoolers and adults everywhere he goes , , ,

As does Felix Hell, too. Although rather conservative in style as compared to Cameron, Felix does show off his skills as a young organists quite amply.

Back to topic: I love these improvisations ... the lush and rich tones - and of course Cochereau is a masterful player. In my younger years I had the wonderful opportunity to hear him in recital here in the US (Los Angeles AGO event).
 
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Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha GrandMaster Krummhorn,

Did you know that Maitre Cochereau smoked ciggs like there was no tomorrow? He would always be seen with a cigg in his mouth. When he visited Honolulu in 1980, the organist/choirmaster of the local Anglican cathedral provided living quarters for the Maitre for one week. The organist/choirmaster and his wife mentioned to me that the Maitre practically smoked them out of their own house. Such incessant smoking most probably shortened his life.

Cheerio,

CD :):):)
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Greetings CD ...

No, I did not know that ... 60 years is way too young to fall of the organ bench permanently. Glad I quit that filthy habit 4 years ago.
 

dll927

New member
I've read more than once that "improvisation" seems to be part and parcel of French organ training. Yet, when I watch "You-tubes" of these guys (Latry, Roth, etc.), it seems to consist mostly of pullng all the stops and couplers and romping around in what often comes across as not all that musical. Do they know that organs also have soft stops??

Than there's the one about some organist asking the audience to name four or so notes, then proceeding to play something with them.

I guess what I'm' really saying is, does such activity outshine sitting down and really composing a work? It figures that musical works probably float around in the composers' minds before they commit them to paper, but is that the same as pretending to sit there and make something up?
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
aloha dll927,

I'll try to help - hopefully acc will also chime in if I'm mistaken: Improvisation at the console is very much a part of the organist's education at the conservatoires. If you have looked at the many different youtube vids where they improvise, you'll find them also using *soft stops*. Improvisation on a theme is an art form.

The artisan/organist will then apply his/her formal education in, among other things, theory, harmony, counterpoint, fugue and other sub-disciplines to craft the musical message. The Gregorian melody for the given Sunday and the section of the Mass plus the organist's skill, artistic, and personality are some factors that go into the improvisation.

If its the *sortie* = exit, then the organist might call on all the resources. They can begin PPP, progress to FFF, and then back to PPP or whatever their musical muse/mind leads them. Some organists will commit their improvisation to music, some don't. A very famous organist and composer was Charles Tournemire. A magnificent opus he composed is *L'Orgue Mystique* which assigned a suite(51 in all) for every Sunday in the Church year. Each suite is made up of improvisations on the Gregorian melodies for that Sunday. The GrandMaster JSBach improvised on old and new tunes, both sacred and secular, in his day, harmonised them, they got printed and they were performed by him and organists ever since.

So you see, much goes into improvisation but the dynamics will vary, depending on the organist and the situation. No two organists are alike and thankfully so. Each has his/her own artistic predilections/proclivities/skill/sensitivity and their own faith system and how it informs them and their output as a composer and a performer.

Cheers,

CD :):):)
 

dll927

New member
Which leads me to something I have always believed -- artistic ability, whether musical, painting, writing, or whatever, can be taught only up to a point. The rest is what we euphemistically call talent, and if that's not there, training can go only so far.

In another thread, I mentioned that it wasn't until around the middle of the 19th century that so-called "conservatories" came into existence. Prior to that, musical training was largely, in effect, an apprentice system. And most of the "classical" period composers were pretty much indentured servants to wealthy families - look at Haydn and the Esterhazy family. It might be interesting to wonder just how much those guys thought about writing music that would last for the ages. They were employed, whether by families, cities, or churches, to write music for current needs.

Then there's the whole realm of history and criticism. "Art history" seems to be largely a matter of learning to write in flowery language that nobody else can understand. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a photography hobbyist too, and when I read "Aperture" magazine's critiques of photo exhibitions, I sometimes feel the writers pieced together their writings off the cutting-room floor. Which brings up another of my beliefs - no "critic" is anything more than personal opinion. Professors largely regurgitate what they were taught when they were slaving for their Ph.D's.

I may sound somewhat cynical, but I'm still convinced that you can be "taught" only so far. The rest is research (which leads to more discoveries), work, and, to paraphrase Churchill, "blood, sweat and tears."
 
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Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Aloha dll927,

:lol::lol::lol: you make me laugh - Yes, the Ph.D's regurgitate what they were taught and what were the findings of their research - Yes, some writers piece together the droppings on the cutting-room floor and some composers have grafted a *modified* page from another composers work and called it their own creation - Aaaaccchhh!!! Such charlatans and scallywags :scold::scold::scold:

Truly and verily so - you can only be *taught so far*.

Cheers,

CD

ps: PHD = Permanent Head Damage, Post Hole Digger, Piled High and Deep. My late father who had a Ph.D from Yale and was a University professor said that one shall never employ a Ph.D to teach Elementary or High School students - the Ph.D's will only muck-up the thinking in the formative mind of a child.
 
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dll927

New member
I applaud your father, although there actually are such things as Ph.D's teaching in high schools. Maybe a bit out of place, but it sure beats the socks off of "education professors" who muck up the entire educational system with their latest whims. I'm a retired teacher who has never had much regard for "educationism". Classic case of those who can't teach teaching others "HOW" to teach.

I might add that my sister has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology - another questionable enterprise!!
 

acc

Member
I've read more than once that "improvisation" seems to be part and parcel of French organ training. Yet, when I watch "You-tubes" of these guys (Latry, Roth, etc.), it seems to consist mostly of pullng all the stops and couplers and romping around in what often comes across as not all that musical. Do they know that organs also have soft stops??

It is true that some of these French guys were/are somewhat addicted to the tutti. Cochereau certainly was: even in a beautiful Andante, he couldn't resist pulling the chamades at Notre-Dame. But that is not to say that he was unable to improvise meaningfully and musically without all these resources: quite the contrary is true, as is exemplified in this recording, made on a small 9-stop organ.

As for Youtube, there is also the question of what people decide to upload to it. The primary motivation for improvisation (at least in France) is its liturgical use. If an organist is as talented in improvising a beautifully soft Communion as a forceful Sortie, but youtubers prefer to upload only the latter, it's not the organist's fault!

Fortunately, one can also find nice and soft clips, such as here, here, here, here, here, and last but not least this three part improvisation (presenting many different facets of the instrument, including the tutti, but also many other things).

Listen also to Roth's and Choplin's CD improvisations, and you'll see that the soft/loud ratio is quite different from that on Youtube.

But to me, the most beautiful soft improvisations are still the Communions of Marcel Dupré on the A.A.A.M.D. and M.F. recordings: when I first heard them, I had tears in my eyes.
 

dll927

New member
To no surprise, professional musicians probably have a tendency to want to show off their talents and abilities. Why else would a certain Fox have had rhinestones on his shoes and sometimes had mirrors set up so the audience could see his antics? This is not to deny the talent, but where are their orders of importance?

Therefore, if the pipes are there, use them. And it always helps to play a "showy" piece rather than Franck's "Cantabile" -- better the romping of the "Final in B-flat"!!

Diane Bish tends to come across to me as a modern version of Virgil Fox - fast tempi and a certain amount of what can only be called flamboyance. But I don't deny she knows what she's doing. And I never see much mention of her in these forums, which I find rather interresting. But I'm not sure she is known for improvisation.

If anything, present-day people may have a better sense of 'public relations' than some of the older generations of musicians -- Vladimir Horowitz and Jascha Heifitz come to mind as being sort of taken with their own self-importance. Since a lot of their fame comes through recordings, it's also a matter of selling.

But I still say there's a difference between composition and improvisation.
 

acc

Member
To no surprise, professional musicians probably have a tendency to want to show off their talents and abilities. Why else would a certain Fox have had rhinestones on his shoes and sometimes had mirrors set up so the audience could see his antics? This is not to deny the talent, but where are their orders of importance?

Therefore, if the pipes are there, use them. And it always helps to play a "showy" piece rather than Franck's "Cantabile" -- better the romping of the "Final in B-flat"!!

It's not so clear to me if it's performers who tend to like playing all the stops or audiences who like to listen to all the stops. I guess we all have already noticed that people applaude much more readily and enthusiastically when a work ends fff. Or, worse, people applauding at the end of a fff mouvement when the work is not yet finished.

So for a performer, it's an eternal balancing act between the music he has to offer and what the audience wants to hear.
 

dll927

New member
You make a well-taken point. You can't sell it if people won't buy it. There has long been discussion about why audiences prefer "music by dead guys" over some of the more modern stuff. Maybe because it just sounds better.

And it's always nicer to end with a flourish. When the organist gets called back for an encore, "Sweet Hour of Prayer" won't substitute for the Little Fugue in G Minor.

There's an old saying that more people have been "saved" with the vox humana than any other stop in the organ. It also seems to have been one of Franck's favorite stops for softer passages. But it won't bring the house down at the end of a concert!!
 

pcnd5584

New member
This is seven trips worse than Reubke, what is good in this?

A musical meltdown, perhaps a technical orgy but totaly meaningless music.

But it's my opinion of course :smirk:

I can understand that Cochereau's improvisations are not to everyone's taste, however, I cannot agree that they constitute 'meaningless music'.

Cochereau had an extremely rich harmonic language. He also had an excellent undertanding of musical form. There are many of his recorded improvisations which are easier to listen to - indeed many of great beauty. I am happy to recommend some (mostly on CD), if you are interested in giving his music a second chance.

For the record, whilst Olivier Latry and, for that matter Philippe Léfébvre and Pierre Pincemaille all have a recognisably 'French' style of improvisation (for want of a convenient description), each has a unique and recognisable harmonic language and an equally individual stlye of playing. Michel Chapuis is certainly a good improviser - although I would not quite describe him as a genius. Marcel Dupré talking of his former student said "Pierre Cochereau is a phenomenon without equal in the history of the contemporary organ."
 
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